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Can only select 5th & Reverse Gears (1st - 4th won't engage)
Greetings Everyone,
I've searched everywhere and can only find problems relating to being unable to shift into reverse, but I seem to have the opposite problem.
I'm only able to select 5th and Reverse, 1st - 4th aren't selectable, even when trying to force the shifter. Doesn't matter if the car is running or not. No gear grinding either.
New Clutch, flywheel, pilot bearing, master and slave cylendar, system has been bled and I'm able to release the clutch in reverse and the car moves. 5th bogs for obvious reasons.
Gearbox has been out of the car for 2 years due to an engine rebuild and I believe it was fine when removed. All fluids were replaced when it was reinstalled.
I'm a bit at a loss on where to start. Any gearbox gurus heard of this one?
With the car off, does the shifter flat out not go into gear? Like you're hitting a wall trying to get it to the gear?
+1 on the clutch backwards thing - that will basically make the clutch non-operable and engaged all the time.
If it doesn't go into gear at all with the car off it could be tsomething with the spring that the shift lever pushes against to push to the left (1-2 gears).
If I remember correctly, years back I killed a tranny on my FD from shifting too hard, hit the gate between a 2nd-3rd shift and ended up bending a shift fork. Ended up taking out 5th and reverse. Similar situation....car running or not, would not go into gear.
cr-rex and Dale - It could be clutch related, but with the Engine running I can depress the clutch and hear the gearbox stop turning over in neutral (I still have the boot covers off at the moment and can see the back of the gearbox and Tailshaft from inside)
I can engage reverse with the car running and even declutch and move, 5th can be engaged in the same way. But they're the only 2 gears I can select, engine running, clutch depressed in and out, and also while not running I can select them.
I can move the shifter both left and right, can feel the gate notches for 1st - 2nd and 3rd - 4th but no matter what I've tried, it feels like I hit a wall when pushing up or pulling down into them.
Iceman - I'm hoping that it's not bent forks, but it could always be possible, I was able to select all gears when I removed the gearbox a couple of years ago, maybe letting it sit for a while caused something to bind? This was the first check since re installing the gearbox after the Engine Rebuild, the shifter has had new springs and bushings installed as well
It's a stock shifter and hasn't been modified at all, I have installed the solid metal shifter bushing upgrade and the poly bushings and new turret springs (all from Atkins)
I know you don't wna hear this, but you're gna have to pull that trans. If nothing else, to verify everything is solid. If you can't engage the gears with the car off, try again with the trans removed from the car. If it works like advertised, it has to do with the clutch/ throw-out bearing, etc. If it doesn't shift separated from the engine, time to take it apart or take it to a transmission specialist.
That rebuild kit is not necessarily what you'll need, and you will have to make or buy special tools if they're not on hand.
Syncros breaking in the tail end of the box is common, but less so on 1 - 4 and the amount of dough on that kit is more than a complete late secondhand box is worth. If you think there's something off in the first 4 gears rather than the selection mechanism, draining the box and dropping the inspection plate would be my first move....sounds something like sprung detents instead to me, but how that goes from working to not, sitting, appears to be the makings of a mystery novel!
As a left field option, I have seen this happen before but not on an FD trans. If the transmission sat for a long period of time without oil in it in the vertical position moisture is able to seep inside ( or any position really ). I had a transmission that had sat for some years it would not go in the first through fourth ( 4 speed t-10 ) but would go into reverse. What had actually happened is the clutch hub set, which is the part the shift fork attaches to which in turns slides forward or backward on the shaft to select which gear is selected had stuck to the shaft. It would make sense that you can shift into fifth and reverse considering that hub set is together and consequently on the other side of a divider towards the back of the transmission. Not being able to shift in the first second or third fourth are two separate ones. If I was in your position, before I pull the transmission out of the car I would remove the inspection plate on the bottom. Have someone in the car operate the shifter and see if the forks are attempting to move the hub on those two sets of gears. It’s very easy to see. I took some lubricant and sprayed on it and a big flat head screwdriver and was able to pop both hubs loose and get them working ( back and forth a few times) . You have to be careful that you don’t damage the synchronizer rings that are adjacent to the hub. Just wanted to throw that out there before you go through all the time and energy to remove and rebuild. The transmission of mine is still in use today, and that was five years back. Good luck!
I gotta ask because no one has mentioned it yet.....how you tried rolling the car forward or backward and THEN tried getting into gear? Before I put a new clutch in mine it did something similar. One time i was literally stuck in a parking spot because I couldn't get into reverse no matter what I tried. I rolled the car back a little bit (boy that was funny to watch) and then it worked. In the end, this was a temporary fix just to get me home. The real fix was replacing the clutch.
