G60

I am considering purchasing a 3rd gen RX-7 tt. However I have a few questions about the engine. From what I have been reading the engine requires rebuilds every 70,000 miles or so. So my basic question is this... what are the general costs involved in owning one of these cars? How much money is going to into repairs and maintenance on average for you 3RD gen owners? And furthermore with engine Modifications and Boost Gauges and what not, is the car reliable once conservatively modified? What kind of HP can I get for my money in each particular range such as:

500-1000
1000-3000
3000-6000

and so on and so forth?

I am also considering purchasing a Supra, and in terms of reliability and ease of modification with substantial increases in power, this platform really seems to have the best bang for the buck. But I love the RX-7 because on the track there really isn't a car that is going to beat it if properly tuned and with a decent driver. I think we all saw the SCC magazine where the RX-7 demolished everyone. I am not really a quarter mile kind of guy but I do love insane acceleration and power.

So, what are your guys take on ease of modification, reliability and cost of owning these great cars? All answers are appreciated.

jimlab

The first thing to take into consideration about the SCC article (and I don't call fractions of a mph or second "demolishing" the competition) is that the RX-7 didn't beat the Supra(s) by that much, and the second thing to take into consideration is that Rhys Millen was driving the RX-7...

Now, consider how much time you'll spend on the track competing against Rhys Millen, and you'll see that it's not worth buying an RX-7 just because someone is able to hustle it around a track quicker than someone else can get a Supra around that track. On that day. And with the limitation of the tires they were allowed. And so on, and so on. And if you got Rhys Millen to drive the Supra(s) around the same track, you might see different results. After all, he didn't set a world's record on Pike's Peak with an RX-7.

Buy a car based on what makes sense to your budget. The RX-7 is more expensive to modify, but can be more rewarding at higher horsepower levels. It will also almost certainly cost more to maintain, and has a higher chance of component failure than the Supra, all things considered. The Supra can be used for a daily driver, can carry an amazing amount of cargo, and still be more than fast enough for what most people will use their cars for... stoplight confrontations.

Be honest about your use of the car. Just because it makes a great track car isn't a justifiable reason to buy an RX-7. If it doesn't make sense to your finances or your use of the car (98%+ of which will be spent on the street, I'm betting), then it's not the right decision. I'm not trying to talk you out of an RX-7, just trying to talk you out of making a decision based on the wrong facts.

Just a common sense checklist:

1) What does the car do for you visually? You won't drive something you can't stand the looks of, obviously.

2) How does the car fit your needs? Will you be driving on the street primarily? Hauling the occasional 3rd passenger? Bringing home 2 weeks worth of groceries or delivering a RX-7 5-speed or 35 sets of suspension bushings in the hatch (personal experience with my own Supra)? If the car doesn't suit your use, you'll be borrowing someone else's vehicle. One car may be flexible where another isn't.

3) Does it have enough power stock so that you'll be happy with the car if you have to save for modifications? If you do have to budget for modifications, does the car respond to small (dollar amount) increments? I think we have a clear winner here, although people will say that the Supra costs more to begin with. They're right, but you'll know where the money went.

4) Does the car require a lot of maintenance or repair beyond what your budget is capable of? Plan for the worst case scenario. Could you afford to replace the engine if you had to? Is an extended warranty available and will it cover the cost of something that large? Do some research.

5) And finally, can you afford the cost of the car. By that I mean can you afford the car, the insurance, the possible tickets, the fuel (neither car gets great gas mileage... plan on 12-15 mpg average (city) with the RX-7, and maybe 15-17 mpg average (city) for the Supra) and so on? Sometimes it just doesn't make sense to have a sports car when your insurance is already high (for whatever reason) and you'll be driving a car which you'll almost certainly end up driving faster than the speed limit from time to time.

Think about ownership from a practical point of view rather than an impulse buy point of view. You'll have to live with your decision for a fairly long period of time, so don't just buy the one that performed better in a given magazine test if it's not the right car for you. And above all, drive the car yourself. If it doesn't feel right to you, then it doesn't matter what anyone else says about the car, even the magazines.

Good luck!

G60

I know of plenty of SC300's with the supra engine coversion. However I do like the supra and it's lines. Even if it is a huge car it was still pulling .98g in the skidpad. And the horsepower load on the stock bottom end can hit upwards of 800hp.


