j n

i've searched these questions but i didnt get an in depth answer, and they've been me all night and i can't sleep.

so i have to know . when i was reading the FAQ for the 3rd gen. it stated that the R models " r1,r2" have the following that were different from the touring models

- Rear spoiler and front air dam
- Dual engine oil coolers
- Dedicated front brake air ducts
- Special suspension tuning
- Front shock-tower support brace
- Z-rated high-performance steel-belted radial tires

A----are the dual engine oil coolers really needed? would it help the car if its going to be a daily driver? i mean, its just a 2nd oil cooler right? or does it have a function i dont know about.

B---- the front air dam and the dedicated front brake air ducts... if i swapped to an aftermarket front bumper, wouldn't it just render these features useless anyway? do they act the same way a rear spoiler would, where its affects kicks in only after going at higher speeds?


i'd appreciated it if you guys don't flame me and call me a noob or do a search again, so heres hoping

4CN A1R

iTrader: (6)

A---not especially for your application, but duals would help. you can be sure it will prolong the life of you engine...

and its not just another oil cooler, the size of the oil coolers have been enlarged from a 25mm core to a 27mm core.

B---the air dam is used to force or direct more air into the oil cooler and rad/intercooler inlets.

the ducts would still be used. i have never seen a fd front bumper that didnt include the oil cooler ducts, so i think you ok

and a rear spoiler is only nessesary when you taking you car up to crazy speeds...around 200 or so(mph). its used to create downforce on the back end. hope you dont think you'll need that

hope this helps you

adam

BigWillieStyles

ive got a JDM type R2. I have an aftermarket front bar, but if you buy a good front bar that has taken the ducting into account then it should all match up. Ive got a GTC mazdaspeed kit and all the ducting is suppose to work even better.

As for the oil coolers, the R2 was the lighest FD ever made, it didnt even get backseats or even a rear wiper. They took every possible root to save weight. I trust that the rx7 engineers knew what they were doing when they installed dual oil coolers as it would of cost alot more to put on.

tafkamb2

actually real spoilers start making down force in as little as 75 mph.

kaisar1

why every JDM FD is equipped with dual Oil coolers? Like mine

Its Auto '95 , and seats are fabric, but has dual oil coolers and rear spoiler, cruise control..

What trim is it infact then?

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

Far as I remember, Base model US version was the lightest FD made (with cloth seats)

I recommend dual coolers but not necessary.. There are plenty of people on the forum with single coolers that made 80+K miles on an engine (including me).. Dual coolers will help if you live in a hot weathered area or pushing your car.. But normal daily driving, you should be fine. Also, coolers could be added fairly easily these days.. But most important thing I recommend would be regular oil change.

On my MB, I have single coolers.. but upgrading to dual over Xmas.. Just because I'm making more power and live in a hotter area..

Something to think about.... 2004 model RX8 only GT models came with dual coolers.. After 2004, almost all the 8 came with dual coolers..

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

One of them is your tranny cooler.. Not oil..

Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

I wouldn't say that. http://www.7parts.com/cars.html

Many AutoX cars have wings and you'll be hard pressed to tell those guys it doesn't help them.

kaisar1

you mean, the two small radiator like things behind right and left ducts in front bumper are serving different components?

what i see i american models in that the right side duct in the bumper is often closed and left side has one oil cooler.

im confused.

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

You did say 95 AUTO?

If thats the case, Yes, Driver side is oil cooler and Passenger side is your tranny cooler.

For US Base and Touring model, Driver side is oil and passenger side is... NOTHING!

All Automatic FDs will have one oil and one tranny coolers.

US R1 and R1 - Both sides are oil coolers.

FYI: There were couple of demo cars in USA that was built early 92 with all the options on it.. They will look like Touring, Manual, with dual coolers. Which means, they have sunroof and dual coolers (pretty much). They even had R1 spoiler, strut bar, etc.. These cars exist as I've talked to a guy with one of these.. It travelled around the country to different dealership as a demo car.. Far as what I was told 2 were built like this.

kaisar1

my 4 other close friends have FDs and ofcourse they are Jap imports.

