Champagne Test
11-06-06, 09:02 AM
#1
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11-06-06, 11:38 AM
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11-06-06, 01:05 PM
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Dan Cernese
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Originally Posted by charlies7
WOW that looks bad...When i had a blown coolant seal it wasnt even that bad.
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11-06-06, 01:26 PM
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Speed Mach Go Go Go
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damn, you need to change that crap! I can't tell if it's rust or copperseal. If you just bought the car then most likely copperseal to hide bad o-ring failure (seal doesnt last long). It's also possible the color is the wrong coolant, like the gold stuff used in my F150. Change it several times but don't flush with machine and dont use chemical flush. open the bolt and drain the block to. o-ring failure would cause alot of white smoke on cold startup because its burning the coolant that seeped in to the combustion chamber.
11-06-06, 04:40 PM
#11
Here are a couple of other videos showing people's coolant seals:
Bad coolant seal(s):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4p5wlc6Ec6o
Good coolant seals (very long, cold start)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kplCNrR2juw
Regarding replacement coolant seals, I've heard two different opinions: some people say to upgrade to the teflon-coated o-rings, and others recommend using the OEM mazda seals because they are square and they match the groove (the aftermarket seals are round, and Atkins Rotary doesn't recommend using them because of this).
-s-
Bad coolant seal(s):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4p5wlc6Ec6o
Good coolant seals (very long, cold start)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kplCNrR2juw
Regarding replacement coolant seals, I've heard two different opinions: some people say to upgrade to the teflon-coated o-rings, and others recommend using the OEM mazda seals because they are square and they match the groove (the aftermarket seals are round, and Atkins Rotary doesn't recommend using them because of this).
-s-
11-06-06, 06:51 PM
#14
Warming the planet.
The "Champagne Test" is far from a definitive test. For all you know your seeing soap bubbles created buy the water pump churning up what ever that crap is in your cooling system. take the car to a smog station ( or the British equivalent ) and have them test for hydrocarbons at the filler cap. All that being said, if you've been losing coolant and/or over heating, you most likely have a stuffed o ring.
By the way the mazda o ring has a teflon liner on the inside.
By the way the mazda o ring has a teflon liner on the inside.
11-06-06, 07:26 PM
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So, the big difference in the two videos, is that in the Yellow funney video, the bubbles will eventually go away? I mean, how does one differentiate from coolant seal failure bubbles and cooland system de-gassing bubbles?
11-06-06, 07:35 PM
#16
Originally Posted by Gadd
The "Champagne Test" is far from a definitive test. For all you know your seeing soap bubbles created buy the water pump churning up what ever that crap is in your cooling system. take the car to a smog station ( or the British equivalent ) and have them test for hydrocarbons at the filler cap. All that being said, if you've been losing coolant and/or over heating, you most likely have a stuffed o ring.
11-06-06, 08:20 PM
#17
Speed Mach Go Go Go
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Coolant o-ring seal fail looks more like many little fizzy 7-up or champagne bubbles, like when you just filled your glass. Burping should be medium to large bubbles like boiling water. You can do a pressure test but first replace the coolant a few times (yourself if possible) becuase most likely it's rust or copperseal. If it's copperseal then it's hiding o-ring failure becuase the seal will not last more then a few weeks.
Do you have an aftermarket water temp gauge? ...if so, what are the temps?
Has the water level warning lite been turning on?
Have you been having to fill the radiator with water/coolant?
Have you noticed alot of white smoke on the first startup of the day?
Do you have an aftermarket water temp gauge? ...if so, what are the temps?
Has the water level warning lite been turning on?
Have you been having to fill the radiator with water/coolant?
Have you noticed alot of white smoke on the first startup of the day?
Last edited by GoRacer; 11-06-06 at 08:22 PM.
11-07-06, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by GoRacer
Do you have an aftermarket water temp gauge? ...if so, what are the temps?
Has the water level warning lite been turning on?
Have you been having to fill the radiator with water/coolant?
Have you noticed alot of white smoke on the first startup of the day?
I had to put quite a bit of water in on sunday, first time i checked in a few runs.
White smoke? Check this out... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lTQS9PjAqA
11-07-06, 08:45 AM
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Dan Cernese
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Originally Posted by atd
I havent got an after market temp gauge - but the temps never rise,
11-07-06, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by dhcernese
OMG. You have got to do a little basic reading. The stock temperature gauge is center weighted. If it ever moves up, your engine is already toast.