So what I have gleaned from your insight is that if I moderately modify the car the engine should be reliable. However, the cost of moderately modifying the car should be more expensive because it is more "nitpicky" or requires more precision than that of the Supra, since the Supra is "Overengineered".

G60

I think that the vital point made was the issue of car maintenance. Can I afford to maintain an RX-7. I can afford either car and I can get an RX-7 for at least 10 grand less than a Supra, but in terms of speed I can get a whole lot more power out of a Supra than I can for the RX-7 in the 5000 dollar price range. The Supra certainly has more utility as it has a larger cargo space but I have driven the Supra and it does not feel as nimble as the RX-7. I am sure with Suspension upgrades I could make it feel more nimble, but it will never feel like a pocket rocket type of car and the RX-7 seems a more thoroughbred race car in the European tradition. The Supra seems more a touring/economy supercar meant for Grand Touring events. However, the Supra is also more a "musclecar" than the RX-7.

I am mostly concerned with down time. I feel that if I want to tune the Supra to 600rwhp it would cost considerably less and be more reliable for a comparabley tuned RX-7. Would you say this is true?

lenny

dont listen to jimlab. he doesnt know what he's talking about

words like: "reliability", "cargo capacity", "mpg" have no place in this forum. buy the rx-7

i know lots of people that have supras and they have their own gremlins just like rx-7s have. if you want a safe, reliable, efficient car, then go buy a corrola.

buy the 7

djantlive

It is very hard to get a 3rd gen into the 500+ hp and still keep streetability/reliability. However, I think Supras can be modified to achieve that easier.

With about $3-5k in mods, you can expect about 350 to 380 hp. That will be a downpipe, intake, exhaust, ecu, and injectors. The rotary engine responds very well to intake and exhaust mods.

As you stated in your first post, HP isn't everything. A 100-150 hp may yield 0.5 sec gain in 0-60 and maybe close to a sec 1/4 mi. To people who drive on the street, the gain in HP is insignificant compare to the cost and tradeoff in reliability. A simple change in shift point can offset your numbers.

As far as maintenance cost, the parts are as expensive as Mercedes parts. The labor hrs can be pretty high due to the cramped engine bay and the complexity of the turbo w/ 30+ ft of vac hoses. However, if you work on your own car (and is knowlegeable on it) or live nearby a rotary shop, you are in luck. Dealers are pretty much worthless when it comes to diagnoising problems.

In my 2 yrs of ownership with 14k miles added, I have done oil, spark plug, air filter changes, replaced an engine sensor, rotated tires. That's it. It has 82k miles on the original engine and it runs like new. I think people who don't do maint religiously will have TONs of problems that will lead to engine change. Also, lots of engines were changed by the dealer under warranty bc dealers don't know how to fix a turbo problem and just replace everything as a poor solution.

Buy only when you see a mint conditioned car. Compression and other mechanical checks are a must.

I think if you want a lightweight, simple (except the turbo system), and fast car, it's the best choice there is. If you want a muscle car, Supra will do. Go drive them both (that are in similar condition) and I think you'll see the clear difference.

G60

Not interested in the F-bodies. I am not looking for an outright drag car. I like the look of the RX-7 and the Supra. Aesthetically speaking they are attractive cars. The GM cars, even with all the power.. aside from the C5 Z06 are cars I am not intrugued by. If I wanted cheap power I would go the American route. But I like to drive around the twisties.. and can do So with my Stage 4 G60 Corrado, but it lacks the OOMPH that the RX-7 or Supra.. or S4 would bring. I have grown found of forced induction. But I forgot about the 1.3l engine. I did not consider that. There will be no torque it seems with this car. And how can a 1.3L engine only muster 12-14 mpg?

djantlive

I get 17 mpg in mixed driving. Freeway only, I get 20 mpg. 12-14 mpg comes from lots of stop and go (or flooring the gas).

The stock has 213 ft-lb. That's decent enough torque considering that cars like s2000 make only 153 ft-lb.

If you like a good handling car, you'll love the Rx7. The RX7 handles like no others. Even NSX is a bit shy of the Rx7 when it comes to handling. In 94', Danny Sullivan obtained the fastest lap time in a car mag comparison with 911TT, Supra, 300ZX TT. It's just easier to turn and accelerate a car that weights 700 lbs less compared to a 3500 lb Z.

The only performance issue with the RX7 that I've noticed is that after 120 mph, the car accelerates slower than the Supra (stock vs stock). That's due to the difference in engine displacement. However, I doubt too many of us take it over 120 that often. I hope NOT!

