Farkel Jr.

iTrader: (10)

I've been going crazy looking for a Black on Black Base or R1. I've looked all over the country, and they're just not out there.

There's a very local guy, but it's from some dealer that probably got it from an auction. Previous owner was a fireman. Carfax checks out, but the suspicious part is that it sat for 6 years with only 1k of movement..... Should this be something to be worried about?

The car runs fine, etc. and is really clean... but I'm just wondering why it sat without moving for so long.

The shrewd *** dealer wants 20k for it, I don't know if I should just do it or what

dhays

iTrader: (1)

It would have to be a VERY clean car in great shape for 20k. I've seen R1s and R2s listed here on the site that look pretty good.

scratchjunkie

what dealer is this at? im from the bay as well. im sure you can talk down the price at least 3-4k. maybe 5 if you pay cash.

FearNoPiston

iTrader: (17)

if it sat for that long with out a coolant flush its probably gonna need a rebuild soon.

Prophet7000

The car I bought only saw about 3k in 8 years and all is well 1.5 years later. As long as the car was taken care of during that time it's not a problem. If it literally just sat with out any maintenance though. . .

BillM

iTrader: (4)

20K is way too much. 15K is in the ball park.

moconnor

iTrader: (14)

I don't think you will get a dealer to sell you an FD with those miles for $15k in the Bay Area. $20k is a bit high - $18k is probably realistic, though the car should be fairly mint and do well in a compression test to pay that price. If it is mint and it is what you want, you may have to pay what the dealer is asking - given the rarity of clean FDs, you could wait a year or more to find something equivalent.

I'm surprised people still think that offering cash will bring the price down. The dealer will get their money within a few days no matter how you pay. In fact, most dealers would prefer the customer to finance with them because they can get a point or two on the borrowed amount.

BillM

iTrader: (4)

Here is a list of sales (S) or reserves not met (RNM) off ebay I have logged:

year model ext/int high bid mileage condition trans outcome date
1995 R2 red/bk $22,100 10900 Modded engine manual RNM 10/5/2007
1994 PEP BL/TAN $18,700 24000 original manual RNM 10/21/2007
1994 PEP BL/BK $13,100 24400 original manual RNM 10/25/2007
1993 PEP sl/red $20,600 14000 original manual RNM 10/31/2007
1994 PEP bk/tan $24,000 17600 original manual S 11/18/2007
1993 BASE red/tan $- 16000 original auto RNM 11/16/2007
1993 PEP bk/tan $19,351 15500 original manual S 12/2/2007
1994 PEP silver/black $19,500 34000 original manual S 12/21/2007 NJ
1995 PEP BL/BK $19,700 9000 original auto S 4/25/2008 CA
1994 PEP red/tan $20,100 15300 original manual RNM 4/25/2008 AL
1994 PEP BL/TAN $17,500 23900 original manual RNM 6/1/2008 NJ
1993 r1 red/bk $16,500 32300 original manual S 6/1/2008 MD
1993 PEP Silver/red $11,100 26900 original minor damage manual RNM 6/1/2008 AL

JConn2299

BillM, that's a very persuasive list. Thanks for posting it. Many on the Forum tend to over-value their cars. With gas prices passing $4 / gallon, and our cars getting crappy mileage, the market has gone soft for these cars.
If you're looking to buy one, and can live with the mileage, it's a good time to buy.
I think a number of 19 year olds who are scoping out these cars don't realize the costs involved, so it wouldn't surprise me if the sales turnover rate has also gone up. There also always has been a disparity between asking prices and the lower final sale prices. Many new to the market don't realize this and over-estimate the price at which they can snag a 3rd Generation RX-7.

moconnor

iTrader: (14)

These numbers are only persuasive if you misinterpret them. If you think the number $13k is somehow associated with the market value of a 1994 FD with 24k miles then you need to do some research.

The market value of these cars has been very stable over the past four years. Given the absurd maintenance, parts, repair and rebuild costs for these cars the price of gas is barely relevant. Few sensible people buy these cars as a daily driver - they are toys.

While many people do overprice their FDs (particularly in the Bay Area), if you want low miles (~50K miles) and mint condition, be prepared to pay around $18k. You can get high mileage cars for a few $k less, but this never made much sense to me.

BillM

iTrader: (4)

I'd agree, it doesnt make sense to save 2-3K up front and then have to spend at least that on making a car right. The interior parts are insanely expensive. Note that most of the cars I list were not sold (RNM). Some were relisted others I never saw again.