No basic reading required, but thanks for your interest!! The cooling system in a stock car is sufficient. I know that once the needle moves its game over!!
I am very lucky that I have a warranty with this car. Been to rotary specialist today who is not overly concerned, but has given me a few things to look out for over the next few days, depending on these it will be stripped down in the next few weeks.
ATD.
11-07-06, 11:22 AM
#21
Originally Posted by atd
The cooling system in a stock car is sufficient.
Re: bubbles in the yellow video, notice that there wasn't a constant stream of bubbles, there would be no bubbles for a minute or two. Also, the bubbles were large, like a person exhaling underwater. That video was taken after draining and refilling the radiator, which leaves lots of air pockets in the system. Those large bubbles are due to air pockets working their way out of the system. After about 5-15 more minutes, that car didn't have any more bubbles. I wish I had better footage of this, but that tape is a year or two old.
Something I learned while shooting this video is that you'll need to turn the fans on before the system reaches 213F and the water boils (because the fans don't turn on until 220F). This is difficult without an accurate temp gauge. Without a temp gauge, you could just turn the A/C on, but that will keep the temps pretty cold; you won't get much flow through the radiator because the thermostat will be closed.
30,000 miles later, my coolant seals are now failing (due to boosting when the engine was still cold in February). There is a steady stream of small bubbles, and you can create more bubbles by opening the throttle. I've been meaning to take some video footage of this, but simply haven't gotten around to it yet. I'll try to upload something this weekend.
-s-
11-07-06, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by scotty305
-Only if it is in original working condition. If your system isn't holding pressure (because of old caps or hoses), then it's no longer sufficient even for stock power levels. Fair comment!
Re: bubbles in the yellow video, notice that there wasn't a constant stream of bubbles, there would be no bubbles for a minute or two. Also, the bubbles were large, like a person exhaling underwater. That video was taken after draining and refilling the radiator, which leaves lots of air pockets in the system. Those large bubbles are due to air pockets working their way out of the system. After about 5-15 more minutes, that car didn't have any more bubbles. I wish I had better footage of this, but that tape is a year or two old.
Something I learned while shooting this video is that you'll need to turn the fans on before the system reaches 213F and the water boils (because the fans don't turn on until 220F). This is difficult without an accurate temp gauge. Without a temp gauge, you could just turn the A/C on, but that will keep the temps pretty cold; you won't get much flow through the radiator because the thermostat will be closed.
30,000 miles later, my coolant seals are now failing (due to boosting when the engine was still cold in February). There is a steady stream of small bubbles, and you can create more bubbles by opening the throttle. I've been meaning to take some video footage of this, but simply haven't gotten around to it yet. I'll try to upload something this weekend.
-s-
Re: bubbles in the yellow video, notice that there wasn't a constant stream of bubbles, there would be no bubbles for a minute or two. Also, the bubbles were large, like a person exhaling underwater. That video was taken after draining and refilling the radiator, which leaves lots of air pockets in the system. Those large bubbles are due to air pockets working their way out of the system. After about 5-15 more minutes, that car didn't have any more bubbles. I wish I had better footage of this, but that tape is a year or two old.
Something I learned while shooting this video is that you'll need to turn the fans on before the system reaches 213F and the water boils (because the fans don't turn on until 220F). This is difficult without an accurate temp gauge. Without a temp gauge, you could just turn the A/C on, but that will keep the temps pretty cold; you won't get much flow through the radiator because the thermostat will be closed.
30,000 miles later, my coolant seals are now failing (due to boosting when the engine was still cold in February). There is a steady stream of small bubbles, and you can create more bubbles by opening the throttle. I've been meaning to take some video footage of this, but simply haven't gotten around to it yet. I'll try to upload something this weekend.
-s-
11-07-06, 12:41 PM
#23
Personally, I'd catch up on basic maintenance first:
First off, change your coolant a few times. Flush it with water until it's clear, and then add a 60/40 mix of water / Ethylene Glycol (standard green antifreeze).
I'd also replace both radiator caps, and the thermostat as well (Use an OEM thermostat, and I recommend a 16psi cap on the AST). From there, do a pressure test to see if your system has any leaks. You might need to replace some worn hoses. If your system doesn't hold pressure, but you can't see any leaks, then you've already narrowed it down to the coolant seals.
