China parts - Might not be as bad as you think
03-23-13, 04:28 PM
#27
the valve is a 4140 alloy steel, also called chromium-molybdenum steel. melting point is at roughly 2600F and is a rather common hardened steel alloy.
the stainless seat is probably not a great mating surface but in real world applications it shouldn't be problematic as in the video unless subjected to more heat than it should ever be subjected to.
you will probably find the Tial components actually very similar in all respect to the cheap knockoffs.
the next question is the valve guide material and its tolerance, the chinese valves may have too tight of tolerances which may have seized the valve due to thermal expansion. most guides are likely going to be a bronze alloy which will expand more rapidly than the body, seat or valve, but only when exposed to higher than rated working temperatures and for longer than designed to.
the stainless seat is probably not a great mating surface but in real world applications it shouldn't be problematic as in the video unless subjected to more heat than it should ever be subjected to.
you will probably find the Tial components actually very similar in all respect to the cheap knockoffs.
the next question is the valve guide material and its tolerance, the chinese valves may have too tight of tolerances which may have seized the valve due to thermal expansion. most guides are likely going to be a bronze alloy which will expand more rapidly than the body, seat or valve, but only when exposed to higher than rated working temperatures and for longer than designed to.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 03-23-13 at 04:42 PM.
03-23-13, 05:00 PM
#28
^ ok thanks for that.
6,200 cycles at that kind of heat seems like a pretty good performance, yeah? They also said the 'gate wouldnt hold pressure brand new out of the box and couldnt be fitted anyway because of sloppy machining.
It would be interesting to see the tial's performance in the same test.
6,200 cycles at that kind of heat seems like a pretty good performance, yeah? They also said the 'gate wouldnt hold pressure brand new out of the box and couldnt be fitted anyway because of sloppy machining.
It would be interesting to see the tial's performance in the same test.
03-24-13, 02:22 AM
#32
It's always I heard from a guy, that knew a guy, that told that guy about his "bad" experience with X product which could be blown out of proportion to begin with. Honestly everyone is being a little too harsh and focusing on where the parts came from rather testing results and experiences.
FWIW, I worked for COBB Tuning for a few years and I would bet most of you trust their products right? Well hate to burst your bubble but I found out that they and almost every company they work with also have most their products manufactured in China. Reason which I'm sure you already know but outsourcing is far more superior than buying the tooling and materials in house. Naturally once X products arrived, QA had to be done (but it was all visual fyi). I would love to go on about how many parts from COBB's website are outsourced and how much cheaper it is but I did however sign the "trade secret agreement" before departing with them... I'll just say that it's a SMALL fraction of the cost. The environment suffering, cheap wages and knocking off the accomplished R&D is a major downside to all of this but everyone is in it for the money and that's not changing anytime soon.
At the end of the day, it's your car, your money; so you if you don't like it then don't buy it! How about lets make this thread useful, based on actual experience with X products and testing results to aid everyone on purchasing decisions.
My 2 cents: In all of my years in the tuning world the only parts I stand by from ebay and had zero issues thus far have been intercoolers, radiators, depo lights, IC piping, strut bars, and catch cans. I haven't ventured into the turbos or internal components.
FWIW, I worked for COBB Tuning for a few years and I would bet most of you trust their products right? Well hate to burst your bubble but I found out that they and almost every company they work with also have most their products manufactured in China. Reason which I'm sure you already know but outsourcing is far more superior than buying the tooling and materials in house. Naturally once X products arrived, QA had to be done (but it was all visual fyi). I would love to go on about how many parts from COBB's website are outsourced and how much cheaper it is but I did however sign the "trade secret agreement" before departing with them... I'll just say that it's a SMALL fraction of the cost. The environment suffering, cheap wages and knocking off the accomplished R&D is a major downside to all of this but everyone is in it for the money and that's not changing anytime soon.
At the end of the day, it's your car, your money; so you if you don't like it then don't buy it! How about lets make this thread useful, based on actual experience with X products and testing results to aid everyone on purchasing decisions.
