Decision time... rebuild or V8...
06-19-09, 02:06 PM
#26
Exactly... I love the way the FD looks. I also love the rotary engine and the thought of once again having a huge turbo on it. Problem is the V8 is bullet-proof. I don't plan on doing anything crazy to it. It produces more torque. Engine parts are EASY to find. I can keep A/C and Powersteering. Car remains lightweight and unique.
I haven't committed either way, I'm just weighing my options. Additionally, in a perfect world I could own another RX-7 and keep it rotary. Which I might do later anyways... lol
I haven't committed either way, I'm just weighing my options. Additionally, in a perfect world I could own another RX-7 and keep it rotary. Which I might do later anyways... lol
06-19-09, 02:19 PM
#28
1 simple reason, I like the way the FD looks. In my opinion, it's one of the worlds best looking cars. It is MUCH nicer then the Z06. It's also very unique.
Now, I could see what you are saying if the owner were in incompetent. I once was like that. I even tried to blame the rotary for blowing when it was my own fault. I now have a full understanding of the rotary and would still go LSx if I could do it again.
Now, I could see what you are saying if the owner were in incompetent. I once was like that. I even tried to blame the rotary for blowing when it was my own fault. I now have a full understanding of the rotary and would still go LSx if I could do it again.
Last edited by purerx7; 06-19-09 at 02:21 PM.
06-19-09, 02:39 PM
#29
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Nice picture Bryan! That makes me want to go buy an Z06 
I guess if you really REALLY like the FD body style.. then stick with FD and go LSx. But personally I think new Z06s are pretty good looking car... and bit more modern style vs. 15+ year old FD style.
If money is an issue, then I say stick with rotary. Rotary Rebuilt does Very reasonable rebuilds and couple weekends later, you'll have your car back to where it was... Vs. Months of waiting for Hinson's parts, rewiring, tuning, etc... to have something bit more reliable... Which, in today's term, Fd's are FAR more reliable than say 10 years ago. People also need to realize, nothing is reliable when you start modifying.. either LSx or 13B-REW
I guess if you really REALLY like the FD body style.. then stick with FD and go LSx. But personally I think new Z06s are pretty good looking car... and bit more modern style vs. 15+ year old FD style.
If money is an issue, then I say stick with rotary. Rotary Rebuilt does Very reasonable rebuilds and couple weekends later, you'll have your car back to where it was... Vs. Months of waiting for Hinson's parts, rewiring, tuning, etc... to have something bit more reliable... Which, in today's term, Fd's are FAR more reliable than say 10 years ago. People also need to realize, nothing is reliable when you start modifying.. either LSx or 13B-REW
06-19-09, 05:10 PM
#32
What about a N/A 3 rotor?
06-19-09, 06:02 PM
#34
I'll talk to you on Saturday. This is a tough decision, was for me too as I almost got another rotary. I felt I had to go a different route after selling the R1. Some very valid points on both sides but truely will come down to what you really want.
I know it's not about all horsepower for you or else you would have gone single by now.
Not too much concern about the money cause you have good money sense like some people I know *cough*purerx7*cough*
I'm all for owning a z06 and could have gotten one but something about being in a car not very many people have...even it it has a chevy engine in it. The FD is just unique. Corvette?...they all look the same to me. Like mustangs, just see m to be everywhere. FD? much more unique.
I know it's not about all horsepower for you or else you would have gone single by now.
Not too much concern about the money cause you have good money sense like some people I know *cough*purerx7*cough*
I'm all for owning a z06 and could have gotten one but something about being in a car not very many people have...even it it has a chevy engine in it. The FD is just unique. Corvette?...they all look the same to me. Like mustangs, just see m to be everywhere. FD? much more unique.
06-19-09, 07:11 PM
#35
I'll talk to you on Saturday. This is a tough decision, was for me too as I almost got another rotary. I felt I had to go a different route after selling the R1. Some very valid points on both sides but truely will come down to what you really want.
I know it's not about all horsepower for you or else you would have gone single by now.
Not too much concern about the money cause you have good money sense like some people I know *cough*purerx7*cough*
I'm all for owning a z06 and could have gotten one but something about being in a car not very many people have...even it it has a chevy engine in it. The FD is just unique. Corvette?...they all look the same to me. Like mustangs, just see m to be everywhere. FD? much more unique.
