puma

iTrader: (2)

Hi everyone, i have a question for the boost controller experts.

Let suppose i want to install a greddy Profec B boost controller. I know i will have to connect it at the pink line. I know i have to remove the red line. Here are my questions.

1- What will happen with the precontrol? Will i get only 10 PSI on the first turbo and then jump at the set point of the boost controler when the second one kicks in?

2- Can i remove the blue line to eliminate both solenoids on the UIM? I suppose that if i remove that and no 1 is true, i will only get 7 PSI on the primary...

3- If i put a manual controler (little valve or something like that) on the orange line, will the two first question be useless

4- If no 3 is working, can i remove the green line? What is the use of that thing other than bringing vaccum to the little tank for both solenoid?

I am pretty concerned with how the precontrol will act or what i should do. I like to remove everything i don't need anymore, makes more space to work on the car.

Anyone installed that kind of boost controller? I checked Rob Robinnette's web site and couldn't find the info i was looking for.

thanks guys, i like this forum so much.

puma

puma

iTrader: (2)

c'mon someone got to know this, mostly about the green line

please

es

You don't want to remove the green hose! That is the vacc source to the MOP Oil Injectors...

With the Profec installed the way you describe & assuming a healthy sequential system you should get the same boost level on both turbos (10-8-10 or 12-9-12 or 14-10-14...) If it's not perfect you can tune the PC bleed off amount by adjusting the PC actuator rod (undo the C-clip & screw the rod end to leave the PC door open a crack if #2 boost is lower than #1 boost. Close the door is #2 is higher than #1...)

You can't remove the Pre-Control solenoid unless you re-configure the car to run permanently parallel/non-seq. You can remove the Waste-Gate solenoid though.

Also, if your car is a '93 there should be a restrictor pill or orafice (somebody actually gave me **** for improperly calling it a "pill" before!) in the small pink hose that you want to remove. With that oravice gone you should be able to control your boost from 7 or 8PSI up to wherever you want...

Enjoy,
Eric.

puma

iTrader: (2)

oh man, thanks for telling me about the green line, i'll live it there. So only those running premix with no OMP can remove this right?

as far as the precontrol goes, you can not remove the blue line and control the orange line with a needle valve? Why is it different than the WG?

when you put a manual boost controler on the wastegate, you can eliminate the solenoid on the WG right?

maxcooper

Orifice! I call them pills, too, but I just thought I'd bust your ***** about the spelling.

-Max

es

Thanks Max...

Puma:
"So only those running premix with no OMP can remove this right? "
Pretty much. There's more to it than that, & you can get away without that hose, but it's debatable & that subject alone has spawned many a pages of posts...

"as far as the precontrol goes, you can not remove the blue line and control the orange line with a needle valve? Why is it different than the WG?"
The precontrol does function the same as the WG. By this I mean if you use a needle valve in place of the restrictor Pill & cap the vent line, the same amout of pressure will always be at the actuator & the flow rate is no longer a factor. The actuator will always open at 7PSI until you close the needle valve blocking all pressure. If you are using a needle valve you must maintain the vent line & actuator. Only now you can adjust the flow rate through the actuator, vent line, and solenoid. Less flow at the same vent duty cycle means lower pressure at the actuator. (I hope that makes sence...)

"when you put a manual boost controler on the wastegate, you can eliminate the solenoid on the WG right?"
This is correct because real boost controllers block pressure from the actuator until the desired boost is achived then opens/passes pressure to the actuator & duty controls the pressure. I believe the Profec B has an internal vent... (I could be wrong).

Hope that explains it for ya.
Eric.

Dannis

I finally picked up my Profec E-01 today! I love it. but I got a question.... the instruction said I have to install the pressure sensor hose into the fuel regulator with the three way fitting... where is the fuel regulator located?? any one have a picture of it? if anyone have a e-01, it'll be great for some install tips.

es

That is just the recomended spot for manifold pressure. Definitely NOT the easiest spot though as the FPR is on the back end of the secondary fuel rail & isn't visible without removal of the UIM, ACV, & many vacc hoses. (not to mention our cars have a solenoid that applies Atmospheric pressure to it during warm up conditions)

There is a nipple on top of the Upper Intake Manifold that is capped from the factory & is commonly used for Boost gauges. Take the pressure source from there & you'll be much happier...

Dannis

Thx es, I think that's where my boot gauge is hooked up to now. so I just cut the hose there and add the 3-way fitting on there right? sorry, I'm not too bright with turbo technology still

es

Correct. What I ended up doing what running just one hard clear plastic tube into the cabin (less likely to slit), then a "Y" with one end going to the boost gauge & the other to my Profec B head unit.

Less plumbing in the engine bay...
Eric.

puma

iTrader: (2)

Damn, you seem to know everything, i guess i will use you then

ok i was always wondering when the ECU would let the FP solenoid open so that the pressure regulator sees only atmospheric pressure, which mean that the fuel pressure would be around 40 instead of 32 when it is in vaccum and 50 when it is on boost.

you say it is for warm up? that means that it puts more fuel pressure when you start the car? is that why the car gets flooded when you only move it in the parking or is it because it changes the injectors duty cycle?

why is more ppressure necessary when you warm up the car?

man, this conversation is getting really interesting, lot of great info here.

puma

iTrader: (2)

ok, i ain't sure i get that, when i said MANUAL boost controller, in fact, i meant needle valve. So if i understand well what you said, a needle valve would still require the WG solenoid right? If you want to remove the WG solenoid, you need a valve that will vent the extra boost that goes to the actuator.

is that correct?

duboisr

I have a question ,if you do not have a controler ,only a line from the uim to the wastegate actuator you get 7lbs boost because of the 7 lbs spring. Why not put in a 12 lbs or 15lbs spring or what ever you want in the actuator. That way you do not need a high dollar controler.

es

Sorry for the delayed reply but I took the weekend off...

