different v-mount!!!
09-21-05, 08:05 PM
#51
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Originally Posted by rotaryextreme
I don't think you are reading my posts carefully. Engine bay temp reduces significantly with a VMIC vs. SMIC and FMIC becuase the air existing the IC is a lot cooler than air existing the radiator. With the SMIC or FMIC, you have hotter air existing the radiator blasting into the engine bay so it will heat soak the intake plumbing more.
My customers have swapped to VMIC from large SMIC and FMIC and I have all the data already. All the values I posted are not compared to the stock IC. They are compared to the customers' previous setup.
Setup 1:
Before: T04Z single with HKS Type S IC w/ Koyo Radiator; intake temp, 35C, water temp 95C on a 65 F day
After: T0rZ with Monster Vmount, intake temp 21C, water temp 82C on a 65F day
Setup 2:
Before: M2 large SMIC w/ Koyo Radiator; intake temp 35C, water temp 87C on a 70F day
After: Regular Vmount with Vmount air box: intake temp 25C, water temp, 85C on a 70F day
Chuck
My customers have swapped to VMIC from large SMIC and FMIC and I have all the data already. All the values I posted are not compared to the stock IC. They are compared to the customers' previous setup.
Setup 1:
Before: T04Z single with HKS Type S IC w/ Koyo Radiator; intake temp, 35C, water temp 95C on a 65 F day
After: T0rZ with Monster Vmount, intake temp 21C, water temp 82C on a 65F day
Setup 2:
Before: M2 large SMIC w/ Koyo Radiator; intake temp 35C, water temp 87C on a 70F day
After: Regular Vmount with Vmount air box: intake temp 25C, water temp, 85C on a 70F day
Chuck
I certainly am reading your post as you intended. here were my readings from the CWR rig: https://www.rx7club.com/showpost.php...4&postcount=15
Not much different from your VMIC setup. so to claim massive improvements of efficiency is a bit optimistic. both will work as advertised...which works better is prolly not signficant enough unless the owners plan on enduro racing.
the last time i checked, with the stock undertray even a "standard" vmic will heat soak the engine bay. it's not as open a pathway as you paint the picture to be.
but until i am running and can collect hard data, it is not worth for me to try to prove the validity of the setup, one way or the other. till then...
09-21-05, 08:18 PM
#52
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Originally Posted by Kento
Yes, IC cores will cause back pressure no matter what position, but they will cause significantly less back pressure the less you have to force the airflow to make a turn-- that's simple flow dynamics there. At the rearmost portion of your IC setup, you're basically forcing the airflow to make a sharp near-90-degree turn in very little space, and through a pretty thick core (versus, say, the relatively thin core of the stock radiator). Yes, the negative pressure on the exit side will help, but airflow will still be drastically slower because it's had to make that turn. If you had enough negative pressure to get adequate airflow through those areas, then I'd start to worry about the pressure/lift effects on the front end at speed, which would bring you back to the beginning.
Note that any upgrade over 400 hp (from the stock 300) for the STi requires a FMIC. (Also note that the hood scoop forms a sort of airbox over stock STi top mount core, allowing the airflow a smoother transition into the core itself). Porsche 911 turbos have dedicated ducting feeding the ICs from a frontal perspective for efficiency.
also the STi doesnt have an airbox, it's just a scoop. same dealie with the 911 turbos...the lower pressure area over the "whale tail" draws the air down through the IC. you're thinking of their rads which sux air from the front.
Hey Odula: Your VMIC sux cuz it's too flat! 
Yes, this is all theory and conjecture, and you've built it already with some good fabrication and quality, so have at it. If it works for you, good on ya.
09-21-05, 08:42 PM
#53
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With your car, you have a vented hood and a GTC front bumper with much larger openings. Your vented hood defiinitely will help the intake temp because the hot air from the radiator can be vented that the IC will be not affected as much. The cars I tested on have STOCK bumper and STOCK hood. Have you collected any data when you still had the stock bumepr and stock hood? If you did, then that will be a fair comparision.
You can't compare setups on different cars. You have to compare wtih just one variable on the same car which is what I did.
Anything can be heat soaked if the car just sits there. It only matters on how easy and how long it takes. If you have radiator heat blasting to your engine bay, it will be heat soaked faster. If you have cooler air cooling down the engine bay, it can be cooled down faster. Even with the undertray installed, the hot air will be exsting at the bottom. It makes no sense for the air to just turn 180 degreen and shoots straight up to the intake manifold. As Kento pointed out, he already has doubs that the air will turn 90 degree to cool down the radiator. Now with the car sitting still, how would air just turn 180 degree and heat up the engine bay. And who says you need to run one? You even posted the Dream Works setup. They just cut up the undertray with 2 slots to vent the radiator. You can do the same with any kind of vmount, just like yours. I personally do not run one. My undertray was long gone and so are many people's.
Chuck
You can't compare setups on different cars. You have to compare wtih just one variable on the same car which is what I did.
Anything can be heat soaked if the car just sits there. It only matters on how easy and how long it takes. If you have radiator heat blasting to your engine bay, it will be heat soaked faster. If you have cooler air cooling down the engine bay, it can be cooled down faster. Even with the undertray installed, the hot air will be exsting at the bottom. It makes no sense for the air to just turn 180 degreen and shoots straight up to the intake manifold. As Kento pointed out, he already has doubs that the air will turn 90 degree to cool down the radiator. Now with the car sitting still, how would air just turn 180 degree and heat up the engine bay. And who says you need to run one? You even posted the Dream Works setup. They just cut up the undertray with 2 slots to vent the radiator. You can do the same with any kind of vmount, just like yours. I personally do not run one. My undertray was long gone and so are many people's.
Chuck
Originally Posted by HedgeHog
I certainly am reading your post as you intended. here were my readings from the CWR rig: https://www.rx7club.com/showpost.php...4&postcount=15
Not much different from your VMIC setup. so to claim massive improvements of efficiency is a bit optimistic. both will work as advertised...which works better is prolly not signficant enough unless the owners plan on enduro racing.
the last time i checked, with the stock undertray even a "standard" vmic will heat soak the engine bay. it's not as open a pathway as you paint the picture to be.
but until i am running and can collect hard data, it is not worth for me to try to prove the validity of the setup, one way or the other. till then...
