Bottoming out with Tokico's and Eibach's!?
08-16-04, 08:15 PM
#1
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Bottoming out with Tokico's and Eibach's!?
I always thought Tokico Illumina's and Eibach springs were a good combo for the FD. I easily bottom out this combo, not even only in hard corners but also high speed dips. I mean it's extremely bad, the struts are set on full firm at 5, and they are around 10k miles old. I bought the car used so I'm not sure if they perform the same as they did new.
Any suggestions? Is 1 the firmest setting rather than 5?
Something else in my suspension wrong?
Any suggestions? Is 1 the firmest setting rather than 5?
Something else in my suspension wrong?
08-16-04, 08:47 PM
#2
Racing Rotary Since 1983
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FDs do not have STRUTS. FDs have shock absorbers.
if your shocks are set on full stiff they are capable of rattling the fillings out of your teeth. the ride will be just like bottoming out.
adjust the shocks to "2" and report back.
howard coleman
if your shocks are set on full stiff they are capable of rattling the fillings out of your teeth. the ride will be just like bottoming out.
adjust the shocks to "2" and report back.
howard coleman
08-16-04, 08:50 PM
#3
Rotary Enthusiast
I had the same problem with Koni Shocks and Racing Beat Springs. Adjusting the shocks to a stiffer lever did me no good. Bottoming out was REALLY bad if I was turning and hit even a minimal dip. Eventually I just switched back to stock springs.
My suggestion would be switching back to the stock springs or maybe getting a stiffer springs. I don't think tightening up the shocks will do much.
-John
My suggestion would be switching back to the stock springs or maybe getting a stiffer springs. I don't think tightening up the shocks will do much.
-John
08-16-04, 08:53 PM
#4
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I agree that full hard is not needed but on the Tokico's that adjustment is more amusing than usefull.
I have/should say had the same combo. It happened all the time like you are experiencing. I wrote it off as the combo. Later when i tore the entire car apart I found that every pillow ball bushing in the rear was worn out. Hence most of my clunking and bottoming out "feeling"
Try checking those out and replace if the car has more than 25-50K on it. Espeacially if it was ever driven hard ( tracked etc..)
I have since gotten TEIN Flex coilovers and replaced the pillowballs. Now the engine is showing up and i will see if I eliminated the feeling and sound.
As ISUposs stated below... I checked for markings from the tire and such with no luck. That is why i was puzzled for soo long. I think the pillows will take care of my problems.... Well with the car anyways!
A little trick to see how far your shocks are traveling is to put a zip-tie or 2 around the shock shaft. Set the car down and go for a drive like you normally drive to get it to act up. Then come back, jack up the car and see what the travel distance is when the shock moves up. NOTE: You need to get a baseline measurement of the shock rod height to tell the difference in travel) If it IS bottoming the zip-tie would be buried at the top of the shaft rod. Otherwise you can measure to see what travel you are getting. If you have a lift to keep the suspension in loaded form you can put 2 ties on to see where the normal height and travel height differ.
I have/should say had the same combo. It happened all the time like you are experiencing. I wrote it off as the combo. Later when i tore the entire car apart I found that every pillow ball bushing in the rear was worn out. Hence most of my clunking and bottoming out "feeling"
Try checking those out and replace if the car has more than 25-50K on it. Espeacially if it was ever driven hard ( tracked etc..)
I have since gotten TEIN Flex coilovers and replaced the pillowballs. Now the engine is showing up and i will see if I eliminated the feeling and sound.
As ISUposs stated below... I checked for markings from the tire and such with no luck. That is why i was puzzled for soo long. I think the pillows will take care of my problems.... Well with the car anyways!
A little trick to see how far your shocks are traveling is to put a zip-tie or 2 around the shock shaft. Set the car down and go for a drive like you normally drive to get it to act up. Then come back, jack up the car and see what the travel distance is when the shock moves up. NOTE: You need to get a baseline measurement of the shock rod height to tell the difference in travel) If it IS bottoming the zip-tie would be buried at the top of the shaft rod. Otherwise you can measure to see what travel you are getting. If you have a lift to keep the suspension in loaded form you can put 2 ties on to see where the normal height and travel height differ.