They are all manual, two of them have leather trim with sunroof and the remaining two have fabric trim and one has this momo streeing wheel from factory.

All of them have two oil coolers in front.

My question is Japanese right hand drive FDs always come with 2 oil coolers stock from factory or not? I have seen it by myself...

and btw every Jap manufacturer reduces some components from their vehicles no matter what purpose it is for when it comes to export models.

FDNewbie

iTrader: (10)

My $0.02...

1) Are the dual engine oil coolers really needed? would it help the car if its going to be a daily driver? YES. Daily driving was one of the times I saw my highest oil temps, due to getting stuck in stand-still traffic. You'll heatsoak VERY quickly. Yet w/ dual oil coolers, even on the hottest day, my oil temps remained between 200 - 205. If you do a quick search, others typically see temps of 235 - 240. That's a good bit of difference IMO.

2) "Actually real spoilers start making down force in as little as 75 mph" should actually read "Actually real spoilers start making *significant* down force in as little as 75 mph."

3) Herblenny's right; the US Base model was the lightest FD made (with the checkered CF-like weave).

4) Gordon, I'm going to disagree w/ you on this one. The R1/R2 spoiler definitely makes its contribution at top end speeds, and it did it's job for it's time. As the field of auto aerodynamics progressed, the R1/R2 spoiler design became outdated (in essence, the downforce it provided was at the expense of considerable drag). The introduction of the 99spec spoiler was an implementation of that knowledge progression. From http://www.fdnewbieimports.com/Backu...3pic.php?n=48:

"Developed specificially for the 1999+ FD3S, this is the fully functional genuine OEM 1999+ rear wing. This updated rear wing was made to meet the critical role aerodynamics play in the FD3S' peformance, given its light weight. The wing features and adjustable-rake rear center blade with four alternate angles to create varying amounts of downforce while providing a spoiling effect to reduce drag. The 4 positions for the center blade are at 1, 5, 10 and 14.5 degrees. At the standard one-degree rake, the front lift coefficient is 0.045 and the rear 0.000. At the extreme fourth setting of 14.5 degrees, the car generates a front lift coefficient of 0.053 and a negative rear lift coefficient of -0.075, pushing the rear end firmer onto the road surface."

So in short, you had an adjustable wing designed to reduce drag. Best of both worlds. That's why the 99spec wing is superior to the R1/R2 wing, although for most ppl, you'd never notice the difference. That, and I never fancied how the 99spec wing looks like.

5) Also Gordon, while I agree the R1 suspension may be a bit on the harsh side, I gotta say the R2 suspension (which was lightened up in response to critics complaining about the harshness of the R1 suspension) is BEAUTIFUL. It's BY FAR my favorite suspension to date. You haven't been in an FD until you've driven an R2 (or an FD on an R2 suspension). It's really that nice. Very tight, yet not too harsh Minus the fact that it isn't height adjustable, I'd say it's "just right" (unless you're road racing on the track).

~Ramy

Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

Ramy, you better put that into better context than that as there are a ton of professional AutoX'er's who can and will challenge that.

FDNewbie

iTrader: (10)

K...how's this? Does it work? Sure; it would def. demonstrate some statistically significant & repeatable results. Does it take advantage of anywhere *near* the full potential of such an aerodynamic device? No.

This actually reminds me of C-West's claims that their bodykit helped shave off an entire 2 seconds from their time (http://www.c-westusa.com/labs/fudo1_rx7spec.asp). I'll quote Kento on this one Is that a happy compromise for ya?

Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

I disagree. If the wing is design to provide downforce at lower speeds, then it does take full advantage of the aerodynamic device. Take a look at the link I posted above. Those cars run wings which are designed to provide downforce at lower speeds which are used during AutoX. At speeds greater than 75mph, they most likely hamper performance with too much drag, but they aren't designed for those speeds.