Not much different from your VMIC setup. so to claim massive improvements of efficiency is a bit optimistic. both will work as advertised...which works better is prolly not signficant enough unless the owners plan on enduro racing.
the last time i checked, with the stock undertray even a "standard" vmic will heat soak the engine bay. it's not as open a pathway as you paint the picture to be.
but until i am running and can collect hard data, it is not worth for me to try to prove the validity of the setup, one way or the other. till then...
09-21-05, 09:17 PM
#54
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Originally Posted by rotaryextreme
With your car, you have a vented hood and a GTC front bumper with much larger openings. Your vented hood defiinitely will help the intake temp because the hot air from the radiator can be vented that the IC will be not affected as much. The cars I tested on have STOCK bumper and STOCK hood. Have you collected any data when you still had the stock bumepr and stock hood? If you did, then that will be a fair comparision.
You can't compare setups on different cars. You have to compare wtih just one variable on the same car which is what I did.
Anything can be heat soaked if the car just sits there. It only matters on how easy and how long it takes. If you have radiator heat blasting to your engine bay, it will be heat soaked faster. If you have cooler air cooling down the engine bay, it can be cooled down faster. Even with the undertray installed, the hot air will be exsting at the bottom. It makes no sense for the air to just turn 180 degreen and shoots straight up to the intake manifold. As Kento pointed out, he already has doubs that the air will turn 90 degree to cool down the radiator. Now with the car sitting still, how would air just turn 180 degree and heat up the engine bay. And who says you need to run one? You even posted the Dream Works setup. They just cut up the undertray with 2 slots to vent the radiator. You can do the same with any kind of vmount, just like yours. I personally do not run one. My undertray was long gone and so are many people's.
Chuck
You can't compare setups on different cars. You have to compare wtih just one variable on the same car which is what I did.
Anything can be heat soaked if the car just sits there. It only matters on how easy and how long it takes. If you have radiator heat blasting to your engine bay, it will be heat soaked faster. If you have cooler air cooling down the engine bay, it can be cooled down faster. Even with the undertray installed, the hot air will be exsting at the bottom. It makes no sense for the air to just turn 180 degreen and shoots straight up to the intake manifold. As Kento pointed out, he already has doubs that the air will turn 90 degree to cool down the radiator. Now with the car sitting still, how would air just turn 180 degree and heat up the engine bay. And who says you need to run one? You even posted the Dream Works setup. They just cut up the undertray with 2 slots to vent the radiator. You can do the same with any kind of vmount, just like yours. I personally do not run one. My undertray was long gone and so are many people's.
Chuck
your theory of how the engine "heat soaks" is kinda fishing for it. the rad on top or below will both have hot air coming towards the motor. the motor will generate more heat than either the rad AND the ic together. the heat soak issue is usually from the motor heating a the rad/ic cores when stationery not from the rad heating the motor. LOL.
i see where all the questions arise from regarding flow and how the angle of the cores sit...i'm basing the concept on that it will not affect the heat exchange efficiency to the point of it being an ineffective design. the point is, i haven't jumped to a conclusion on what the outcome will be until empirical testing is done, then why are u or anyone else so damn sure that what you guys claim is the exclusive gospel of IC layout????
like i said, the rad under is prolly a good safe concept given the previously mentioned lower weight bias, shorter pipes, and drainage benefits. but it's not enough to disuade me from pursuing this route and seeing what it'll do. however, none of the claims of the flat angle being inefficient has been proven since a lot of the Japanese venders also either lay their rad or ic cores flat relative to air flow. and only a couple of them use a splitter to ensure ram air effect through each core.
i have not discounted the fact that this setup will not work, will not work as effective as yours, or whatever in between. what i'm arguing about is that some of the hypothesis put through in this discussion are purely subjective. kinda like the Formula Forums i visit and ppl say "i think this car is better than that cuz it looks more 'aero'" uh, yeah.
with respect to the cooling effect, i never had the stock bumper on when the CWR went in. but i did have the stock rad and IC on the Mazdaspeed GTC bumper and vented hood on. it didnt register as significant cooling as it did with the CWR setup. i forgot what it was and i cant find the form that i logged it on (yeah, i do keep logs). a well ducted SMIC will offer excellent cooling w/o rad blockage (go ask Wyum if u dare). heat soak dissapated immediately within 2 blocks of constant motion (ie. bad traffic then driving). this was well documented on the big list and the forum...heat soak aint an issue if ur stuck in traffic cuz your not on boost....and nobody in their right mind goes WOT after heat soaking.
09-21-05, 09:33 PM
#55
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can i ask what would the benefit of this setup be? more lag because of longer IC piping and without a doubt higher engine temps but with a vented hood i guess it wont be much of a diffrence. im not trying to be a dik i am just curious cause i really dont see a benefit or a reason to do it this way?
09-21-05, 10:07 PM
#56
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its amazing how everybody accepts that having the fins NOT facing directly into the incoming air i.e V-mount setup, is a very inefficient way of utelising the IC or RAD cores.
And yet everybody continues to simply alter and play around with the angles of the IC and RAD to gain space and then fabricate these colossal duct setups to redirect the airflow throught the cores to cool them even though they still accept that its inefficient.
What you are ALL doing is futile.
ask yourself this -
If we all accept that having to re-direct air( via an air duct ) simply to flow the air through the fins ( in some cases 90 degrees)is inefficeint and that angling the whole IC or RAD causes us to build the ducts ( which we accept as inefficient ) to do the job, where should we be really starting when it comes to efficient airflow through the IC and RAD cores?
think about it and throw up some ideas
And yet everybody continues to simply alter and play around with the angles of the IC and RAD to gain space and then fabricate these colossal duct setups to redirect the airflow throught the cores to cool them even though they still accept that its inefficient.