Flybye

I think one of the points your missing is the fact that a 400hp RX-7 can pretty much do what a 600hp Supra can do. The Supra needs more hp simply because its a bigger car. It's about 700lbs bigger.

Personally, if you are debating on if you can afford the maintenence costs of an RX-7, then you are probably not ready to buy one. The youngest RX-7s in america are already 7 years old and the oldest ones being 9 years old. You won't be buying a regular car anymore. You are buying a PROJECT car. There is no ifs, ands, or buts about it. WhatEVER FD you buy, you WILL run into issues with it. Even a low mileage FD will have possibly issues with it. Simply because rubber components and other various seals and hoses WILL gave way with age.

Supras, on the other hand, were sold here until 98. You can still pick up a Supra with decent miles and in good condition.

Don't think that because the RX-7 is a cheaper car that it will be cheaper to maintain. This is NOT the case. Parts are expensive to say the least, and if you are question on affording maintenance, then you might not even ba able to afford standord repairs on it. Things like just to have the oil pan gasket resealed costs over $500. It's a difficult car to work on and the parts are VERY expensive on it. I've known a few people already sell their RX-7 simply because they were not able to afford the repairs.

If you can work on cars yourself, then you are already ahead of the game, but if not, then I'd recommened going for something more reliable....

Personally, I didn't buy the Supra because I didn't like the way it looks. It has an excellent drivetrain, but it lacks the looks the FD has IMO. I hate the mosquito eyes it has, I hate the shopping cart handle of a wing, and I hate the massive *** that the car has. Sure, I knew the RX-7 was going to be less reliable, but at least I could be happy at what I am walking up to when I look at it.

Flybye

Actually, it's mostly due to a lack of a 6th gear If you haven't noticed, out 5th gear is WAY too tall. After all, we DO start to redline around 190mph :p

SleepR1

Flybye--wow, she'll do 190! I've only done an indicated 170, and I had more tach left in 5th?

As for the choice between Supra and FD Rx7...I really can't add more than what's already been posted by others.

My FD was assembled in April 1992, and she'll be 10 years old next Spring! I have 92,000 miles on the original motor and turbos. I have moddest mods (see the AIM galleries in my sig), and road race the car regularly (10 to 15 times per year, since 1997). My FD R1 is a 4-season car, and serves as my daily driver as well as racing car.

I've had opportunities to unload the Rx7, and have considered buying a BMW E36 M3 or Porsche 964 RS America. Neither car was good enough to court me away from my beloved FD R1. There are very few cars that can hang with the FD Rx7 R1 on track. In my experience only Viper GTS and Porsche 993/996 Twin Turbos, both driven by competent road racers have beaten the FD out on the high speed road course. Supra Mk IVs? I haven't encountered one that hasn't rendered the "point-by" signal...but perhaps my day is coming?

Yes despite the maitenance-intensity, high-dollar parts, and fragility, there just isn't any sports car out on the market that can touch the FD Rx7 in terms of aesthetics, performance, and value-for-dollar!

Flybye

Oh, this wasn't me

Pumped

eitan

Welp, this thread has successfully destroyed all hopes I had of owning a FD.

*incessant crying follows*

Johnny

done on a dyno..doesnt count

Wade

iTrader: (1)

IF (big IF) you keep the RX-7 stock and do proper maintenance, you will need to spend appx $2k a year.

If you are the type of person who buys a car and drives it a year or two and then sells it, sure, you can probably skip on the maintenance. But it will have to be done eventually by someone or it will need a new engine sooner, it just might be the next owner. That's why you see so many screwed up RX-7s, they change hands so often and practically no one treats them like they should, maintenance-wise.

Your engine should last around 75-100k miles, but you will need a new one eventually. If you buy one used, it might not have been treated that well in the past and you might get far fewer miles from it.

If you plan to modify beyond a couple of simple bolt-on parts, and you don't spend some effort/money on maintenance up front, it's life will be much shorter. Even if you do everything right, modding the car will reduce it's life, sometimes greatly. Most cars with 350rwhp or more (and there are a lot of them around) don't get very many miles per engine, maybe 25k on average.

Wade

Malachi151

Umm.. how about drive both cars and see for yourself. Try to find stock example of both that you can drive. There should be plenty of both in Texas.

The RX-7 and Supra are really both totally differnt in term so what you get out of them IMO.