I know it's not about all horsepower for you or else you would have gone single by now.
Not too much concern about the money cause you have good money sense like some people I know *cough*purerx7*cough*
I'm all for owning a z06 and could have gotten one but something about being in a car not very many people have...even it it has a chevy engine in it. The FD is just unique. Corvette?...they all look the same to me. Like mustangs, just see m to be everywhere. FD? much more unique.
Just ordered your Nardi wheel btw.
06-19-09, 08:29 PM
#38
too much posts to read... but i was in the same boat..
i have a lotttt of upgrades and i still dont think selling off the rotary stuff will pay off for the swap.. it will end up being a few grand more.
i also opt'ed not to do the swap bc rebuilding and putting the rotary back in is cake...
lsx swap will take time and patients.... i felt like all the little things would add up and just cause more down time... i believe the subframe kit is like 3g alone (i forgot but i think around there for the justin samberg? kit which is suppose to be top notch)
ive planned on the lsx swap twice.. both results yeilded me with the rotary still in the car... next car will be an lsx rx7.....
i have a lotttt of upgrades and i still dont think selling off the rotary stuff will pay off for the swap.. it will end up being a few grand more.
i also opt'ed not to do the swap bc rebuilding and putting the rotary back in is cake...
lsx swap will take time and patients.... i felt like all the little things would add up and just cause more down time... i believe the subframe kit is like 3g alone (i forgot but i think around there for the justin samberg? kit which is suppose to be top notch)
ive planned on the lsx swap twice.. both results yeilded me with the rotary still in the car... next car will be an lsx rx7.....
06-19-09, 10:19 PM
#40
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For what its worth I am buying a roller fd tomorrow and I will be putting in a LS2. There are a few reasons I have decided to do this instead of rebuilding the stock rx7 motor.
1) I love LS engines, I have a 02 zo6 with heads cam intake and some other mods, making 470 rwhp. If I cruise at 65-70 I still get 30MPG, if I drive a little hard and around town I will average 20.
2) These motors are reliable as can be. Like I said I am making 470 rwhp and have put over 8K miles on that set up and not a single problem, the car has 60K on it and has NEVER had an engine problem.
3)Installing the ls motor does not affect the balance or the weight of the FD which is very important to me as I do plan on having alot of track time in this car, but it will also be my driver as I have been driving the vette WAY to much.
4) These engines are very easy to work on, I mean just about anyone should be able to build an LS1, they are also cheep to modify.
5) the conversion parts arent that expensive. Engine cradle is about $800, you can modify your own wiring harness, tranny mount is $150, $500 for top of the line radiator. and a few other things that I am sure I am leaving out. All and all 2K give or take 500 for the conversion parts.
That is my opinion on the matter. Dont get me wrong I respect the rotory motors, but they just arent for me
1) I love LS engines, I have a 02 zo6 with heads cam intake and some other mods, making 470 rwhp. If I cruise at 65-70 I still get 30MPG, if I drive a little hard and around town I will average 20.
2) These motors are reliable as can be. Like I said I am making 470 rwhp and have put over 8K miles on that set up and not a single problem, the car has 60K on it and has NEVER had an engine problem.
3)Installing the ls motor does not affect the balance or the weight of the FD which is very important to me as I do plan on having alot of track time in this car, but it will also be my driver as I have been driving the vette WAY to much.
4) These engines are very easy to work on, I mean just about anyone should be able to build an LS1, they are also cheep to modify.
5) the conversion parts arent that expensive. Engine cradle is about $800, you can modify your own wiring harness, tranny mount is $150, $500 for top of the line radiator. and a few other things that I am sure I am leaving out. All and all 2K give or take 500 for the conversion parts.
That is my opinion on the matter. Dont get me wrong I respect the rotory motors, but they just arent for me
06-21-09, 08:30 PM
#41
I could say a lot here... like... "Cars don't have souls" or "the rotary is a great engine, but the LS1 is better. Much better."
Ok. Said it anyway. All that's to say I love the RX-7 chassis and form much more than I like its engine. And, I really like the engine.
Unfortunately, the engine has a few significant drawbacks that make it essentially untenable, that 15 years of the aftermarket hasn't fixed (unless Coleman's thread has truly figured it out).