What you are ALL doing is futile.
ask yourself this -
If we all accept that having to re-direct air( via an air duct ) simply to flow the air through the fins ( in some cases 90 degrees)is inefficeint and that angling the whole IC or RAD causes us to build the ducts ( which we accept as inefficient ) to do the job, where should we be really starting when it comes to efficient airflow through the IC and RAD cores?
think about it and throw up some ideas
09-21-05, 11:58 PM
#57
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Originally Posted by spekdah
its amazing how everybody accepts that having the fins NOT facing directly into the incoming air i.e V-mount setup, is a very inefficient way of utelising the IC or RAD cores.
And yet everybody continues to simply alter and play around with the angles of the IC and RAD to gain space and then fabricate these colossal duct setups to redirect the airflow throught the cores to cool them even though they still accept that its inefficient.
What you are ALL doing is futile.
ask yourself this -
If we all accept that having to re-direct air( via an air duct ) simply to flow the air through the fins ( in some cases 90 degrees)is inefficeint and that angling the whole IC or RAD causes us to build the ducts ( which we accept as inefficient ) to do the job, where should we be really starting when it comes to efficient airflow through the IC and RAD cores?
think about it and throw up some ideas
And yet everybody continues to simply alter and play around with the angles of the IC and RAD to gain space and then fabricate these colossal duct setups to redirect the airflow throught the cores to cool them even though they still accept that its inefficient.
What you are ALL doing is futile.
ask yourself this -
If we all accept that having to re-direct air( via an air duct ) simply to flow the air through the fins ( in some cases 90 degrees)is inefficeint and that angling the whole IC or RAD causes us to build the ducts ( which we accept as inefficient ) to do the job, where should we be really starting when it comes to efficient airflow through the IC and RAD cores?
think about it and throw up some ideas
aw, crap...now those crazy italians are doing it wrong...
09-22-05, 12:56 AM
#58
2/4 wheel cornering fiend
Heh, sorry...don't mean to drag this on any further, but :
Yes, but that's part of the reason why IC cores are so thick compared to coolant radiators or oil coolers, and why the fins are not straight-- they're designed to slow down the airflow from the moment air enters the core. What I'm saying is that there is a risk of flow stagnation at the rearmost portion of the IC face because of the acute angle and lack of room.
I'm not saying that TMICs like STi's don't work properly. I'm saying that they were designed that way with thorough testing and R&D to ensure that they were, so that the company wouldn't get killed with warranty claims...
Didn't say it had an airbox, I said the scoop "forms a sort of airbox"...
Whoops, my bad, you're right, I'm thinking of the later turbo Carreras. Although it's not the "low pressure area over the whale tail" that draws air down through the TMIC-- that is a high pressure area, also complemented by the older 911's air-cooling fan and intake moving serious cfm to create a negative pressure area in the engine bay.
Agreed, but do they have a splitter sitting very close the IC face? That's the part I'm worried about.
But again, that's just me, and it's your car. Good job on the fabrication. If it works well and there's no ill effects on aerodynamics and such, good on ya.
:
Originally Posted by HedgeHog
i don't think air turning 90 has any advantage/disadvantage with heat exchange efficiency unless it's not getting enough throughput. you want some time for the air passing through the core to actually carry the heat off from the fins. going too fast through it will not remove the heat sufficiently...pretty Corky Bell mentioned that in his book.
that's more due to the physical limitation of putting a larger IC on TOP of the motor. hence most upgrade will move it to the front. i'm pretty sure a manufacture would not risk engineering the IC to not properly work when they have to warranty their product for X years whilst claiming Y horsepower.
also the STi doesnt have an airbox, it's just a scoop.
same dealie with the 911 turbos...the lower pressure area over the "whale tail" draws the air down through the IC. you're thinking of their rads which sux air from the front.
lol...dont forget KnightSports...the originator. their illustration depicts a flat IC. and perusing RX-7 Magazine reveals a couple more tuners having quite a flat IC layout.
But again, that's just me, and it's your car. Good job on the fabrication. If it works well and there's no ill effects on aerodynamics and such, good on ya.
09-22-05, 07:37 AM
#60
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[QUOTE=HedgeHog]simple....all engineering solutions are constrained by packaging requirements. otherwise, you would end up with your rad and ic core 90 deg to the air flow sitting atop your hood. all a matter of maximizing core size within the confines of our itty bitty engine bay.
no, the answer is to build a core that no matter what shape the core is its fins ALWAYS face direct into the incoming airflow
no, the answer is to build a core that no matter what shape the core is its fins ALWAYS face direct into the incoming airflow
09-22-05, 11:17 AM
#61
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Originally Posted by spekdah
no, the answer is to build a core that no matter what shape the core is its fins ALWAYS face direct into the incoming airflow
you're just being obtuse and argumentative.
09-22-05, 11:24 AM
#62
Place your ad here...
Originally Posted by HedgeHog
you're just being obtuse and argumentative.
https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generation-specific-1993-2002-16/angled-ic-idea-464631/
09-22-05, 11:36 AM
#63
I speak Japanglish
Originally Posted by herblenny
I agree with Chuck..
For better result, I would put the rad at the bottom and IC on top.
The thing I like about V mounts are that the pipings are shorter than most smic and fmic. Also cools much better. This set up seems to have fairly long piping and don't like the intake location. I don't see much advantage over FMIC... Its same as me driving with my fmic and fans kicked on all the time..
For better result, I would put the rad at the bottom and IC on top.
The thing I like about V mounts are that the pipings are shorter than most smic and fmic. Also cools much better. This set up seems to have fairly long piping and don't like the intake location. I don't see much advantage over FMIC... Its same as me driving with my fmic and fans kicked on all the time..
That was one of the reason why japanese created the IC to be on top! (I've read about this on one of my rx7 magazine)
09-22-05, 12:10 PM
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we will never learn anythign unless we try it out.
and this thread has given me ideas about different setups as well. i am going to sketch them out when i get a chance to see what you guys think.
and this thread has given me ideas about different setups as well. i am going to sketch them out when i get a chance to see what you guys think.
09-22-05, 03:06 PM
#65
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
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What does radiator do? It takes away the heat generated by the motor. Blasting the heat back to the motor is such a great idea? I can't understand why you don't think cooling the motor itself with some cooler air is not a great idea. It's just basic physics.
I have no problem with the angle of your IC or radiator. I don't know where you get that from. I am saying by keeping the same radaitor and IC as you have but placing the IC on the top, you will have a better setup. Why spend all the money and make something that's not going to perform as well? It's your money. I guess I care too much. I just hate to see all the fab work and money wasted.