Last edited by BigIslandSevens; 08-16-04 at 09:06 PM.
08-16-04, 08:55 PM
#5
I have tokicos/eibachs with basically no bottoming out problems.
Explain bottoming out. Are the tires rubbing, frame scraping on the ground, hitting the bump stops, etc. What do you have for a wheel/tire setup?
I don't know what your problem is, but you definately have one.
Explain bottoming out. Are the tires rubbing, frame scraping on the ground, hitting the bump stops, etc. What do you have for a wheel/tire setup?
I don't know what your problem is, but you definately have one.
08-16-04, 10:00 PM
#7
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the tires are rubbing the inner fender wells. It may be a tire/wheel ratio problem, let me get the sizes tomorrow. I have some stock wheels I'll try out.
Also I was under the impression that when a spring is overtop of the shock absorber it was referred to as a strut. Also a strut is a type of shock absorber, ALL street cars have shock absorbers, whether they are in "shock" or "strut" form.
How does the FD design differ from a standard Macpherson strut?
Also I was under the impression that when a spring is overtop of the shock absorber it was referred to as a strut. Also a strut is a type of shock absorber, ALL street cars have shock absorbers, whether they are in "shock" or "strut" form.
How does the FD design differ from a standard Macpherson strut?
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08-16-04, 10:05 PM
#8
built my own engine
Originally Posted by BigIslandSevens
A little trick to see how far your shocks are traveling is to put a zip-tie or 2 around the shock shaft. Set the car down and go for a drive like you normally drive to get it to act up. Then come back, jack up the car and see what the travel distance is when the shock moves up. NOTE: You need to get a baseline measurement of the shock rod height to tell the difference in travel) If it IS bottoming the zip-tie would be buried at the top of the shaft rod. Otherwise you can measure to see what travel you are getting. If you have a lift to keep the suspension in loaded form you can put 2 ties on to see where the normal height and travel height differ.
08-16-04, 11:34 PM
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after more thought I'm thinking it HAS to be that the tires are the wrong size. The shocks are not blown. But it's not like I'm tucking the wheels either, there has to be a LOT of travel for them to scrape the way they do.
Well I'll try to stock wheels tomorrow.
Also thanks for clearing up the strut thing.
Well I'll try to stock wheels tomorrow.
Also thanks for clearing up the strut thing.
08-16-04, 11:34 PM
#13
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Sounds like they are worn out. My set on my CRX w/H&R's would bottom out bad but when you pushed down it didn't bounce up and down. After I removed them I pushed them down on the ground and one of them stayed compressed. I replaced them with KYB AGX's which are even stiffer and 4 settings instead of 5 (btw 5 is stiffest). Warranty is void on both sets if lowered more then 1.5" (mine was -2"), so expect the life to be shortened when lowered.
If your wheel/tire diameter is shoter then stock then you can bottom out and smack the sway bar mount and crush them. I had to replace mine (got mazdacomp version).
Oh yeah, aren't they Mcphereson struts and the cartidges called dampers?
If your wheel/tire diameter is shoter then stock then you can bottom out and smack the sway bar mount and crush them. I had to replace mine (got mazdacomp version).
Oh yeah, aren't they Mcphereson struts and the cartidges called dampers?
Last edited by GoRacer; 08-16-04 at 11:39 PM.
08-17-04, 09:26 AM
#16
Racing Rotary Since 1983
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the difference between struts and a double A arm FD suspension is profound.
as ISUposs correctly states, struts are a structual member of the suspension.
struts have been used primarily because they are the cheapest suspension design.
the problem with struts is that they fix the top of the suspension link to the car. if the car enters a right hand turn and leans, say 2 degrees to the outside left, that TIRE LEANS 2 DEGREES off camber from it's static position. that's 2 degrees positive camber when you need the negative camber.
the front outside tire is the most important tire entering a corner. it is crucially important for it to maintain a bit of negative camber.
the FDs unequal A arm suspension is pure racecar. on bump the upper shorter A arm scribes a smaller arc than the lower A arm pulling the tire in at the top and maintaining negative camber. ( the term is Negative Camber Gain).
struts/ double A arms.......... not a small distinction.
as to the actual thread itself...
it sounds like you are relatively new to your car... (you said you bought it used and the springs/shocks have around 10 K on them).
i would carefully check the springs to see if they really are Eibach Pro Kit. look for a part number PR 55 25.001 on each spring. i highly rate them for the FD. they are 350 pounds per inch in front and 255 in the rear. up 33% over stock.
you should not have any bottoming out problems w that rate. note 2 posters above that run them say they have no problems. i have not heard of Eibachs ever losing rate.