Puma, I wouldn't say I know everything. I'm not positive when the factory ECU switches the solenoid to the atmosphere. I've read posts about it doing that for warm starts but I've never tested it.

Pettit and other motor builders bypass the FPR solenoid & just connect the FPR vacc hose directly to the angled nipple at the bottom inside of the LIM. It can make the car a little lumpy when hot starting, but it'll clear up after lightly working the throttle.

"when i said MANUAL boost controller, in fact, i meant needle valve. So if i understand well what you said, a needle valve would still require the WG solenoid right? If you want to remove the WG solenoid, you need a valve that will vent the extra boost that goes to the actuator. Is that correct? "

Correct. The Hallman controllers work without the solenoid valve since they have an internal spring & check ball, but I've heard they don't control boost well & you could end up with slow response and/or creep at the top end...

"I have a question ,if you do not have a controler ,only a line from the uim to the wastegate actuator you get 7lbs boost because of the 7 lbs spring. Why not put in a 12 lbs or 15lbs spring or what ever you want in the actuator. That way you do not need a high dollar controler."

Duboisr, The factory wastegate actuator isn't the type of device that you could dis-assemble & rebuild. It's pressed together so you'd have to pry/bend the metal apart & I doubt if you would ever get the internal actuator diaphram to seal again. It's much easier to simply install a boost controller or needle valve; not to mention boost response is typically quite slow when running straight off of the WG spring vs: having a controller in line that blocks pressure from the spring until the desired boost is achieved...


Eric.

RonKMiller

Eric - a question on the Hallman boost controllers:

I see they have an "RX model" which has a ceramic ball and two different springs available. (as well as a remote vernier cable so that it is adjustable from the cockpit.)
I guess this addresses the slow response issue? (since the ceramic ball is lighter than steel...)

I'm peaking at 12 right now, but with cold weather I really have to keep my foot off the throttle or else.......I'm really leaning toward a manual controller.

Your thoughts on this.......thanks!

crazyrx7

Eric, you said that on a healthy turbo system you will be able to see 14 psi on the primary and then switching over to the secondary you will see 14 psi. That is the first time I have heard of someone getting 14 psi on the primary turbo. Correct me if I'm wrong but there was a guy on the forum trying to get 14 psi on the primary and the best he could do was 12.5 psi. He tried every possible way and and even tried shortening the pre control to lengthen the time that the primary has to spool up to give more boost on the primary. But to my knowledge I have never seen the 14-8-14 boost pattern.

R.K.

es

Give it a shot. If you have all the bolt ons & a high flow cat/midpipe the chances are you'll have boost creep up to 15PSI reguardless of what you use. Untill you enlarge the wastegate port...

Crazyrx7. My experience: I boosted up to 15PSI (never tried higher) on my primary turbo with nothing but an intake, downpipe, needle valve & PFS piggy Purple motor eater. Nice pattern of 15-11-15.

Then I installed my profec B, Power FC, MP catback and plugged the hose that runs up to the WG sol/valve. Same thing, 15-10-15. I kept the PC plubing the same. I replaced all the hoses soon after the PFC/Profec B & still had a nice 15-10-15. I replaced the turbos, 15-10-15...

Now, my car is the only one that I've tried all this on as most people just ditch everything & run the turbos parallel due to the complexity of the seq system...

My friend Dean claimed he could only get about 11.5 PSI on the pri turb but he used an HKS EVsomething. I don't know how he had that plumbed in either, & he has since installed a single turbo.

crazyrx7

I have tried everything to try to get the 15-10-15 pattern but it would not work. I have all the bolt ons and I just eventually gave up and went parallel. Even my buddy who has had his 94 rx7 since new and now has 45 000 km on it with all the bolt ons and even he can not get that pattern. Are you using the stock twins or are they modified?

R.K.

es

I did this with the stock twins, and with clipped twins. Same actuators both times. I also did this with a needle valve on one other local FD but it was a 12-9-12 pattern.

There is one other FD locally that is running good boost on the primary, but his is a later model car (built in restrictor orafices) & he now runs an AVC-R.

I no longer have twins. I have a bunch of parts strewn throughout my garage, room, & closet, but the twins have been sold. My final configuration will be a single & I hope to have it together next month.

crazyrx7

Do you think if I get new twins that I will be able to reproduce the 15-10-15 pattern that you had or should I just go single and not worry about it?

R.K.

es

What are you using for boost control? What have you done to the Pre-Control system?

My point is if you blocked the hose going to the WG actuator you will get open loop uncontrolled boost on both turbos (the primary turbo will shoot past 16 before 4K RPM. NOT THAT I RECOMMEND DOING THAT!) Therefore you can adjust your primary turbos boost level with the wastegate alone & the PC system should be left alone until the desired boost is achieved. Then you play with opening up the air flow to the PC actuator or adjusting the rod to raise the level that the transision dips to. You wouldn't want 15-8-15...

To me it almost sounds like you have a problem in the TC system.

By far the easiest way to go is single & you'll have a much higher power potential with lower underhood temps.

duboisr

Is a hallman like a dawes device, if so where do you get one. Thank you

crazyrx7

I have the blitz sbc-id boost controller. I put the boost controller in the wastegate line and capped off the red line on the diagram. What did you do according to the diagram posted above. Thanks.

R.K.

RonKMiller

Thanks Eric - I think I'll give it a try.

Duboisr : You can buy the Hallman variety at boostcontroller dot com.

es

R.K. That is exactly what I did. My Profec B head unit gets it's measured boost level from the UIM nipple. It's basically the same as a single turbo with an internal wastegate