Different from others, my statements are not subjective. They are based on real world data. I have worked on all 3 set ups and I know the pro's and con's. My suggestions might not be valuable to you but they might be valuable to someone else who wants to do their own custom VMIC.
SMIC all have radiator blockage. The duct blocks at least half of the exit of the radiator. Go ask Wyum if I dare? What's that supposed to mean? I mean if you think the SMIC is so great, why didn't you use the same IC core and do a SMIC? I don't know where you are going with this.
Jpandes came down to the shop with a M2 big IC on his car. After seeing how the vmount works and how it performs, he wants to go with vmount. Most people want to go with vmount. The only issue is price. While you can get a FMIC for $900-950, it's hard to sell a complete vmount setup that costs at least $1750 with a radiator in a group buy. Not as many use it because it's more expensive, not because it does not outperform. And data collected from customers cars already show the improvement. If I can make a vmount that comes with a radiator for $1300-1400, I can bet you 80% of the people out there will go wtih it. Too bad it won't be that cheap unless I send the production to China or something. And at this time, I don't really give a damn. I am in the process of selling the company because I am too tired of this type of bull ****. When you try to help someone, he wants to fire back right at you. What a great community to be in.
Anyway, it's your money, your car. I should never have posted anything info. I greatly regret that. Good luck to you.
Chuck
I have no problem with the angle of your IC or radiator. I don't know where you get that from. I am saying by keeping the same radaitor and IC as you have but placing the IC on the top, you will have a better setup. Why spend all the money and make something that's not going to perform as well? It's your money. I guess I care too much. I just hate to see all the fab work and money wasted.
Different from others, my statements are not subjective. They are based on real world data. I have worked on all 3 set ups and I know the pro's and con's. My suggestions might not be valuable to you but they might be valuable to someone else who wants to do their own custom VMIC.
SMIC all have radiator blockage. The duct blocks at least half of the exit of the radiator. Go ask Wyum if I dare? What's that supposed to mean? I mean if you think the SMIC is so great, why didn't you use the same IC core and do a SMIC? I don't know where you are going with this.
Jpandes came down to the shop with a M2 big IC on his car. After seeing how the vmount works and how it performs, he wants to go with vmount. Most people want to go with vmount. The only issue is price. While you can get a FMIC for $900-950, it's hard to sell a complete vmount setup that costs at least $1750 with a radiator in a group buy. Not as many use it because it's more expensive, not because it does not outperform. And data collected from customers cars already show the improvement. If I can make a vmount that comes with a radiator for $1300-1400, I can bet you 80% of the people out there will go wtih it. Too bad it won't be that cheap unless I send the production to China or something. And at this time, I don't really give a damn. I am in the process of selling the company because I am too tired of this type of bull ****. When you try to help someone, he wants to fire back right at you. What a great community to be in.
Anyway, it's your money, your car. I should never have posted anything info. I greatly regret that. Good luck to you.
Chuck
Originally Posted by HedgeHog
your theory of how the engine "heat soaks" is kinda fishing for it. the rad on top or below will both have hot air coming towards the motor. the motor will generate more heat than either the rad AND the ic together. the heat soak issue is usually from the motor heating a the rad/ic cores when stationery not from the rad heating the motor. LOL.
i see where all the questions arise from regarding flow and how the angle of the cores sit...i'm basing the concept on that it will not affect the heat exchange efficiency to the point of it being an ineffective design. the point is, i haven't jumped to a conclusion on what the outcome will be until empirical testing is done, then why are u or anyone else so damn sure that what you guys claim is the exclusive gospel of IC layout????
i have not discounted the fact that this setup will not work, will not work as effective as yours, or whatever in between. what i'm arguing about is that some of the hypothesis put through in this discussion are purely subjective. kinda like the Formula Forums i visit and ppl say "i think this car is better than that cuz it looks more 'aero'" uh, yeah.
with respect to the cooling effect, i never had the stock bumper on when the CWR went in. but i did have the stock rad and IC on the Mazdaspeed GTC bumper and vented hood on. it didnt register as significant cooling as it did with the CWR setup. i forgot what it was and i cant find the form that i logged it on (yeah, i do keep logs). a well ducted SMIC will offer excellent cooling w/o rad blockage (go ask Wyum if u dare). heat soak dissapated immediately within 2 blocks of constant motion (ie. bad traffic then driving). this was well documented on the big list and the forum...heat soak aint an issue if ur stuck in traffic cuz your not on boost....and nobody in their right mind goes WOT after heat soaking.
i see where all the questions arise from regarding flow and how the angle of the cores sit...i'm basing the concept on that it will not affect the heat exchange efficiency to the point of it being an ineffective design. the point is, i haven't jumped to a conclusion on what the outcome will be until empirical testing is done, then why are u or anyone else so damn sure that what you guys claim is the exclusive gospel of IC layout????
i have not discounted the fact that this setup will not work, will not work as effective as yours, or whatever in between. what i'm arguing about is that some of the hypothesis put through in this discussion are purely subjective. kinda like the Formula Forums i visit and ppl say "i think this car is better than that cuz it looks more 'aero'" uh, yeah.
with respect to the cooling effect, i never had the stock bumper on when the CWR went in. but i did have the stock rad and IC on the Mazdaspeed GTC bumper and vented hood on. it didnt register as significant cooling as it did with the CWR setup. i forgot what it was and i cant find the form that i logged it on (yeah, i do keep logs). a well ducted SMIC will offer excellent cooling w/o rad blockage (go ask Wyum if u dare). heat soak dissapated immediately within 2 blocks of constant motion (ie. bad traffic then driving). this was well documented on the big list and the forum...heat soak aint an issue if ur stuck in traffic cuz your not on boost....and nobody in their right mind goes WOT after heat soaking.