That rebuild kit is not necessarily what you'll need, and you will have to make or buy special tools if they're not on hand.
Syncros breaking in the tail end of the box is common, but less so on 1 - 4 and the amount of dough on that kit is more than a complete late secondhand box is worth. If you think there's something off in the first 4 gears rather than the selection mechanism, draining the box and dropping the inspection plate would be my first move....sounds something like sprung detents instead to me, but how that goes from working to not, sitting, appears to be the makings of a mystery novel!
Cheers for the info billyboy, Pulling the trans isn't that big of a job, it's the re-install that's a pain. If I can get away with dropping the inspection plate instead, I'll give it a go.
As for the cost, it's not easy to find a used transmission here in Australia, I've been on the lookout for the last year for a used REW with trans and still yet to find one. Spares for the SA and FC are pretty common here though.
And I'm with you man, working to sitting and now not working has me totally stumped. I can at least pass on what I find to help someone else out in future.
As a left field option, I have seen this happen before but not on an FD trans. If the transmission sat for a long period of time without oil in it in the vertical position moisture is able to seep inside ( or any position really ). I had a transmission that had sat for some years it would not go in the first through fourth ( 4 speed t-10 ) but would go into reverse. What had actually happened is the clutch hub set, which is the part the shift fork attaches to which in turns slides forward or backward on the shaft to select which gear is selected had stuck to the shaft. It would make sense that you can shift into fifth and reverse considering that hub set is together and consequently on the other side of a divider towards the back of the transmission. Not being able to shift in the first second or third fourth are two separate ones. If I was in your position, before I pull the transmission out of the car I would remove the inspection plate on the bottom. Have someone in the car operate the shifter and see if the forks are attempting to move the hub on those two sets of gears. It’s very easy to see. I took some lubricant and sprayed on it and a big flat head screwdriver and was able to pop both hubs loose and get them working ( back and forth a few times) . You have to be careful that you don’t damage the synchronizer rings that are adjacent to the hub. Just wanted to throw that out there before you go through all the time and energy to remove and rebuild. The transmission of mine is still in use today, and that was five years back. Good luck!
~GW
Thanks gdub! Will give it a try, if it's something as simple as removing the inspection plate and freeing the hubs and forks up, it's worth trying for sure!
I gotta ask because no one has mentioned it yet.....how you tried rolling the car forward or backward and THEN tried getting into gear? Before I put a new clutch in mine it did something similar. One time i was literally stuck in a parking spot because I couldn't get into reverse no matter what I tried. I rolled the car back a little bit (boy that was funny to watch) and then it worked. In the end, this was a temporary fix just to get me home. The real fix was replacing the clutch.
Unfortunately, yes I have,
I've been rolling the car in and out of my garage over the last few months to work on the Gague and Stereo wiring. It's a single car garage and doesn't have enough room to open both doors to do interior work. Finally was happy with the wiring and put the dash back in for the last time and installed the shifter, finding this problem. I didn't install the shifter earlier as it was easier to move the dash around without the shifter in the way.
I also rolled it on motor and off in reverse and fifth thinking the same thing, great suggestion though!
Sorry everyone, spent the weekend rebuilding my brake master and didn't get around to the transmission yet. But I have done some further research.
There are 2 major possibilities.
1. (As already mentioned) the hubs and forks for 1-2 and 3-4 are stuck to the mainshaft. TOTALLY possible based on the service manual diagram. (Forks are 11 & 12)
2. Old bushing debris clogging the shifter in the extension housing (May need to give it a further clean, but I'm sure it was clean before I added the fresh gear oil)
Anyway, so it wasn't an entire waste, here's some pictures from the brake master rebuild.
- Remove circlip and spacer ring (May require some prying with a flat head screwdriver)
- Place piston in bench vice (protect it with a cloth if you wish) and hit rear flange to pop out the rear piston assembly.
- Remove 9mm stop pin and work front piston assembly against the spring. If it won't come out easily, use some compressed air to pop it out.
- Clean the bore with brake cleaner and shop towel or a soft rag, being careful not to scratch the bore
- Assemble the replacement pistons and seals
- Pour a small amount of clean brake fluid down the bore and wash it around.