(there are numerous posts as to Racing Beat springs losing rate. perhaps that's all fixed. perhaps not. H&R springs lower the car too much--- you should ideally run 25 inches at each wheel well--- and may cause a tire wheel well clearance problem)
shocks... look on the body of each fo hydraulic fluid indicating a blown seal.
bushings... are a real maintainence item on the FD. certain bushings need to be replaced every 25-40,000 miles. other bushings probably never need replacement. most of the problem bushings are in the rear.
needing recurring replacement is the front bushing on the lower longitudinal link and 2 pillowball (spherical) bushings in the lower latitudinal link.
wheels... too much offset with your lowered ride height and you bottom the wheels against the wheel well/lips.
tire pressure... 30 front 28 rear measured cold maximum.
good luck,
howard coleman
as ISUposs correctly states, struts are a structual member of the suspension.
struts have been used primarily because they are the cheapest suspension design.
the problem with struts is that they fix the top of the suspension link to the car. if the car enters a right hand turn and leans, say 2 degrees to the outside left, that TIRE LEANS 2 DEGREES off camber from it's static position. that's 2 degrees positive camber when you need the negative camber.
the front outside tire is the most important tire entering a corner. it is crucially important for it to maintain a bit of negative camber.
the FDs unequal A arm suspension is pure racecar. on bump the upper shorter A arm scribes a smaller arc than the lower A arm pulling the tire in at the top and maintaining negative camber. ( the term is Negative Camber Gain).
struts/ double A arms.......... not a small distinction.
as to the actual thread itself...
it sounds like you are relatively new to your car... (you said you bought it used and the springs/shocks have around 10 K on them).
i would carefully check the springs to see if they really are Eibach Pro Kit. look for a part number PR 55 25.001 on each spring. i highly rate them for the FD. they are 350 pounds per inch in front and 255 in the rear. up 33% over stock.
you should not have any bottoming out problems w that rate. note 2 posters above that run them say they have no problems. i have not heard of Eibachs ever losing rate.
(there are numerous posts as to Racing Beat springs losing rate. perhaps that's all fixed. perhaps not. H&R springs lower the car too much--- you should ideally run 25 inches at each wheel well--- and may cause a tire wheel well clearance problem)
shocks... look on the body of each fo hydraulic fluid indicating a blown seal.
bushings... are a real maintainence item on the FD. certain bushings need to be replaced every 25-40,000 miles. other bushings probably never need replacement. most of the problem bushings are in the rear.
needing recurring replacement is the front bushing on the lower longitudinal link and 2 pillowball (spherical) bushings in the lower latitudinal link.
wheels... too much offset with your lowered ride height and you bottom the wheels against the wheel well/lips.
tire pressure... 30 front 28 rear measured cold maximum.
good luck,
howard coleman
08-17-04, 02:42 PM
#18
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another issue outside of your tire/wheel combo could be the front upper shock/strut mounts needing to be replaced. I installed the Tokico's with Racing Beat springs and stock wheels and tires, and I had fender rubbing issues while turning into inclined driveways.
Rotary Performance replaced both front upper shock mounts,and told me that they recommend replacing them every 60K, and definitely with new suspension pieces. Apparently, the new stiffer shock/spring combo accelerates the deterioration of these mounts. I think they wer $60 each, and it definately fixed my problem.
Good Luck!
Rotary Performance replaced both front upper shock mounts,and told me that they recommend replacing them every 60K, and definitely with new suspension pieces. Apparently, the new stiffer shock/spring combo accelerates the deterioration of these mounts. I think they wer $60 each, and it definately fixed my problem.
Good Luck!