09-22-05, 04:02 PM
#67
Originally Posted by rotaryextreme
Jpandes came down to the shop with a M2 big IC on his car. After seeing how the vmount works and how it performs, he wants to go with vmount. Most people want to go with vmount. The only issue is price. While you can get a FMIC for $900-950, it's hard to sell a complete vmount setup that costs at least $1750 with a radiator in a group buy. Not as many use it because it's more expensive, not because it does not outperform. And data collected from customers cars already show the improvement. If I can make a vmount that comes with a radiator for $1300-1400, I can bet you 80% of the people out there will go wtih it. Too bad it won't be that cheap unless I send the production to China or something. And at this time, I don't really give a damn. I am in the process of selling the company because I am too tired of this type of bull ****. When you try to help someone, he wants to fire back right at you. What a great community to be in.
Anyway, it's your money, your car. I should never have posted anything info. I greatly regret that. Good luck to you.
Chuck
Anyway, it's your money, your car. I should never have posted anything info. I greatly regret that. Good luck to you.
Chuck
I'm going to wait to see results before I say anything. I have my doubts but more power to this person if he proves us all wrong. But I do know that I've been to RotaryExtreme plenty of times and looked at the installed Vmount kits on customers cars, each customer that I've talked to had nothing but good news about the kit and Chuck. Chuck's data has my support and I'd probably buy one also when I finally get my FD running again.
- Kevin
09-22-05, 04:11 PM
#68
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Originally Posted by rotaryextreme
And at this time, I don't really give a damn. I am in the process of selling the company because I am too tired of this type of bull ****. When you try to help someone, he wants to fire back right at you. What a great community to be in.
09-22-05, 04:14 PM
#69
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Originally Posted by rotaryextreme
What does radiator do? It takes away the heat generated by the motor. Blasting the heat back to the motor is such a great idea? I can't understand why you don't think cooling the motor itself with some cooler air is not a great idea. It's just basic physics.
where do u think ur magical VMIC's rad air goes? is there a black hole that comes as part of ur kit???? it goes back towards the motor...u still have the underbelly pan right? if not, then ur advocating the removal of it may leave other engine components exposed to road damage. ur call.
Why spend all the money and make something that's not going to perform as well? It's your money. I guess I care too much. I just hate to see all the fab work and money wasted.
Different from others, my statements are not subjective. They are based on real world data. I have worked on all 3 set ups and I know the pro's and con's. My suggestions might not be valuable to you but they might be valuable to someone else who wants to do their own custom VMIC.
VMIC and log the heat values. then u've got some hard data to say that the ic on top is the better way. comparing ur setup to stock or another kit means didley squat. kinda like if i happen to log a better value for the CWR kit, does that make urs invalid? given up ur sales campaign...ur not helping me.
SMIC all have radiator blockage. The duct blocks at least half of the exit of the radiator. Go ask Wyum if I dare? What's that supposed to mean? I mean if you think the SMIC is so great, why didn't you use the same IC core and do a SMIC? I don't know where you are going with this.
Jpandes came down to the shop with a M2 big IC on his car. After seeing how the vmount works and how it performs, he wants to go with vmount. Most people want to go with vmount. The only issue is price. While you can get a FMIC for $900-950, it's hard to sell a complete vmount setup that costs at least $1750 with a radiator in a group buy. Not as many use it because it's more expensive, not because it does not outperform. And data collected from customers cars already show the improvement. If I can make a vmount that comes with a radiator for $1300-1400, I can bet you 80% of the people out there will go wtih it. Too bad it won't be that cheap unless I send the production to China or something. And at this time, I don't really give a damn. I am in the process of selling the company because I am too tired of this type of bull ****. When you try to help someone, he wants to fire back right at you. What a great community to be in.
btw, i dunno why u still call me ur customer...the only thing left that i have from u are the HKS BOV and MazdaSpeed short shifter. the lights kit i got from another member...altho i truly regret getting it....truly low grade quality stuff. i hope Mr. Amemiya's orig wasn't this bad to begin with.
and if ur gonna sell ur biz then why do u keep chiming in about ur kit???? i offer u no sympathy. other members are free to enjoy ur services and products but i aint one of them. given my experience w/ ur "research and development" prowess...i wonder how many of ur SMIC went to happy customers? or any customers?
x 10
Anyway, it's your money, your car. I should never have posted anything info. I greatly regret that. Good luck to you.
Last edited by HedgeHog; 09-22-05 at 04:18 PM.
09-22-05, 04:46 PM
#70
WOW! HedgeHog,
I think you might be mis interpreting what we are trying to say.. Well, at least this is what I think Chuck is trying to say...
I think you did a fantastic job on the fabrication.. and I'm sure you'll make a nice airbox that shields off heat and get fresh air from somewhere else..
But the thing is that I think we are trying to help you by pointing out some plus and minus about how you could set up. I don't think Chuck is saying, "buy my kit". I think he's suggesting, you might want to set it similar to his since he did some testing. And by theory, his set up works and proven to work in real world.
I agree with what some have said. Placing the IC on top will reduce your piping by at least 1 ft each side. I see that as a huge benefit. But, ultimately its your car and you have your own reason for doing what you are doing.. Either being a show car, track car, drag car, or daily.
Good luck with your project!
I think you might be mis interpreting what we are trying to say.. Well, at least this is what I think Chuck is trying to say...
I think you did a fantastic job on the fabrication.. and I'm sure you'll make a nice airbox that shields off heat and get fresh air from somewhere else..
But the thing is that I think we are trying to help you by pointing out some plus and minus about how you could set up. I don't think Chuck is saying, "buy my kit". I think he's suggesting, you might want to set it similar to his since he did some testing. And by theory, his set up works and proven to work in real world.
I agree with what some have said. Placing the IC on top will reduce your piping by at least 1 ft each side. I see that as a huge benefit. But, ultimately its your car and you have your own reason for doing what you are doing.. Either being a show car, track car, drag car, or daily.
Good luck with your project!
09-22-05, 04:49 PM
#71
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
iTrader: (2)
ur some piece of work....piecemeal circular arguments just to keep ur gums flapping. it's not that i dont believe what u said above, it's that given the fuggin motor generates so much heat, the heat soaking is from the motor to the rad. even if the air blows back towards the motor, it's prolly not significant enough to make a diff since the heat is on the block itself. we're not talking about the heat on a heat exchanger like a rad or ic core but on the damn housings!