Now, I would phase the comment about wings saying that most wings are generally designed to offer downforce at higher speeds with a low effect on drag. In that sense, those wings will have little to offer at low speeds.

That would be a little more accurate.

FDNewbie

iTrader: (10)

So basically you're saying they're running *spoilers* and not wings per say, yes? Because a wing - by definition - is aerodynamically designed to maximize downforce while minimizing drag (at high speeds)

7_rocket

iTrader: (6)

gmonsen, is a smart man

Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

Call it what you want: spoiler, or wing. They are interchanged all over the place. Some places use it as marketing ploys:

'When comparing the spoilers and wings at AutoAnything, the looks say it all. Spoilers offer a sleek, molded appearance that finishes flush with the shape of your vehicle. Custom color is an option with our spoilers, too. Wings take a variety of shapes, but they typically sit much higher and sport industrial metallic looks."

Simple fact is that you can design one (wing or spoiler, take your pick for what you would like to call it) for low speed aerodynamics which makes the statement of "nothing happens until 75mph" completely false.

FDNewbie

iTrader: (10)

C'mon Mahjik. I'd expect accuracy in terminology *esp* from you!

Yes, while spoilers have traditionally been aerodynamic aids flush with the shape of the car (or very low), they can also be mounted higher. From an aerodynamics standpoint, spoilers act like barriers to air flow, in order to build up higher air pressure in front of the spoiler, and are shaped accordingly. The design is very inefficient at higher speeds because of the considerable drag it results in.

That's *completely* different from a wing, which very efficiently generates a lot of downforce for a small penalty in drag. *By design,* a wing works by differentiating pressure on the top and bottom surfaces. Thus, to be most effective, a wing requires that there be no obstruction between the bottom of the wing and the road surface.

What a wing does is make the air passing under it travel a larger distance than the air passing over it. Because air molecules approaching the leading edge of the wing are forced to separate, some going over the top of the wing, and some going under the bottom, traveling differing distances in order to "meet up" again at the trailing edge of the wing. This is part of Bernoulli's theory. And as a result, the lower pressure area under the wing allows the higher pressure area above the wing to "push" down on the wing, and hence the car it's mounted to.

Indeed, they are not one in the same, even if many vendors blur the difference between the two out of ignorance, and use the terms interchangeably.

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

LOL! Can't believe simple, repeated, generalized questions about difference in FD models to physics and terminology about "Wings" and "Spoilers".. I love this forum!!

Sometime, I feel like I shouldn't post at all on these forums.. LMAO!

Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

Ramy, you can make the distinction all that you like. It doesn't really matter. Wing or spoiler; even racing texts have them interchanged. In the end, trying to make that distinction is the ultimate example of "splitting hairs". I can post link after link showing them interchanged in actual automobile racing aerodynamic text, but that doesn't really matter in the end.

So, if you want to make a real distinction, here's a link:

http://www.up22.com/Aerodynamics.htm

So, by that definition, those RX7s for AutoX are using "Wings" not "Spoilers". They may use different "angles" for the wing, but the "angle" doesn't change the name of it.

FDNewbie

iTrader: (10)

I'm not trying to split hairs; I really believe there's a difference.

And I think that website supports what I'm saying, not disagrees with it (given that I was referencing *from that thread* in my previous post)

Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

If you believe that site is right, then those RX-7's are running "Wings", not "Spoiler" as you said originally.

FDNewbie

iTrader: (10)

Care to explain?

Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

For wings, the air passing under is just as important as the air passing on the top. Spoilers, by the definition on the website, only care about building pressure in front of the wing (i.e. why they can sit directly on the rear deck like this):



Clearly, those AutoX FD's have "wings" on their car as it allows air to pass both above and below. They just use a substantial bigger angle to get the effect at lower speeds.