Ive seen low mileage cars (under 20K miles) sell for 18-25,000. Depends on location, color combo, at vs mt, and options.

Personally I got mine with 32K on it for 18,000. The car looked perfect. That said after having it for a while I probably spent $500 on minor stuff to make it really perfect.

JConn2299

That is simply not true. My '95 is in excellent conditon. It has under 40k miles.I've owned it since new. Every few months, just for ha-ha's, I track the price on NADA and KBB. The FD shows what most other cars do: a consistent pattern of depreciation. Maybe not as much as a Ford Focus or a Chevy Malibu, but it declines invalue.

Some people on this forum seem to take it personally when their precious gem depreciates. Get used to it gentlemen, it's a fact of life. I've even seen some posts on this forum in which people try to talk up the value. They'll say things such as "If we don't sell cheap we can raise the value of cars." Nothing could be more silly. Markets work, most cars depreciate, life goes on.

gracer7-rx7

iTrader: (16)

Don't be in a hurry to find an FD. It takes time to find the right one.

Here is another source to look: http://www.speedforsale.com/

I think Goodfella had a line on a decent black FD but it is in NJ.

JConn2299

Thanks for making my case. 3 years ago that price would have been $20k.

moconnor

iTrader: (14)

No it wouldn't. I bought my 44k mile mint black on black R1 in the Bay Area four years ago for $16.4k. For $20k at the time I would have expected a mint car with 20k miles or less (and almost bought one at that price).

The price of clean relatively low miles FDs has remained very stable since then. Tired high mileage cars may have dropped a grand or two since then (and are still overpriced IMHO).

JConn2299

Simply not true. Consult any price guide over time and you will see depreciation.

And I've been around this block before. When people lose this argument they start claiming the professional price guids are inaccurate. They try to introduce claims of outlier examples. Auto sales professional are very serious about their business, even vicious at times. They are not in it to lose money. They know their markets. They live and die by NADA. And the price guides show that even cherry examples of FD's, like mine, have declined in value over the years.
I don't take it personally. I don't cry myself to sleep at night. I accept it as a fact of life and enjoy the car.

JConn2299

Then you haven't been paying attention to all the recent posts about gas mileage in FD's.

If you've been on this Forum as long as I have you've noticed a distinct change in the demographic profile of the people who own these cars. When they were new, people like me bought them. For people like me, the price of gas can be something of a marginal expense.

Now, I see a lot of owners in their late teens and early 20's owning these cars. If you don't think $4-$5 /gallon gas in a car that is lucky to get 16 mpg is a consideration for a 19 year old, then you just aren't paying attention.

fd0

iTrader: (8)

Actually, dealers live and die by NADA prices ONLY when they do trade-ins. They use Kelly Blue Book when they're selling their cars. They also use their own values for auction listed cards, which is WAY lower than NADA.

I've seen this tactic used over and over when purchasing and selling cars. I usually force them to use NADA or Edmunds.

In my opinion, our cars are worth less because the people who decide to buy it don't know what they're getting themselves into. They eventually have to sell it as a non-running or a "project" car and have to sell for less (I learned this lesson the first time).

It's definitely an awesome looking car as well as a really good performing car; still. They see the prices of our cars close to new Civic's and they think to themselves, which one would be cooler in high school or college, the Civic or the 3rd gen RX-7?

I think most people who consider this car as an auxillary car won't care about prices because it's most likely going to stay with them.

If you buy cars as an investment, good luck with that because you can't predict the future of prices. You can only guess with some data you have but you can't predict if it'll eventually become a collector's car.

I hope it does but even it doesn't, I don't care 'cause it's one of the coolest cars around and I love driving it whenever I do.

Here's to the nimble, powerful, stylish, awe-inspiring, polluting, I love to stare at and drive, boost not working sometimes, 5th gear grinding, engine catching on fire car we love so much and hate!

maxg765

That's funny, car number 4
"1993 PEP sl/red $20,600 14000 original manual RNM 10/31/2007"
is now my car. I bought it after the auction. The reserve was met privately. I am flying down to pick it up next week on Tuesday.

From what I have seen, if you are looking to buy a low mile certified and compression tested FD you will pay 20K+. 18K if your lucky. I had car #4 transported and tested by KDROTARY and it passed all tests with flying colors. Including having it checked for the Mazda blue seal tape put on at the factory to alert if the miles have been tampered with. The car is a 14K mile car and it shows as such cosmetically and mechanically. So back to pricing and this is just my take on it.