When directing the air existing the radiator to the engine bay just makes eveyrthing worse. Directly cooler air to the engine bay reduces heat soak. And it does make a difference. It greatly reduces the intake manifold temp.
where do u think ur magical VMIC's rad air goes? is there a black hole that comes as part of ur kit???? it goes back towards the motor...u still have the underbelly pan right? if not, then ur advocating the removal of it may leave other engine components exposed to road damage. ur call.
I already said it exsits the bottom just like yours. It's not shooting directly onto the motor as your setup. With the undertray in place, it still does not heat up the engine bay as much. You can cut holes like the Dream Works setup if you want to keep the undertray or you don't want to use it, that's fine. I already said that in my post.
ur right, it's my damn money and i am experimenting with it. what's it too u if i fail. i'm not telling ppl this is THE best nor only solution...it's the one I'm running with. get off ur high horse...ur not some rotary parts god that u think u are...just a parts peddler making money off some other ppl's design.
When did I call myself a rotary god. I am just offering some suggestions and expereince toward your setup. If you don't want to use it, fine. I don't really give a ****. Someone else might find it valuable. Making money off people's design. Yeah. Just by putting the radiator on the top makes it a new design. And it's actually not going to work as well. Good job!
ur real world data is as biased as any quotable data. why don't u do a rad-on-top
VMIC and log the heat values. then u've got some hard data to say that the ic on top is the better way. comparing ur setup to stock or another kit means didley squat. kinda like if i happen to log a better value for the CWR kit, does that make urs invalid? given up ur sales campaign...ur not helping me.
I am comparing with the same car. I already said that. If you can't read well, don't try to put words in my mouth. Maybe I will leave that testing to you. Are you going to change it to the top IC setup after yours is done? I doubt it. Why would I use that when I know it will not work as well. I don't have money to waste like you. I am not trying to sell you anything. You are not taking any suggestions, no one can help you anway. Who do you agree to in this thread? NONE!
i'm guessing ur memory is fading since i've already stated, i swapped my CWR out to put a larger core in. i had not probs w/ Duane's SMIC until i decided to put a large turbo + 1/2 bridge in there. i've never had any overheat issue using a SMIC. EVER. so my point is if u dont believe that a well made SMIC works, then go ask the guy who did the very first large SMIC for the FD...he shud have enough experience, data, and evidence to counter ur claim that they're not as good.
Of course you will not have any overheating issues with SMIC. When did I say it will? A well design SMIC can work but just not as well given the size of the air duct. If you want it to work better, you need to do Trev's setup.
good for JPandes then. price has nuthin to do with this, i'm testing a concept. get it? testing a theory. stop putting urself in my shoes...i'm not selling anything. not competing w/ u. not knocking ur version down (on purpose).
I am talking about the general public on the vmount setup. NOT YOURS! You pobably spent more money than you needed to.Do you know how many times I hear "I want a vmount but I can't afford it" from the custoemrs every week? I know you are not selling anything. What's up with the attitude. You can't knock my version down anyway. I have mine finished before any of the Japanese vendors other than Knight Sports and they all did the same thing I did. I am not worrying your hurting my business. Don't think of yourself too high.
btw, i dunno why u still call me ur customer...the only thing left that i have from u are the HKS BOV and MazdaSpeed short shifter. the lights kit i got from another member...altho i truly regret getting it....truly low grade quality stuff. i hope Mr. Amemiya's orig wasn't this bad to begin with.
I believe once a customer, always a customer. Why would you email me about getting the RE Amemiya column mount gauge pod if you are not my customer then? Just waste my ******* time for some info? You didn't believe me that they don't make a 60mm version. Did you get your 60mm version yet? They only have the 60mm version for the air bag pod. Sorry for treating you like a customer. I should have been sitting in front of computer and laugh without saying anything.
and if ur gonna sell ur biz then why do u keep chiming in about ur kit???? i offer u no sympathy. other members are free to enjoy ur services and products but i aint one of them. given my experience w/ ur "research and development" prowess...i wonder how many of ur SMIC went to happy customers? or any customers? x 10
I already said I just want to see a custom vmount working its best. I already said so and I am not trying to sell you ****. You are still sour at the SMIC? Why would you email me years later for parts if you are still sour. It's not like I ******* scam you or anything. **** happens and I tried to correct it. What else do you want?
yeah, it's my money and i regret u chiming in also...u offer nothing to my setup...just seem to be stirring the pot with ur "i'm done the most research on VMIC" claims...sheesh.
Do your own **** and I don't give a ****. Just don't throw words in my mouth. And yes, I have done the most Vmount in the US. It's a fact. Yours is not even finished yet. How many had your fabrciator done??
When directing the air existing the radiator to the engine bay just makes eveyrthing worse. Directly cooler air to the engine bay reduces heat soak. And it does make a difference. It greatly reduces the intake manifold temp.
where do u think ur magical VMIC's rad air goes? is there a black hole that comes as part of ur kit???? it goes back towards the motor...u still have the underbelly pan right? if not, then ur advocating the removal of it may leave other engine components exposed to road damage. ur call.
I already said it exsits the bottom just like yours. It's not shooting directly onto the motor as your setup. With the undertray in place, it still does not heat up the engine bay as much. You can cut holes like the Dream Works setup if you want to keep the undertray or you don't want to use it, that's fine. I already said that in my post.
ur right, it's my damn money and i am experimenting with it. what's it too u if i fail. i'm not telling ppl this is THE best nor only solution...it's the one I'm running with. get off ur high horse...ur not some rotary parts god that u think u are...just a parts peddler making money off some other ppl's design.
When did I call myself a rotary god. I am just offering some suggestions and expereince toward your setup. If you don't want to use it, fine. I don't really give a ****. Someone else might find it valuable. Making money off people's design. Yeah. Just by putting the radiator on the top makes it a new design. And it's actually not going to work as well.
Good job! ur real world data is as biased as any quotable data. why don't u do a rad-on-top
VMIC and log the heat values. then u've got some hard data to say that the ic on top is the better way. comparing ur setup to stock or another kit means didley squat. kinda like if i happen to log a better value for the CWR kit, does that make urs invalid? given up ur sales campaign...ur not helping me.