08-17-04, 04:29 PM
#19
Rotary Freak
You may need stiffer, linear springs
I had 17"s 235/40/17's wheels with the Eibachs & Tokiko's with no fender liner rubbing. But as soon as I switched to 18"s w/ 235/40/18's I started getting fender rubbage. The Eibach's are too soft. I had to buy Linear GC/M2 Coil over springs w/ Tokiko's. The ride is WAY harsher that the cushy Eibach's. I miss them
Originally Posted by 4CN Air
the tires are rubbing the inner fender wells. It may be a tire/wheel ratio problem, let me get the sizes tomorrow. I have some stock wheels I'll try out.
Also I was under the impression that when a spring is overtop of the shock absorber it was referred to as a strut. Also a strut is a type of shock absorber, ALL street cars have shock absorbers, whether they are in "shock" or "strut" form.
How does the FD design differ from a standard Macpherson strut?
Also I was under the impression that when a spring is overtop of the shock absorber it was referred to as a strut. Also a strut is a type of shock absorber, ALL street cars have shock absorbers, whether they are in "shock" or "strut" form.
How does the FD design differ from a standard Macpherson strut?
08-17-04, 04:48 PM
#20
Racing Rotary Since 1983
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the object of springs is to provide a certain compliance between the bumps and the chassis not to keep your tires from rubbing. you shouldn't raise your spring rate to keep your tires from rubbing on the fender wells/lips.
proper wheel lateral offset, ride height and rolled fender lips and no problems.
the FD sets optimally at 25 inches at each fenderwell. if you run it lower you won't be able to dial out enough negative camber (remember negative camber gain on bump) to run approx 1.2 neg.
fix your problem by running proper offset and rolling your fender lips rather than running too much spring... max spring rate is about 550 fr and 425 rear. remember, stiffer springs and shocks do NOT change lateral weight transfer as they only change the rate at which it transfers... too much spring is slower not faster on a roadcourse.
i really like the Eibach rate at 350/255 for most applications. i run RS*R coil overs which have a rate of 432/378. (BTW, the Eibach rate is linear.)
howard coleman
proper wheel lateral offset, ride height and rolled fender lips and no problems.
the FD sets optimally at 25 inches at each fenderwell. if you run it lower you won't be able to dial out enough negative camber (remember negative camber gain on bump) to run approx 1.2 neg.
fix your problem by running proper offset and rolling your fender lips rather than running too much spring... max spring rate is about 550 fr and 425 rear. remember, stiffer springs and shocks do NOT change lateral weight transfer as they only change the rate at which it transfers... too much spring is slower not faster on a roadcourse.
i really like the Eibach rate at 350/255 for most applications. i run RS*R coil overs which have a rate of 432/378. (BTW, the Eibach rate is linear.)
howard coleman
08-18-04, 02:10 PM
#21
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Originally Posted by howard coleman
the difference between struts and a double A arm FD suspension is profound.
as ISUposs correctly states, struts are a structual member of the suspension.
struts have been used primarily because they are the cheapest suspension design.
the problem with struts is that they fix the top of the suspension link to the car. if the car enters a right hand turn and leans, say 2 degrees to the outside left, that TIRE LEANS 2 DEGREES off camber from it's static position. that's 2 degrees positive camber when you need the negative camber.
the front outside tire is the most important tire entering a corner. it is crucially important for it to maintain a bit of negative camber.
the FDs unequal A arm suspension is pure racecar. on bump the upper shorter A arm scribes a smaller arc than the lower A arm pulling the tire in at the top and maintaining negative camber. ( the term is Negative Camber Gain).
struts/ double A arms.......... not a small distinction.
as to the actual thread itself...
it sounds like you are relatively new to your car... (you said you bought it used and the springs/shocks have around 10 K on them).
i would carefully check the springs to see if they really are Eibach Pro Kit. look for a part number PR 55 25.001 on each spring. i highly rate them for the FD. they are 350 pounds per inch in front and 255 in the rear. up 33% over stock.
you should not have any bottoming out problems w that rate. note 2 posters above that run them say they have no problems. i have not heard of Eibachs ever losing rate.