- Apply rubber grease to the Piston seals and o-rings
- Replace the 9mm stop pin o-ring
- Add some more clean brake fluid to aid in bleeding, Insert the front piston and using a screw driver, press down while inserting the 9mm stop pin, tighten down
- Insert the rear piston assembly and apply even pressure to push it into the bore
- Install the spacer and circlip into the groove, a flat head screw driver is helpful to press the circlip in flat
- Replace the outer o-ring on the flange
- Fill the front part of the resevoir part way and hand pump the piston to bench bleed. Once installed, connect the clutch master hose and fill
- Give the clutch a couple of pumps
- Pump the brake pedal like a mad man until the fluid stops sloshing around in the resevoir
- Bleed the clutch slave and brakes as normal, top up fluid as required during bleeding
- Do not forget that the rear brakes and clutch master have a wall separating the fluid from the front part of the resevoir
Just in case you're unaware, dgeeseman(sp?) documented gearbox rebuilding here several years ago, there might still be active links to the pdfs.
The two little covers on the upper lhs give access to the shift forks, with a mirror and screwdriver you may be able to coax a bit of movement, as long as the roll pins haven't sheared.....this was a method used with a POS PAR cluster in a mate's car....although he used a holesaw through the transmission tunnel and a BFH to speed the process!
Don't know where you are, but Matt Lisle has boxes and halfcuts, and Jap import rx8 5 speeds you could use with minor swaps of components. That kit will probably be $900 landed and you might find you'd want hubs as a wear component too. Did find it much cheaper to buy that offshore and the bearings locally.
I'll be dropping the pan this weekend and seeing if it's the forks that might be stuck. I've had a bit of a brainstorm with my neighbour who's been helping me with the rebuild and he has a feeling that a few love taps from an Alloy Punch and Hammer may coax the forks loose if they're the problem.
Only just starting to dig in, removed the pan with a dead blow and pry bar by finding a lip to lever on. It didn't need too much persuasion to come loose.
Pan had a bit of gunk in it, will give it a clean out
It's looking ok at the fork side, not sure if the synchro gears are just ever so slightly out of alignment. Going to give it a clean up and see what it looks like when trying to move the shifter.
It would make sense that you can shift into fifth and reverse considering that hub set is together and consequently on the other side of a divider towards the back of the transmission. Not being able to shift in the first second or third fourth are two separate ones. If I was in your position, before I pull the transmission out of the car I would remove the inspection plate on the bottom. Have someone in the car operate the shifter and see if the forks are attempting to move the hub on those two sets of gears. It’s very easy to see. I took some lubricant and sprayed on it and a big flat head screwdriver and was able to pop both hubs loose and get them working ( back and forth a few times) . You have to be careful that you don’t damage the synchronizer rings that are adjacent to the hub.
Originally Posted by billyboy
The two little covers on the upper lhs give access to the shift forks, with a mirror and screwdriver you may be able to coax a bit of movement, as long as the roll pins haven't sheared.....
Absolutely Spot On GDUB and Billyboy!
As it turned out, the Shift Rod for 3rd-4th was stuck by baked on old oil. I took the pry bar and covered it in a rag and pressed it back into 3rd gear and it got stuck.
Placed the pry bar on the other side of the fork, where it connects to the shifter rail, and gently tapped it with the dead blow hammer to get it back to neutral.
After re-installing the shifter, I can now select all gears. 1st-4th felt like it was still gummy, so a bit of brake clean while moving it between 1st-2nd and 3rd-4th freed it up nicely.
Time to reseal the pan and fill with more clean gear oil!
That’s great you found the problem. Giving that a good clean out with brake clean and working it back-and-forth will remove the gum and trash in there.
One thing I forgot to mention is after you get it free and working before you reinstall the pan make sure you leave the shifter in neutral and do not move it or select a gear until you have the pan buttoned up, filled with oil and the car running at operating temperature for at least 10 to 15 minutes. I made the mistake after I buttoned everything up and had oil in it before I started it I operated the shifter through the gears and it stuck again. This forced me to drain the oil and take the pan back off again to pop it back. Allowing it to come up to operating temperature will help disperse the oil and re-lubricate the assembly. Also, don’t forget to top off the oil in the extension housing ( shifter ). It probably wouldn’t hurt to change the oil again in 1000 miles or so.
I've already left it in neutral for over night and will be filling it with oil tomorrow afternoon as I need to allow the sealant to cure before adding oil.
I'll definitely be letting it warm up in neutral to get the oil cycling before attempting to shift, great tip!
Wish me luck as this was the last step in getting it drivable since I decided to drop it out to replace the clutch 2 years ago, which escillated to a full engine rebuild, hoses, suspension, wiring, brake and clutch hydraulics, etc...
08-02-20, 04:43 AM
