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Coolant question

Old 03-16-14, 11:28 AM
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Coolant question

Hi!
Ive been reading some back and forth on coolant types, and trying to get my head around this.

From what i`ve seen, the coolant containing 2-EHA, is very VERY NO-GO:

Issue Many Are Ignoring: Most Coolants Contain 2-EHA (which 'eats' silicone) - RX8Club.com

This wiki adresses the lawsuits and issues also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifreeze
Looking at this magical soup known as FL22 now...

From what i can see, FL22 is an ethylene glycol based longlife coolant.

FL22 120,000miles or 10 years
Others 60,000miles or 4 years

FL22 is silicate free it seems.

From a mazda 5 thread:
"

Not very clear, but it's just another new type of coolant. Says here on the bottle, "ethylene glycol based.... 55/45 mixture recommended..... developed to provide corrosion and rust protection.....boiling point 270 degrees, freezing point -47 degrees. Ingrediants: Ethylene Glycol (107-21-1), Water (7732-18-5), Diethylene Glycol (111-46-6), Potassium Hydroxide (1310-58-3), Proprietary Inhibitors (NJTSRN 217).

doing more searching..
"
All coolants are inherently clear. Ethyl-glycol type coolant is the most commonly used. Usually it is dyed green but some vehicle manufacturers dye it different colors - Toyota uses a red dye for example. You can find aftermarket brands in a variety of colors.

GM and Chrysler use Dex-Cool which is colored orange and chemically very different from Ethyl-Glycol coolants and should not be mixed with them.

Volkswagon and Audi use G12 which is colored yellow-orange so it sort of looks like Dex-Cool but is chemically closer to Ethyl-Glycol. Still, G12 should NEVER be mixed with any other type of coolant!

And the list goes on...

"

From what i can see, for rotaries one should use a ethylene glycol based, silicate free coolant. In norway the off the shelf, generic ethylene glycol based antifreeze is blue, not green as in US.

So, what coolants do you guys use? I cant see the need for using FL22 as long as one dont mind changing coolant abit more often..?
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Old 03-16-14, 11:30 AM
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VERY interresting read here:

True Colors
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Old 03-16-14, 09:10 PM
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no one?
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Old 03-16-14, 09:58 PM
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I only know about electrolysis in the rotary engine (disimilar metals, alloy, iron, etc) and I minimise electrolysis by running a sacrificial anode and checking the coolant voltage with a multimeter every so often.

What I DO NOT know much about, is the types of coolant the OP listed above... I am very clueless as to the types and composition.

I flushed my RX7 thoroughly when I first got it. I then put distilled water and GM/Toyota RED longlife coolant in the car. It has had RED GM coolant in it, for about four/five years now with no issues.

Is this wrong?
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Old 03-16-14, 10:18 PM
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All I can answer is the "what coolant do i use question"

Currently its the pre-mixed prestone 50/50 coolant (topped up with demineralised water to lower the coolant % and up the water %) It dosen't freeze here so more water for cooling, less glycol for anti-freezing properties works for me.

Only using the above because it was on special right after i dumped all my coolant on the ground at my last safety inspection
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Old 03-16-14, 10:50 PM
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Maybe the op can answer this,

Here is what I am running:

http://www.tectaloy.com/page29.html

Is this stuff acidic and eating my water seals? Should I drain it out? I am a bit worried after doing some research....
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Old 03-17-14, 12:00 AM
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Originally Posted by SA3R View Post
Maybe the op can answer this,

Here is what I am running:

Tectaloy Hi Load Red

Is this stuff acidic and eating my water seals? Should I drain it out? I am a bit worried after doing some research....

well, from the datasheet, it does not contain 2-eha.
and its ethylene glycol based?

http://www.tectaloy.com/Hi%20Load%20Red%20MSDS.pdf

Imo, you should be safe. The color has very little to do with it as anti freeze in general is color free. Thats what messing peoples minds up.

if you are uncertain, call your supplier.
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Old 03-17-14, 12:24 AM
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post 41 from the rx8 site thread in OP:

Issue Many Are Ignoring: Most Coolants Contain 2-EHA (which 'eats' silicone) - Page 2 - RX8Club.com



I've been doing some more research, and the plot thickens.

Honestly, I've never come across a more confusing, convoluted topic dealing with maintenance fluids than coolant (motor oil doesn't even come close to this level of absolute insanity).