I am comparing with the same car. I already said that. If you can't read well, don't try to put words in my mouth. Maybe I will leave that testing to you. Are you going to change it to the top IC setup after yours is done? I doubt it. Why would I use that when I know it will not work as well. I don't have money to waste like you. I am not trying to sell you anything. You are not taking any suggestions, no one can help you anway. Who do you agree to in this thread? NONE!
i'm guessing ur memory is fading since i've already stated, i swapped my CWR out to put a larger core in. i had not probs w/ Duane's SMIC until i decided to put a large turbo + 1/2 bridge in there. i've never had any overheat issue using a SMIC. EVER. so my point is if u dont believe that a well made SMIC works, then go ask the guy who did the very first large SMIC for the FD...he shud have enough experience, data, and evidence to counter ur claim that they're not as good.
Of course you will not have any overheating issues with SMIC. When did I say it will? A well design SMIC can work but just not as well given the size of the air duct. If you want it to work better, you need to do Trev's setup.
good for JPandes then. price has nuthin to do with this, i'm testing a concept. get it? testing a theory. stop putting urself in my shoes...i'm not selling anything. not competing w/ u. not knocking ur version down (on purpose).
I am talking about the general public on the vmount setup. NOT YOURS! You pobably spent more money than you needed to.Do you know how many times I hear "I want a vmount but I can't afford it" from the custoemrs every week? I know you are not selling anything. What's up with the attitude. You can't knock my version down anyway. I have mine finished before any of the Japanese vendors other than Knight Sports and they all did the same thing I did. I am not worrying your hurting my business. Don't think of yourself too high.
btw, i dunno why u still call me ur customer...the only thing left that i have from u are the HKS BOV and MazdaSpeed short shifter. the lights kit i got from another member...altho i truly regret getting it....truly low grade quality stuff. i hope Mr. Amemiya's orig wasn't this bad to begin with.
I believe once a customer, always a customer. Why would you email me about getting the RE Amemiya column mount gauge pod if you are not my customer then? Just waste my ******* time for some info? You didn't believe me that they don't make a 60mm version. Did you get your 60mm version yet? They only have the 60mm version for the air bag pod. Sorry for treating you like a customer. I should have been sitting in front of computer and laugh without saying anything.
and if ur gonna sell ur biz then why do u keep chiming in about ur kit???? i offer u no sympathy. other members are free to enjoy ur services and products but i aint one of them. given my experience w/ ur "research and development" prowess...i wonder how many of ur SMIC went to happy customers? or any customers?
x 10I already said I just want to see a custom vmount working its best. I already said so and I am not trying to sell you ****. You are still sour at the SMIC? Why would you email me years later for parts if you are still sour. It's not like I ******* scam you or anything. **** happens and I tried to correct it. What else do you want?
yeah, it's my money and i regret u chiming in also...u offer nothing to my setup...just seem to be stirring the pot with ur "i'm done the most research on VMIC" claims...sheesh.
Do your own **** and I don't give a ****. Just don't throw words in my mouth. And yes, I have done the most Vmount in the US. It's a fact.
Yours is not even finished yet. How many had your fabrciator done??
Last edited by rotaryextreme; 09-22-05 at 05:19 PM.
09-22-05, 05:01 PM
#72
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
iTrader: (2)
Kevin:
99% of the customers are great but just that 1% getting on my nerve. But that 1% is enough to stress me out and lose interest in this car business.
And I already said his setup will work, just not at its best given all the componetns used. Some people just can't read or listen. Sigh...
BTW, are you the Kevin that knows Will from C2?
Chuck
99% of the customers are great but just that 1% getting on my nerve. But that 1% is enough to stress me out and lose interest in this car business.
And I already said his setup will work, just not at its best given all the componetns used. Some people just can't read or listen. Sigh...
BTW, are you the Kevin that knows Will from C2?
Chuck
Originally Posted by Jaiyurai
Thats too bad that you're selling the business Chuck. The rotary community will lose yet another great resource for parts and information.
I'm going to wait to see results before I say anything. I have my doubts but more power to this person if he proves us all wrong. But I do know that I've been to RotaryExtreme plenty of times and looked at the installed Vmount kits on customers cars, each customer that I've talked to had nothing but good news about the kit and Chuck. Chuck's data has my support and I'd probably buy one also when I finally get my FD running again.
- Kevin
I'm going to wait to see results before I say anything. I have my doubts but more power to this person if he proves us all wrong. But I do know that I've been to RotaryExtreme plenty of times and looked at the installed Vmount kits on customers cars, each customer that I've talked to had nothing but good news about the kit and Chuck. Chuck's data has my support and I'd probably buy one also when I finally get my FD running again.
- Kevin
09-22-05, 05:19 PM
#73
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Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Richmond, BC, Canada
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Originally Posted by rotaryextreme
[B]Maybe I will leave that to you. Are you going to change it to the top IC setup after yours is done? I doubt it. Why would I use that when I know it will not work as well. I don't have money to waste like you. I am not trying to sell you anything. You are not taking any suggestions, no one can help you anway.
Of course you will not have any overheating issues with SMIC. When did I say it will? A well design SMIC can work but just not as well given the size of the air duct. If you want it to work better, you need to do Trev's setup.
I know you are not selling anything. What's up with the attitude. You can't knock my version down anyway. I have mine finished before any of the Japanese vendors other than Knight Sports and they all did the same thing I did. I am not worrying your hurting my business. Don't think of yourself too high.
I believe once a customer, always a customer. Why would you email me about getting the RE Amemiya column mount gauge pod if you are not my customer then? Just waste my ******* time for some info? You didn't believe me that they don't make a 60mm version. Did you get your 60mm version yet? They only have the 60mm version for the air bag pod. Sorry for treating you like a customer. I should have been sitting in front of computer and laugh without saying anything.
like ur the only one who runs a business on earth or sumthing...****.
I already said I just want to see a custom vmount working its best. I already said so and I am not trying to sell you ****. You are still sour at the SMIC? Why would you email me years later for parts if you are still sour. It's not like I ******* scam you or anything. **** happens and I tried to correct it. What else do you want?