Assuming the car is accident free, legit, original miles, and the engine has been tested and passes excellent compression etc.... Regardless of model below are MY predictions. 95's do pull more $$ or sell faster... I have also noticed recently that 100% low mile stock cars are now selling fast and for higher premiums since they are becoming harder to find as time passes, again as long as they can be certified and tested to be in excellent order below are my predictions.

Crazy heavily modified super cars could reach $30K

Less than 20K miles and in stock form with no rebuild & none required $21K and $25K, but closer $25K

Less than 20K miles and tastefully modified for reliability or with rebuild. $20K

20K miles to 50K miles $18K to $21K

50K miles to 90K miles $15 to $18K

90K miles to 120K miles $13K to $18K but usually $15K

120K miles to 150K miles $11K to $15K



Now if the car is rough or needing some work or a rebuild I have seen prices ranging from $6 to $10K


Again, I have no facts to base this on its just my feeling and what I have seen sell etc...Still funny that my car # 4 is posted up there.

Max

moconnor

iTrader: (14)

I actually have a file that I have kept (spottily) with KBB values for my car. I entered a 1993 manual with 50k miles and got the following numbers for 'excellent' condition on KBB:

August 2004: $16k. This is when I bought the car.
March 2006: $14.760.
June 2008: $16k.

I'm actually a great believer in blue book values - up to a point. The numbers can be very inaccurate for low mileage cars. For example the KBB of an 'excellent' 1993 with 50k miles is exactly the same as the KBB of a car with 5 miles! I don't think any logical person is going to assume that that makes any sense. Clean cars with low miles sell for a premium over blue book. The immediately preceding post is pretty accurate for low mileage cars IMHO - except I do not see any price premium for cars without a rebuild; these cars don't have matching engine VINs. I thinks the prices are too high for higher mileage cars - blue book works here.

wholelottahustle

Hey Farkel,

I'm in the Bay Area and have seen the ad for the R1 you are looking at. I haven't looked at the car in person, but one thing kinda caught my eye on the carfax. It says at the top the car is located at VIP imports. You may want to call that dealership to get more info on the car, I never did it because the price is a bit high for me. Also, I did talk to the dealer and he did tell me the clutch was being replaced.

http://www.carfax.com/cfm/ccc_Displa...FD3319P0207159

JConn2299

LOL! Who are you tring to kid? I went to KBB and gave your car a nice Mill Valley zip code. The private party sale price for that car is $13,635.

There are several points to be made here:

1. If you're not trying to outright decieve this forum, then you've made a mistake,
either by unconsciously going back and forth between private party and retail prices, or similarly varying the condition of the car. (Very few 2nd owner cars with 50k miles are truly in excellent condition. My original owner 38k car with not a ding or a scratch in it may fall into that category. May.)

2. I've tracked my car for years longer than you have owned yours on both NADA and KBB (all 3 categories, whlse. pp. retial) Over the past 4 years it has depreciated at the rate of just under $1,000 per year.
(I have both controlled for mileage and put in actual mileage each time. Within a certain range mileage is a very limited factor. Condition is more important.)

3. You're not seriously going to contend that your car has appreciated while mine has depreciated, are you? (I've lived in SF and Sausalito for a number of years and am very familiar with the Bay Area. I get back there often. While Bay Area prices may be slightly higher than elsewhere it doesn't mean the FD has suddenly become immune to depreciation.

4. Your argument is inconsistent. At first you claimed FD prices were "stable." Now you're claiming they're actually appreciating. You don't have your story straight.

5. To people who claim the price guides are wrong, I ask "How would you know?"
You never see the actual sale prices of most all cars. All you see are asking prices.
The one exception to this is e-bay. What the e-bay prices posted above show me is that there are a number of cars that are not selling at their asking prices. Given that, no one can claim that the market is strong for FD's.

JConn2299

That makes my point. All people see are ASKING prices and they think they know the market. Then they see a price guide with lower average prices and they think the guides are wrong. Well, how would they know? They don't see the actual sale prices.

What we're really dealing with here is the emotional bias of FD owners who have a vested interest in seeing their precious possession validated in terms of dollars.
This is something real estate brokers deal with all the time....the house owner who has to be made to agree to a realistic asking price for their sentimentally attached hearth & home. But markets can be cold, unfeeling, and sometimes cruel things, as you may have noticed by the For Sale signs in your neighborhood.

JM1FD

iTrader: (1)

You just said it....they know their MARKETS. Books are not markets...auctions (wholesale or otherwise) are. Any UCM or wholesaler worth his salt looks at what's going on at auction, not in the book.

kojihan

20k.... wow