From the sound of your idle, you probably need new spark plugs and wires as well. If you don't know when the oil or fuel filter was last changed, then change both of those ASAP.
It wouldn't hurt to install an accurate temperature gauge, you can pick one up for under $50 USD, and the throttle body coolant line is easy to get to. If you don't like the look of gauges, it's possible to put it inside the glovebox without cutting anything. You can pass a wire (and a line for a boost gauge) through the passenger's side fender, PM me if you want photos.
Be warned, however: if there IS copper-seal or block-weld holding your coolant seals together, a coolant change could remove some of that, and your car might become more difficult to start when it's cold.
Depending on how many miles are on the engine, I wouldn't be surprised if your coolant seals are failing. Note that I say "failing" and not necessarily "dead," "shot," or "gone." In my opinion, the coolant seals are gone when the car is no longer drivable: either because it doesn't start or doesn't get you to your destination without overheating. I've been driving (even autocross racing) my car with my coolant seals 'failing' since March.
The coolant seals are just gaskets, like rubber o-rings with a very large diameter . They keep the combustion gasses out of the coolant jackets, and vice versa. If you've got a split or a tear in your o-ring, there are two things that can happen:
1.) Coolant gets into the combustion chamber, causing a rough idle and/or starting issues, especially when the engine is cold.
2.) Combustion gasses get into the coolant system. This will make the car more likely to overheat, by creating air pockets and/or overpressurizing the system which forcing coolant out of the overflow cap.
Remember that our motor is made of metal plates, which expand as their temperature rises. For a more effective seal, there are rubber gaskets sandwiched between the metal plates: these are the coolant seals. As with any other metal, our housings expand as they warm up. They are designed to work at normal engine temperatures, for instance 180-220F. At low temps, the gaps between the housings are larger. At high temps, the housings expand too much, which can cause warpage.
COLD MOTOR
When the housings are cold, the gap between them is large, and the rubber coolant seals are exposed to more combustion pressure than at normal operating temperatures. Boosting when the car is cold will tear the rubber o-rings. For the same reason, a torn o-ring will let a LOT of coolant into the chambers when the motor is cold, which will cause white smoke at startup. As the metals warm up and expand, the white smoke will decrease or cease altogether.
HOT MOTOR
At temperatures that are too high, the housings can expand beyond the designed limits and warp. Materials is not my specialty, but I know that this is a very bad thing. You do not want your housings to warp. Don't forget that rubber is even more fragile than metal: some engine builders have been quoted as saying that coolant seals can be damaged at temps as low as 235F.
Sorry this is lengthy, but I've been meaning to write about coolant seals in my Big Fat Cooling thread eventually. Feel free to check it out, there's lots more info about the cooling system there:
https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generation-specific-1993-2002-16/big-fat-fd3s-cooling-thread-571088/
-s-
First off, change your coolant a few times. Flush it with water until it's clear, and then add a 60/40 mix of water / Ethylene Glycol (standard green antifreeze).
I'd also replace both radiator caps, and the thermostat as well (Use an OEM thermostat, and I recommend a 16psi cap on the AST). From there, do a pressure test to see if your system has any leaks. You might need to replace some worn hoses. If your system doesn't hold pressure, but you can't see any leaks, then you've already narrowed it down to the coolant seals.
From the sound of your idle, you probably need new spark plugs and wires as well. If you don't know when the oil or fuel filter was last changed, then change both of those ASAP.
It wouldn't hurt to install an accurate temperature gauge, you can pick one up for under $50 USD, and the throttle body coolant line is easy to get to. If you don't like the look of gauges, it's possible to put it inside the glovebox without cutting anything. You can pass a wire (and a line for a boost gauge) through the passenger's side fender, PM me if you want photos.
Be warned, however: if there IS copper-seal or block-weld holding your coolant seals together, a coolant change could remove some of that, and your car might become more difficult to start when it's cold.
Depending on how many miles are on the engine, I wouldn't be surprised if your coolant seals are failing. Note that I say "failing" and not necessarily "dead," "shot," or "gone." In my opinion, the coolant seals are gone when the car is no longer drivable: either because it doesn't start or doesn't get you to your destination without overheating. I've been driving (even autocross racing) my car with my coolant seals 'failing' since March.