I will really make this short, and allow everyone to do their own research, b/c I'm don't even know what is what.

What I do know:

Japanese automakers recommend a HOAT (Hybrid Organic Acid Technology) coolant, which is essentially a 2nd generation OAT one. By the way, Dexcool was the original Organic Acid Technology coolant, and OAT was introduced as a means of getting a longer life from coolants - the organic acid, whether benzoates, sebecates or 2-EH/2-EHA would act as a long term corrosion inhibitor, and this would allow for the reduction of the silicates (or removal altogether) that we knew in the "old school green" coolant, with those silicates doing an excellent job of corrosion prevention, but only for 2 years max, before they would no longer be suspended in the coolant, or "fallout," and do things like clog the water pump and leave white, scaly buildup and gunk everywhere.

Since so many people failed to stay on top of the frequent coolant changes with "old school green" high silicate coolant, manufacturers were seeing a lot of major damage to motors and radiators and other components while the vehicles were still under warranty, and they did not like this.

Hence the birth of Organic Acid Technology, low or no silicates coolant.

What the Japanese automakers want in their coolants is:

1) NO silicates.

2) NO borates (not low borates, but NO borates, just like the silicates).

3) They DO WANT phospates (Japanese makers WANT phospates in the coolant, as this has something to do with the type of water prevalent in Japan, which has to do with corrosion prevention), and

4) NO, NADA, ZERO 2-EHA or 2-EH (this gets tricky; see below as to why).


Okay, so the Mazda, Toyota, Nissan, Subaru Factory Fill and branded coolants meet these requirements, except that Honda's coolant apparently may not contain the phospates desired under number 3 above (?). Some claim Honda coolant just doesn't contain phospates, while others claim it does (?). I don't have a definitive answer as to who is correct.

Also, Zerex's "Asian Coolant" meets all these requirements. It's made by Ashland Chemical, which is one of the biggest companies making many different labeled coolants, oils and other fluids.

Now for the tricky part. CCI is a company that makes a LOT of the Japanese OE coolants, under the various Japanese automaker labels (including, I believe, Mazda's FL22).

As an example of how tricky this gets, let's take Toyota's red-colored extended life coolant sold under Toyota's own name at their dealers: It definitely does not contain 2-EHA nor 2-EH (even this gets tricky; are these the same, and are some coolants that claim that they have "no 2-EH" such as Peak GLOBAL engaging in trickery, because they actually do have 2-EHA while only stating they don't have 2-EH??), BUT the Toyota label long-life coolant DOES contain sebacates!

Sebacates are another form of organic acids, similar to 2-EH and 2-EHA, and in fact, were one of the main organic acids composing - da da! The original version of DEX-COOL (back in 1995 when it was introduced, and when the sludging and eating-of-LIMs-and-gaskets-issue-surfaced).

Not only did the original DEX-COOL that was so hated and despised have sebacates, but it was believed by many and STILL IS that sebacates are just as bad, IF NOT MORE SO, than 2-EH or 2-EHA, regarding silicone gaskets, hoses and other rubber/silicone parts, as sebacate is known to degrade silicone and rubber.

And for the final mind-cluster bomb? Many coolants that are HOATS, advertising that they are either and/or both 2-EH and 2-EHA free, and that have phosphates (which is required by Japanese manufacturers), often have MSDS sheets that do not specifically list WHICH organic acid they contain, instead choosing to list them under as "proprietary inhibitors."

They list these as "proprietary" for the ostensible reason that they don't want competitors to know what additive packages they're using as anti-corrosive, but this allows them to hide what could be some frowned upon ingredients from public view (intentionally or coincidentally).

SO, that's what I know. The more I learn, the more of a total cluster this all becomes.
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Old 03-17-14, 05:25 AM
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Originally Posted by oyvindjs View Post
well, from the datasheet, it does not contain 2-eha.
and its ethylene glycol based?

http://www.tectaloy.com/Hi%20Load%20Red%20MSDS.pdf

Imo, you should be safe. The color has very little to do with it as anti freeze in general is color free. Thats what messing peoples minds up.

if you are uncertain, call your supplier.
I did actually call the manufacturer shortly after posting. Their chemists had heard of the rotary and confirmed it is safe and compatible with our coolant seals, etc.

Don't know if you can get the Tectaloy Hi-Load red coolant in your part of the world, but it seems to be a good fit for the rotary as I was explained.
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