Even assuming exact same performance in all categories, including slalom, road course, AutoX Solo II course, Drag Strip, etc, even if both cars put up the EXACT same numbers the RX-7 has a TOTALLY different feel to it then a Supra does.

Supra has loads more torque, and in many ways feels faster then the RX-7 when driving it.

It also FEELS less responsive and not as tossable.

I think you'll find yourself more comfortable pulling a 180 in the road with an RX-7 then a Surpa.

The RX-7 is smaller and lighter and has no useable rear seat.

The Supra has more of a Playa/Urban Cruiser vibe to it then the RX-7 which has more of a Race car for the road vibe to it.

The RX-7 is a minimalist desing based on asthetic and functional simplicity. The Supra is a luxury type car.

Chicks will probbaly actually like the Supra better because its a more comfortable car.

Supras typically get: "Cool", or "Sweet", "Pimp"

RX-7s typically get: "Awe ****!", "DUDE WTF IS THAT?!" , "Damn is that a 7? Those things are badass!"

ahh I'm tired now....

Cost of ownership for an RX-7. I can tell you my experiance.

Initial purchase: $19,000
Rebuilding engine: $3,000 (out of pocket)
Fixing electrical fire: $3,000 (insurance paid for that)
Other various modifications, upgraded and repairs: $5,000

And look at my mod list, its not impressive.

There are definately better ways to do things then the way I have done them. A more strict overhaul when I bought the car would probably mean I woudl still be on my first engine right now, but you'll find that you don't learn with these cars until its too late. You know better for next time though

Malachi151

Doh, forgot sig.

pweizman

Well, I for one knew what I was getting into, and purchased a '93 Touring.

My car is a project car for sure. It has 117K on the clock, but about 50-60K on a reman engine (guessing). It has acceptable compression (READ right at the minimum Mazda spec). It had a 10-6-6 boost pattern, about 6 oil leaks, and a slightly hunting idle.

I picked it up for $9600.

I have spent about $1500 on it so far. This includes the following parts...

HKS downpipe
HKS catback
Petitt AST
Fuel filter
Plug wires
New antenna mast
B&M short shifter
Vacuum tubing
Misc. rubber couplings and hoses
Oil pressure switch
a/f guage
water temp gauge
Home Depot manual boost controller

I fixed the boost pattern with a new cat back. It had some hack-job midas too small pipe and muffler on it, and was not allowing the turbos to flow at full potential. This surprised me...but it was an easy fix.

I also took it to a local and recommended rotary mechanic to try to find my elusive oil leak(s). He tracked down a few, and informed me that my turbos are the source of the only remaining oil leak. I have found a set of used ones to install.

I haven't tracked down the source of my hunting idle yet.....

All the labor on my car has been done by me, except the few oil leaks my rotary mechanic tracked down.

I guess the moral of my tale is that if you buy a cheaper RX7, you will probably need to put some cash into to get it running well. That is not say you won't have to put some cash into one if you buy an expensive one.

I purchased mine because I was confident (a bit naive) that I could fix what ever was wrong with it. It was close to me, it was a good price, and I liked the color VR with black leather.

I WANTED a project car, and I am fully aware that a new engine is probably in my future in the next 1-2 years. However, the car isn't my daily driver, and I don't put many miles on the car...~1300 per year.

I have only regreted my purchase a few times. Once when the car flooded on a cold winter night...and it took me 45 minutes to get her to fire.

It is a great car, and I don't think I will let go of it for a long time, but it is NOT a car that you can neglect.

This forum and the "big list" are great sources of information. I haven't found any other car with this kind of support and following (and I have owned quite a few). The amount of info on Rob's site is simply incredible. Also Steve's site is great.

http://www.rx7turboturbo.com/robrobinette/
http://www.scuderiaciriani.com/rx7/index.html

Every time I think I have seen everything on those sites, I find new stuff.


Later,
Patrick

KZ1

Jim, you have such a great way of stating the obvious.

an dfor the guy looking o buy, I haven' had to repair anything this year exceot water thermosensor for 30$. My Rx7 with original engine and 60k+ has been the most reliable car I have owned.

Most epople do not have problems, and the memebrs of this forum do not represent the entire Rx-7 community.

cheers

Flybye

Yes it does. Dynoes don't change your transmission or rear end gear ratio

If someone had asked me "What is the top speed of a stock FD", and then I would have shown them this pic, then YES that would most certainly wouldn't count, but this is just an example of how high our gearing is.