The LSx are great engines too. It's not just about reliability. Light, flexible, reliable, powerful, and easy to modify and work on. Pound for pound it's arguably the best mass produced engine nearly anywhere (dollar for dollar this is no longer arguable).
So, in my mind, why not marry a great chassis and awesome shape with a spectacular engine?
Ultimately, however, it boils down to what really drives you. I have no loyalty to make or model. There is no heresy in engineering or design except for the laws of physics and what works for you. That does not mean that I believe that you can't make something worse.
Seems to be more passion than sense in this whole debate.
Ok. Said it anyway. All that's to say I love the RX-7 chassis and form much more than I like its engine. And, I really like the engine.
Unfortunately, the engine has a few significant drawbacks that make it essentially untenable, that 15 years of the aftermarket hasn't fixed (unless Coleman's thread has truly figured it out).
The LSx are great engines too. It's not just about reliability. Light, flexible, reliable, powerful, and easy to modify and work on. Pound for pound it's arguably the best mass produced engine nearly anywhere (dollar for dollar this is no longer arguable).
So, in my mind, why not marry a great chassis and awesome shape with a spectacular engine?
Ultimately, however, it boils down to what really drives you. I have no loyalty to make or model. There is no heresy in engineering or design except for the laws of physics and what works for you. That does not mean that I believe that you can't make something worse.
Seems to be more passion than sense in this whole debate.
06-21-09, 09:39 PM
#42
Like I said, more passion than sense.
Look, the rotary is a beautiful engine. I respect it. I don't pathologically revere it - or its creators.
It's really a matter of "what kind of car guy are you?"
I'm not the kind that quotes the creators of the FD or that of the corvette or that of the Shelby Cobra. I care about their history and what they've accomplished. But, I really don't care what they think of my car.
I'm the kind of car guy that has passion for making things better and faster. And, for putting my own stamp on it too.
And, Gordon, this is not an argument about maturity. This is an argument about the soul of a car. I'm perfectly happy with calling my car an LS-7 or whatever. Doesn't really matter to me. All I know is that, by my measure, the car suits my needs far better than it did with the rotary in it.
Mazda engineers had an opportunity to get it right. They got it mostly right.
Look, the rotary is a beautiful engine. I respect it. I don't pathologically revere it - or its creators.
It's really a matter of "what kind of car guy are you?"
I'm not the kind that quotes the creators of the FD or that of the corvette or that of the Shelby Cobra. I care about their history and what they've accomplished. But, I really don't care what they think of my car.
I'm the kind of car guy that has passion for making things better and faster. And, for putting my own stamp on it too.
And, Gordon, this is not an argument about maturity. This is an argument about the soul of a car. I'm perfectly happy with calling my car an LS-7 or whatever. Doesn't really matter to me. All I know is that, by my measure, the car suits my needs far better than it did with the rotary in it.
Mazda engineers had an opportunity to get it right. They got it mostly right.
06-21-09, 10:57 PM
#43
Gordon,
I have a tremendous amount of respect for you, what you have accomplished and what you give back to this community on a daily basis. However, IMO your reasoning is flawed and illogical - at best. Like myself, you seem pretty stubborn and close minded on this issue, which is why the foundation of your reasoning is so out of scope.
First off, it is not the creator who dictates the destiny of a car, it is the owners. So what if one of the designers says that a FD without a rotary is no longer a Rx7? Who gives him the authority to say what is and what isn't? There were so many people involved in designing and putting together the rx7, that I find it wrong to follow one mans ideology.
"You can build a reliable 500 whp single turbo 13b or build a reliable 500 whp V8"
I can count on one or two hands the amount of FD owners who make 500whp reliably (more then 2 years without a rebuild and these people are the ones who barely use them). Sure, you can have a reliable 500whp rotary, maybe one that is barely used. However, if you are constantly beating on it and driving it hard, the engine just can't take the abuse. That is a FACT and is evident by all the rebuilds. Compare that to a ls7 which can handle the abuse all day long for years on end. A modified rotary motor will never be as reliable as a v8, never. Sure, ones that are well taken care of and not modified can last quite some time, especially the 12a's - I have seen them with 200,000+ miles with no rebuilds. Although, that is not what this thread is about.