Do your own **** and I don't give a ****. Just don't throw words in my mouth.
i'm out...this thread is a waste of forum bandwith. sorry to ryan for this.
Here's props to the Dr. Nick of the RX7 community.
09-22-05, 05:49 PM
#74
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
iTrader: (2)
when the **** did i ever ask for anyone's help? i didn't even start this ******* thread. i'm not taking anyone's suggestions...PERIOD...got it? it's my project...it's something i'm working on...if i need to alter it then so be it. what a bunch of ******* pompous *********...****, i wanna drop ur like the sack of **** that ur are.
Hey, it's a public forum. Anyone can say anything. Come hurt me. I am very scared. Now you are calling names because you can't come up with anything better to say? Now you want to hurt me?
u just said "SMIC all have radiator blockage. The duct blocks at least half of the exit of the radiator." that screams like a backhanded comment on potential overheating if i ever heard one...or is mister double talk here denying it.
What the are you talking about? Find me a quote that I ever said a SMIC will make the car over heat. Blocking the radaitor exit is not good. That's just a known fact. If you block the back, how would air go through? What the hell?
my attitude is with u and all these armchair experts chiming in claiming this and that. why dont they go and disprove the theory instead of being so damn condescending. i dont think of myself as any thing special wrt to engineering knowledge...however, u seem to be claiming some end-all and be-all solution. get off it...I DON'T GIVE A ****.
I don't give a **** either, good!
i asked cuz you claim u can get stuff. i can't read japanese and since u claim "connections" i inquired. u said it dunt exist so i did not pursue further...what's wrong with that? and yeah, i'm just wasting ur gawd damn precious time...with all ur heavy R&D going on.
like ur the only one who runs a business on earth or sumthing...****.
You asked iin your post if I still consider you as a customer? I said I did. If I didn't, I would not have replied your email. And now I just CLAIM I can get something? What the **** is wrong with you? How can I get you **** when they don't make it? I just don't understand of the concept of your not seeing yourself as my cusotmer and still inquired on products. If you don't plan to buy it here and you asked, were you ******* wasting my time? Did I even said you are wasting my time until you post some bull **** trying to slam me.
I asked for one fukking part! not parts. dont be so damn arrogant. fine, i'll never bother u again...that i can promise.
Good! I always put the past in the past. Even though the SMIC didn't work out, I still tried to help you when you inquire on something. But now, why would I want to help you when your ******* attitude is like this? I don't deserve any of your bull ****. You are the ******* arrogant one. I treated you like a cusotmer and it seems to me that you are ashamed or being one. Now you are going to turn that **** around against me like I am the arrogant one? That's some great logic here.
is that a promise? cuz ur "don't give a ****" has sure left a ton of exrements in this thread. go "don't give a ****" elsewhere. shouldn't u be taking care of your customers instead of wasting time pandering to some nutjob like me? ur like some fatal attraction chick, u can't change/please everyone, so dont.
Yeah, I promise I won't post anything on this thread if you just get your facts straight and don't put words in my mouth or make up some fucked up **** about me. Dealing with people like you can make me go insane! You are the biggest ******* here. If you don't need any suggestion or whatever ****, just tell people nicley that you don't need it. Don't blow it up on me when other people even doubt your setup. I was just trying to say if you put the IC on the top, it will work better. What the **** is wrong with that and how does my comment offend you anyway whe I think most of your work is good!!! God damn it!
Hey, it's a public forum. Anyone can say anything. Come hurt me. I am very scared. Now you are calling names because you can't come up with anything better to say? Now you want to hurt me?
u just said "SMIC all have radiator blockage. The duct blocks at least half of the exit of the radiator." that screams like a backhanded comment on potential overheating if i ever heard one...or is mister double talk here denying it.
What the are you talking about? Find me a quote that I ever said a SMIC will make the car over heat. Blocking the radaitor exit is not good. That's just a known fact. If you block the back, how would air go through? What the hell?
my attitude is with u and all these armchair experts chiming in claiming this and that. why dont they go and disprove the theory instead of being so damn condescending. i dont think of myself as any thing special wrt to engineering knowledge...however, u seem to be claiming some end-all and be-all solution. get off it...I DON'T GIVE A ****.
I don't give a **** either, good!
i asked cuz you claim u can get stuff. i can't read japanese and since u claim "connections" i inquired. u said it dunt exist so i did not pursue further...what's wrong with that? and yeah, i'm just wasting ur gawd damn precious time...with all ur heavy R&D going on.
like ur the only one who runs a business on earth or sumthing...****.
You asked iin your post if I still consider you as a customer? I said I did. If I didn't, I would not have replied your email. And now I just CLAIM I can get something? What the **** is wrong with you? How can I get you **** when they don't make it? I just don't understand of the concept of your not seeing yourself as my cusotmer and still inquired on products. If you don't plan to buy it here and you asked, were you ******* wasting my time? Did I even said you are wasting my time until you post some bull **** trying to slam me.
I asked for one fukking part! not parts. dont be so damn arrogant. fine, i'll never bother u again...that i can promise.
Good! I always put the past in the past. Even though the SMIC didn't work out, I still tried to help you when you inquire on something. But now, why would I want to help you when your ******* attitude is like this? I don't deserve any of your bull ****. You are the ******* arrogant one. I treated you like a cusotmer and it seems to me that you are ashamed or being one. Now you are going to turn that **** around against me like I am the arrogant one? That's some great logic here.
is that a promise? cuz ur "don't give a ****" has sure left a ton of exrements in this thread. go "don't give a ****" elsewhere. shouldn't u be taking care of your customers instead of wasting time pandering to some nutjob like me? ur like some fatal attraction chick, u can't change/please everyone, so dont.
Yeah, I promise I won't post anything on this thread if you just get your facts straight and don't put words in my mouth or make up some fucked up **** about me. Dealing with people like you can make me go insane! You are the biggest ******* here. If you don't need any suggestion or whatever ****, just tell people nicley that you don't need it. Don't blow it up on me when other people even doubt your setup. I was just trying to say if you put the IC on the top, it will work better. What the **** is wrong with that and how does my comment offend you anyway whe I think most of your work is good!!! God damn it!
Last edited by rotaryextreme; 09-22-05 at 05:58 PM.