My 2 cents: In all of my years in the tuning world the only parts I stand by from ebay and had zero issues thus far have been intercoolers, radiators, depo lights, IC piping, strut bars, and catch cans. I haven't ventured into the turbos or internal components.
Best post in this whole thread, I also work at a well known tuning shop and yes its true. If any of you think HKS or Greddy parts are strictly manufactured in Japan.....youre an idiot. Hell, just cause a company claims its manufactured here doesnt mean they arent lying, case in point AMS and Racing Beat. Seen it first hand in factories in CHINA.
03-25-13, 11:10 PM
#34
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It all depends, I have a guy making near 500whp on a OBX T04S pushing 20+psi, he is also running a OBX manifold and 50mm wastegate. It's been solid reliable car and has produced great results. As for my personal experience I trust OBX products as much as I do the Japanese brands.
03-27-13, 05:31 PM
#35
Best post in this whole thread, I also work at a well known tuning shop and yes its true. If any of you think HKS or Greddy parts are strictly manufactured in Japan.....youre an idiot. Hell, just cause a company claims its manufactured here doesnt mean they arent lying, case in point AMS and Racing Beat. Seen it first hand in factories in CHINA.
Someone already said it in the first page: It is not about being built in China, it is about the quality control in China.
A foreign company that manufactures in China still conforms to their quality standards from back home. Speaking from an engineering perspective and from someone who has traveled to China extensively, my biggest problem has always been quality control. I've worked with several companies and 90% of our issues where QA and or quality practices. For some strange reason the average worker just refused to listen, all I can gather that it must be a cultural thing. Beijing, Haikou, Shenzhen, Zhuhai it didn't matter how many times we told them or emphasize the importance, the second we turned our backs they were back at their old practices. So can imagine that it was constant struggle.
Now do you actually think that a knock off company is going to have that same standard as HKS? Yeah no.
03-27-13, 06:07 PM
#36
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I personally do not have a "problem" with parts made in China. The problem with these parts is that they are copying a product and stealing business from the companies who worked to gain market share and performed the R&D to make the product. If they worked and designed their own products under their own business name and spend the money to advertise, sponsor and positively contribute to the industry then they would deserve the profits they may make.
Having said this.... I have shine auto parts on my car
Having said this.... I have shine auto parts on my car
RX7 Nut13B: Thanks for starting this thread. It is nice to see some analysis on some imported parts.
03-27-13, 06:17 PM
#37
^This is why I don't buy things from China that are knock-offs. Until they adopt/create/enforce/conform to some sort of copyright or patent laws, I all but boycott the stuff. Nothing wrong with their manufacturing, and QC varies from plant to plant, and the price points rock. But the shot below the belt to the inventor and OEM are what I can't support.
truth is ALOT of **** comes from china, even things we think are quality products.
03-27-13, 07:00 PM
#38
In response to the posts stating its theft...
I agree that it is theft, 100%. however competition drives ingenuity. I dont necessarily mean leaps and bounds, but small improvements to an existing product, that makes it better. Then your customer is getting a reason to spend more.
IMO, chances are they return to their old habits because of the amount the make. If we are honest with ourselves, if we were making 5 bucks a day, we wouldn't give a rats *** about the quality of the part.
I agree that it is theft, 100%. however competition drives ingenuity. I dont necessarily mean leaps and bounds, but small improvements to an existing product, that makes it better. Then your customer is getting a reason to spend more.
Someone already said it in the first page: It is not about being built in China, it is about the quality control in China.
A foreign company that manufactures in China still conforms to their quality standards from back home. Speaking from an engineering perspective and from someone who has traveled to China extensively, my biggest problem has always been quality control. I've worked with several companies and 90% of our issues where QA and or quality practices. For some strange reason the average worker just refused to listen, all I can gather that it must be a cultural thing. Beijing, Haikou, Shenzhen, Zhuhai it didn't matter how many times we told them or emphasize the importance, the second we turned our backs they were back at their old practices. So can imagine that it was constant struggle.