"No one except those who have converted to V8's think of them as Rx7's"
This is not true either, perhaps this is more what you want to believe opposed to what is true. I have a 13b and still consider a lsx swap FD a rx7, so do PLENTY of FD owners. I find it is the only die hard rotary fans that consider it a blasphemy.
"Those that say cars don't have souls or that the engine is not the soul are either not mature enough to know what's what or they simply aren't really car guys."
This is a bold statement, and you are trying to make your opinion into a wide-held belief. A car is SO MUCH more then what engine it has. To me, and many others, the soul is a combination of so many factors, of course the engine being one, but when I sit in my car and start it(assuming it starts) the smile on my face is a direct result of the CAR and NOT just the engine. Thus to say the soul revolves solely around an engine is foolish. What about older cars that aren't impressive under the hood but are just a beautiful automobile(1955 Jaguar XK140), does that car not have a soul? I guess either I am too immature or just not a car guy :/ BTW that was a rather insulting statement on your part, which is rather out of character for you.
Whether you have a ls7, 2jz, or a 13b, it is still a Rx7. If I put a rb26 motor in a s13, does that mean its no longer a 240sx? Of course not. I realize that the rotary is what makes the Rx7 unique and different, but to me it is the overall package that truly is the soul of any automobile.
I mean this out of no disrespect, but I need to defend my right as a "car guy".
I have a tremendous amount of respect for you, what you have accomplished and what you give back to this community on a daily basis. However, IMO your reasoning is flawed and illogical - at best. Like myself, you seem pretty stubborn and close minded on this issue, which is why the foundation of your reasoning is so out of scope.
First off, it is not the creator who dictates the destiny of a car, it is the owners. So what if one of the designers says that a FD without a rotary is no longer a Rx7? Who gives him the authority to say what is and what isn't? There were so many people involved in designing and putting together the rx7, that I find it wrong to follow one mans ideology.
"You can build a reliable 500 whp single turbo 13b or build a reliable 500 whp V8"
I can count on one or two hands the amount of FD owners who make 500whp reliably (more then 2 years without a rebuild and these people are the ones who barely use them). Sure, you can have a reliable 500whp rotary, maybe one that is barely used. However, if you are constantly beating on it and driving it hard, the engine just can't take the abuse. That is a FACT and is evident by all the rebuilds. Compare that to a ls7 which can handle the abuse all day long for years on end. A modified rotary motor will never be as reliable as a v8, never. Sure, ones that are well taken care of and not modified can last quite some time, especially the 12a's - I have seen them with 200,000+ miles with no rebuilds. Although, that is not what this thread is about.
"No one except those who have converted to V8's think of them as Rx7's"
This is not true either, perhaps this is more what you want to believe opposed to what is true. I have a 13b and still consider a lsx swap FD a rx7, so do PLENTY of FD owners. I find it is the only die hard rotary fans that consider it a blasphemy.
"Those that say cars don't have souls or that the engine is not the soul are either not mature enough to know what's what or they simply aren't really car guys."
This is a bold statement, and you are trying to make your opinion into a wide-held belief. A car is SO MUCH more then what engine it has. To me, and many others, the soul is a combination of so many factors, of course the engine being one, but when I sit in my car and start it(assuming it starts) the smile on my face is a direct result of the CAR and NOT just the engine. Thus to say the soul revolves solely around an engine is foolish. What about older cars that aren't impressive under the hood but are just a beautiful automobile(1955 Jaguar XK140), does that car not have a soul? I guess either I am too immature or just not a car guy :/ BTW that was a rather insulting statement on your part, which is rather out of character for you.
Whether you have a ls7, 2jz, or a 13b, it is still a Rx7. If I put a rb26 motor in a s13, does that mean its no longer a 240sx? Of course not. I realize that the rotary is what makes the Rx7 unique and different, but to me it is the overall package that truly is the soul of any automobile.
I mean this out of no disrespect, but I need to defend my right as a "car guy".
Last edited by purerx7; 06-21-09 at 11:11 PM.