(there are numerous posts as to Racing Beat springs losing rate. perhaps that's all fixed. perhaps not. H&R springs lower the car too much--- you should ideally run 25 inches at each wheel well--- and may cause a tire wheel well clearance problem)
shocks... look on the body of each fo hydraulic fluid indicating a blown seal.
bushings... are a real maintainence item on the FD. certain bushings need to be replaced every 25-40,000 miles. other bushings probably never need replacement. most of the problem bushings are in the rear.
needing recurring replacement is the front bushing on the lower longitudinal link and 2 pillowball (spherical) bushings in the lower latitudinal link.
wheels... too much offset with your lowered ride height and you bottom the wheels against the wheel well/lips.
tire pressure... 30 front 28 rear measured cold maximum.
good luck,
howard coleman
as ISUposs correctly states, struts are a structual member of the suspension.
struts have been used primarily because they are the cheapest suspension design.
the problem with struts is that they fix the top of the suspension link to the car. if the car enters a right hand turn and leans, say 2 degrees to the outside left, that TIRE LEANS 2 DEGREES off camber from it's static position. that's 2 degrees positive camber when you need the negative camber.
the front outside tire is the most important tire entering a corner. it is crucially important for it to maintain a bit of negative camber.
the FDs unequal A arm suspension is pure racecar. on bump the upper shorter A arm scribes a smaller arc than the lower A arm pulling the tire in at the top and maintaining negative camber. ( the term is Negative Camber Gain).
struts/ double A arms.......... not a small distinction.
as to the actual thread itself...
it sounds like you are relatively new to your car... (you said you bought it used and the springs/shocks have around 10 K on them).
i would carefully check the springs to see if they really are Eibach Pro Kit. look for a part number PR 55 25.001 on each spring. i highly rate them for the FD. they are 350 pounds per inch in front and 255 in the rear. up 33% over stock.
you should not have any bottoming out problems w that rate. note 2 posters above that run them say they have no problems. i have not heard of Eibachs ever losing rate.
(there are numerous posts as to Racing Beat springs losing rate. perhaps that's all fixed. perhaps not. H&R springs lower the car too much--- you should ideally run 25 inches at each wheel well--- and may cause a tire wheel well clearance problem)
shocks... look on the body of each fo hydraulic fluid indicating a blown seal.
bushings... are a real maintainence item on the FD. certain bushings need to be replaced every 25-40,000 miles. other bushings probably never need replacement. most of the problem bushings are in the rear.
needing recurring replacement is the front bushing on the lower longitudinal link and 2 pillowball (spherical) bushings in the lower latitudinal link.
wheels... too much offset with your lowered ride height and you bottom the wheels against the wheel well/lips.
tire pressure... 30 front 28 rear measured cold maximum.
good luck,
howard coleman
I'll try lowering the tire pressure a little, and check aroudn for bad bushings. What bushings could be so bad as to cause this rubbing? Also it seems to only occur in the front.
What is the front suspension travel in an FD? With my lowered setup I have about 2 inches before the tire rubs the inner fender, it travels these 2 inches easily.
08-19-04, 10:34 AM
#23
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Be careful with oversized tires rubbing the fender well. I've seen several cars rub through the wiring harness that runs through the driver side fender. It causes evil ignition problems.
08-19-04, 11:25 AM
#24
I had similar problems in my car running Tokicos and Eibachs both with stock wheels and with some aftermarket 17s. I would scrape the inner fender wall, the outer fender wall...the inner wall particularly at track events.
Somebody had suggested replacing the shock mounts in the front (about $60 bucks/piece from Mazdaformance), and I have yet to experience rubbing problems!
Somebody had suggested replacing the shock mounts in the front (about $60 bucks/piece from Mazdaformance), and I have yet to experience rubbing problems!
08-19-04, 12:02 PM
#25
The Ricer Eliminator
I ran this setup and never bottomed out. Now, dragging my exhaust across the top of a friggin' speed bump is another story..... 
My Eibachs sagged alot towards the end of their life, but they were fine for a long time.
Just giving some perspective.
My Eibachs sagged alot towards the end of their life, but they were fine for a long time.
Just giving some perspective.