Now do you actually think that a knock off company is going to have that same standard as HKS? Yeah no.
A foreign company that manufactures in China still conforms to their quality standards from back home. Speaking from an engineering perspective and from someone who has traveled to China extensively, my biggest problem has always been quality control. I've worked with several companies and 90% of our issues where QA and or quality practices. For some strange reason the average worker just refused to listen, all I can gather that it must be a cultural thing. Beijing, Haikou, Shenzhen, Zhuhai it didn't matter how many times we told them or emphasize the importance, the second we turned our backs they were back at their old practices. So can imagine that it was constant struggle.
Now do you actually think that a knock off company is going to have that same standard as HKS? Yeah no.
03-27-13, 07:33 PM
#39
it makes me wonder what limitations there are for trademarks and international sales. it would be nice if there was a way that the knockoffs couldn't print an "HKS" or "Tial" label on just anything they felt like without legal ramifications. part of the problem is many people don't even know they're getting knockoff parts and it looks bad for the true companies.
that is the one huge thing i would prefer to see omitted.
that is the one huge thing i would prefer to see omitted.
03-27-13, 09:35 PM
#40
Someone already said it in the first page: It is not about being built in China, it is about the quality control in China.
A foreign company that manufactures in China still conforms to their quality standards from back home. Speaking from an engineering perspective and from someone who has traveled to China extensively, my biggest problem has always been quality control. I've worked with several companies and 90% of our issues where QA and or quality practices. For some strange reason the average worker just refused to listen, all I can gather that it must be a cultural thing. Beijing, Haikou, Shenzhen, Zhuhai it didn't matter how many times we told them or emphasize the importance, the second we turned our backs they were back at their old practices. So can imagine that it was constant struggle.
Now do you actually think that a knock off company is going to have that same standard as HKS? Yeah no.
A foreign company that manufactures in China still conforms to their quality standards from back home. Speaking from an engineering perspective and from someone who has traveled to China extensively, my biggest problem has always been quality control. I've worked with several companies and 90% of our issues where QA and or quality practices. For some strange reason the average worker just refused to listen, all I can gather that it must be a cultural thing. Beijing, Haikou, Shenzhen, Zhuhai it didn't matter how many times we told them or emphasize the importance, the second we turned our backs they were back at their old practices. So can imagine that it was constant struggle.
Now do you actually think that a knock off company is going to have that same standard as HKS? Yeah no.
03-27-13, 10:00 PM
#41
^This is why I don't buy things from China that are knock-offs. Until they adopt/create/enforce/conform to some sort of copyright or patent laws, I all but boycott the stuff. Nothing wrong with their manufacturing, and QC varies from plant to plant, and the price points rock. But the shot below the belt to the inventor and OEM are what I can't support.
China Receives More Patent Applications Than the US
you can believe whatever you want, but to think "China has no creativity and they only steal" is just plain stupid.
03-28-13, 10:15 AM
#42
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it makes me wonder what limitations there are for trademarks and international sales. it would be nice if there was a way that the knockoffs couldn't print an "HKS" or "Tial" label on just anything they felt like without legal ramifications. part of the problem is many people don't even know they're getting knockoff parts and it looks bad for the true companies.
that is the one huge thing i would prefer to see omitted.
that is the one huge thing i would prefer to see omitted.
Yeah, keep thinking China "steal" more than "Create"
China Receives More Patent Applications Than the US
you can believe whatever you want, but to think "China has no creativity and they only steal" is just plain stupid.
China Receives More Patent Applications Than the US
you can believe whatever you want, but to think "China has no creativity and they only steal" is just plain stupid.
I said, "I don't buy Chineese knock offs", not that I dont buy Chineese. When you get that many people in a country with the industrial changes they are going through, you will have a ton of invention taking place. All I said was I don't buy the reverse engineered copies. They need to at least change something and make it their own before they go selling it. Most wastegates aren't that unique, but when they make a mold to produce EXACT copies I draw the line (for me).
Don't go putting words in my mouth. I didn't say they ONLY steal.