The coolant seals are just gaskets, like rubber o-rings with a very large diameter . They keep the combustion gasses out of the coolant jackets, and vice versa. If you've got a split or a tear in your o-ring, there are two things that can happen:
1.) Coolant gets into the combustion chamber, causing a rough idle and/or starting issues, especially when the engine is cold.
2.) Combustion gasses get into the coolant system. This will make the car more likely to overheat, by creating air pockets and/or overpressurizing the system which forcing coolant out of the overflow cap.
Remember that our motor is made of metal plates, which expand as their temperature rises. For a more effective seal, there are rubber gaskets sandwiched between the metal plates: these are the coolant seals. As with any other metal, our housings expand as they warm up. They are designed to work at normal engine temperatures, for instance 180-220F. At low temps, the gaps between the housings are larger. At high temps, the housings expand too much, which can cause warpage.
COLD MOTOR
When the housings are cold, the gap between them is large, and the rubber coolant seals are exposed to more combustion pressure than at normal operating temperatures. Boosting when the car is cold will tear the rubber o-rings. For the same reason, a torn o-ring will let a LOT of coolant into the chambers when the motor is cold, which will cause white smoke at startup. As the metals warm up and expand, the white smoke will decrease or cease altogether.
HOT MOTOR
At temperatures that are too high, the housings can expand beyond the designed limits and warp. Materials is not my specialty, but I know that this is a very bad thing. You do not want your housings to warp. Don't forget that rubber is even more fragile than metal: some engine builders have been quoted as saying that coolant seals can be damaged at temps as low as 235F.
Sorry this is lengthy, but I've been meaning to write about coolant seals in my Big Fat Cooling thread eventually. Feel free to check it out, there's lots more info about the cooling system there:
https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generation-specific-1993-2002-16/big-fat-fd3s-cooling-thread-571088/
-s-
11-07-06, 01:21 PM
#24
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Scotty305, you are a gent. Your thread (https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=571088) has been used on the mazdarotaryclub.co.uk
The caps were changed 600kms ago, the oil and filter last week. I have just received my new spark plugs this morning along with a new air and fuel filter!
I think my car idles well, can you post a video of yours at idle from cold?
Thank you again, despite the problems this car gives me, I just love it more!!
The caps were changed 600kms ago, the oil and filter last week. I have just received my new spark plugs this morning along with a new air and fuel filter!
I think my car idles well, can you post a video of yours at idle from cold?
Thank you again, despite the problems this car gives me, I just love it more!!
11-07-06, 01:51 PM
#25
^^ That's interesting. I'd love to see a link to the UK website.
I'm not sure if I've got any video of my car at idle, but I'll try to take some before/after footage next time I change plugs. Your idle isn't particularly bad, but if the coolant looks like that I'd change the plugs immediately, just in case the whole car was neglected by the previous owner.
One thing I did this summer was drill a few small (1/8", maybe 5mm diameter) holes around the perimeter of the OEM thermostat, it will force more coolant to flow through the radiator at any given temp, and also allows air bubbles to escape even when the thermostat is closed.
It sounds like you're starting off right, taking care of maintenance first.
Watch the throttle in 2nd-gear corners, things get interesting when the second turbo kicks in mid-corner. If your tires are old, a new set of shoes can save you a lot of money on bodywork later down the road. I use Avon 245/45R16 on OEM wheels, they fit perfectly and have lasted a good 20,000 miles.
-s-
I'm not sure if I've got any video of my car at idle, but I'll try to take some before/after footage next time I change plugs. Your idle isn't particularly bad, but if the coolant looks like that I'd change the plugs immediately, just in case the whole car was neglected by the previous owner.
One thing I did this summer was drill a few small (1/8", maybe 5mm diameter) holes around the perimeter of the OEM thermostat, it will force more coolant to flow through the radiator at any given temp, and also allows air bubbles to escape even when the thermostat is closed.
It sounds like you're starting off right, taking care of maintenance first.
Watch the throttle in 2nd-gear corners, things get interesting when the second turbo kicks in mid-corner. If your tires are old, a new set of shoes can save you a lot of money on bodywork later down the road. I use Avon 245/45R16 on OEM wheels, they fit perfectly and have lasted a good 20,000 miles.
-s-