06-21-09, 11:12 PM
#44
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please please please drive or take a ride in a lsx rx7 .. either stock or with work done to it . trust me .. thats the only thing u need to make up ur mind either rotary or v8 all it takes is 1 drive or ride .
and my insurance still says rx7 on it .. so i guess it is still a rx7 . lol.. i understand were everyone is coming from with the whole soul thing .. but ill take torque > soul any day .
and my insurance still says rx7 on it .. so i guess it is still a rx7 . lol.. i understand were everyone is coming from with the whole soul thing .. but ill take torque > soul any day .
06-21-09, 11:40 PM
#46
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im not going to argue about most off the issues people have discused because ive seen thread after thread of battles waged between the ls guys and the "purists"...and it pretty much always ends up going no were.
i will however say, the only thing that really gets me pissed off, are the ******* youngins who before they even get to experience the rotary, or blame the rotary for blowing when it was there own stupidity, and then want to go ls...i know this isnt the case, but it just really boils my blood, how the hell do you even know your going to hate the engine? ya know
anyway the fact of the matter is, preference, do you want your car too feel like a vette? or to feel like an Rx7?
you can fight about "heart" "soul" being a fake rx7 or whatever, but you can never argue that putting an ls makes the FD still feel like an rx7 when you drive...because it just cant
yea the seat still holds your *** the same...and they both make power, but the feel is different
and honestly, the rx7 looses some of its exoticness when you put an ls in it
yea its cool to see someones FD that had a swap in it, but in the end, its just a plain old v8
but when you roll up in an rx7 with a rotor, you know your going to get some questions about it, the sound just draws peoples attention...wtf is that noise? wtf do you mean no pistons? rotiserie? why the hell are you dumping 2 stroke in the gas? how the hell can that little thing make that kind of power?
theres nothing wrong with doing the swap, to each his own after all.
i will however say, the only thing that really gets me pissed off, are the ******* youngins who before they even get to experience the rotary, or blame the rotary for blowing when it was there own stupidity, and then want to go ls...i know this isnt the case, but it just really boils my blood, how the hell do you even know your going to hate the engine? ya know
anyway the fact of the matter is, preference, do you want your car too feel like a vette? or to feel like an Rx7?
you can fight about "heart" "soul" being a fake rx7 or whatever, but you can never argue that putting an ls makes the FD still feel like an rx7 when you drive...because it just cant
yea the seat still holds your *** the same...and they both make power, but the feel is different
and honestly, the rx7 looses some of its exoticness when you put an ls in it
yea its cool to see someones FD that had a swap in it, but in the end, its just a plain old v8
but when you roll up in an rx7 with a rotor, you know your going to get some questions about it, the sound just draws peoples attention...wtf is that noise? wtf do you mean no pistons? rotiserie? why the hell are you dumping 2 stroke in the gas? how the hell can that little thing make that kind of power?
theres nothing wrong with doing the swap, to each his own after all.
06-21-09, 11:47 PM
#47
Actually, my opinion from the earlier post still stands. Cars don't have souls. The essential character of the car can be changed. People say that when you strap a turbo on a Miata. Aw heck, I did that one too.
You suggest that you know that rotaries are unreliable unless Coleman's found the answer. What do you know about rotaries? How many have you owned and for how long? Coleman didn't discover the answer to reliability. He and others recently have helped by talking about what others have done and known for years.
When looking for an FD the question to ask is "when was the last rebuild?" or "how many rebuilds on this engine?"
I freely admint that I neither have the mechanical skill or patience to own a FD with its rotary. I would love to. But, I'd rather drive the car than not.
06-21-09, 11:56 PM
#48
Oh, and to the OP, the only way you'll really, really know is to drive one. Get in the damn thing and drive it. You'll know very quickly whether or not you like it. The sound alone... But, also take it around a few corners to prove to yourself that the balance of the chassis is not upset.
There's really no other way to know for yourself. After all, it's really about what you want. You shouldn't care one bit what the heck I think.
Drive and decide.
There's really no other way to know for yourself. After all, it's really about what you want. You shouldn't care one bit what the heck I think.
Drive and decide.
06-22-09, 01:22 AM
#49
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id stick with the rotary, then go get an auxiliary injection kit to further increase the 13B's reliability. in the end tho, its not about what we think its about what you as the owner think. if you want to go LSX swap and want to drop the money for that conversion, do it. if you want to stay rotary then go for it. either way, you can blow up a 13B and you can blow a V8.