03-28-13, 10:27 AM
#43
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Just asking as ive seen this argument before.
03-28-13, 10:55 AM
#44
as it was mentioned, sometimes competition is good and helps us all move forward.
think if all the car manufacturers out there said "someone else already made the automobile so we don't want to step on their toes" that you would ever be driving an RX7? we'd all be driving cars with wood spoke wheels that have a top speed of 25 mph and hand crank starters. which is also called a monopoly and gives no reason to ever evolve a product.
think if all the car manufacturers out there said "someone else already made the automobile so we don't want to step on their toes" that you would ever be driving an RX7? we'd all be driving cars with wood spoke wheels that have a top speed of 25 mph and hand crank starters. which is also called a monopoly and gives no reason to ever evolve a product.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 03-28-13 at 11:00 AM.
03-28-13, 12:04 PM
#45
Read my reply 3-4 times then come back to me as you obviously didn't get the point.
These are companies making the original products for US/Japanese companies. We get sent one prototype item and QC it OURSELVES then tell the manufacturer whats wrong.....duh. Go take a look at Greddys new T78 kit. It comes with a rebadged TIAL wastegate. Believe what you will.
You basically confirmed what I said.... Foreign companies apply their more stringent QC stardars on THEIR manufacturing plants that are located in china. But a full on China design to manufacture or a knock off company? I do not trust.I believe what I see with my own two eyes and experience where I dealt with problems that I had to personally resolve due to quality control based out of China. I am not talking about some dinky small time HKS or greedy operations either. Think $100 million above companies where they have invested millions.
03-28-13, 12:53 PM
#46
I'd say materials is only half the battle when looking at something like this. It's easy to look up what temps metal alloys can withstand, what chemicals are going to react with the material. Nothing proprietary about that.
The other half is the machining/assembly of parts. The extra steps like de-burring a thread so an adjuster doesn't stick or controlling dimensional drift on a journal diameter so it fits securely in a bearing. Features or tight tolerances that are deemed unnecessary are removed during the backwards-engineering process. And the associated cost is removed. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't. But they don't have any responsibility if it fails. Think a customer is going to come knocking at their door for a $75 wastegate? Nope.
I really dislike the parts that are clearly branded in an attempt to mis-lead a customer. Unfortunately, it doesn't make sense to spend 100k in legal costs to shut down a company that is stealing 10k in sales. So there's no real downside for the producer. Requiring more vigilance from the end consumer who are rarely qualified to tell the difference.
Obviously a blanket all Chinese knock-off parts are Good/Bad isn't going to happen. But the first step is defining the problem better.
The other half is the machining/assembly of parts. The extra steps like de-burring a thread so an adjuster doesn't stick or controlling dimensional drift on a journal diameter so it fits securely in a bearing. Features or tight tolerances that are deemed unnecessary are removed during the backwards-engineering process. And the associated cost is removed. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't. But they don't have any responsibility if it fails. Think a customer is going to come knocking at their door for a $75 wastegate? Nope.
I really dislike the parts that are clearly branded in an attempt to mis-lead a customer. Unfortunately, it doesn't make sense to spend 100k in legal costs to shut down a company that is stealing 10k in sales. So there's no real downside for the producer. Requiring more vigilance from the end consumer who are rarely qualified to tell the difference.
Obviously a blanket all Chinese knock-off parts are Good/Bad isn't going to happen. But the first step is defining the problem better.
03-28-13, 06:55 PM
#47
I had this guy get smacked right on the head by a robotic arm and that was after being told NUMEROUS times to NOT stick his head in the work area. Sure enough one of the times that I was looking down SMACK! he ended up with a golfball size nugget right on the forehead
. Luckily for him the machine didn't pin him between a pole as his melon would have exploded. No joke and actually quite dangerous. But what can you do? The designated area was clearly marked and they were told numerious times not to cross because of the danger as we where working with live units. To put it mildly we were astonished at the lack of direction even at the expense of their well being. In every factory that I went it was basically the same struggle. Go figure
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