Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

LOL! Thanks Kyle! But I was wondering about the process.. ie does it need to be cool at certain rate or Can you just drop it in the liq. N2.

Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

Most places say their process is cooled in a timed manner (usually around 1 degree per minute); as well as the part going through the process multiple times. One place I talked with said their process would take 7-10 days (depending on their load) so no its not as simple as drop the part into a big cooler and pull it back out.

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

Your right..
after googling..

Tom93R1

iTrader: (2)

Does anybody have any test results that show the benefit of cryo treating? I know it sounds good in theory but how much benefit is there in practice?

EricRyan

iTrader: (4)

Hmm, I learn something new every day.

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

I also would like to know.. Because I wouldn't cryo stock seals when you could already get harder seals from somewhere else.. it kind of beats the purpose of using stock seals..

KINETIK_FD3S

having them cryoed for only for only $25 sounds good to me.

Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

Yep. That is interesting as people complain about the RA seals being so hard on the housing. I would guess that a cryo treated OEM seal wouldn't be any different in that respect (unless it too was cryo treated).

iceblue

You do not understand what cryo treating does.

It does not make the metal harder! Harder seals is a huge NO NO all that happens is internal abnormal wear. Mazda designed the internals to wear perfectly together. There is a reson Mazda has been doing it for 60 years.

I prefer to treat motors in a uniformed manner. Housings irons and seals.

Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

Cryo does alter the properties of the metal. What that does as far as wear is concerned it what he is asking.

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

You know, I don't really understand.. so, why don't you explain to me?? because I just responded to what you stated..

iceblue

No need for such bitterness towards me. I've done nothing but shared knowledge with you.

Basic - The end result of this conversion is extremely strong and durable metal. Durability (resistance to wear and fatigue) is around 100% (that’s double), the typical increase in strength is 30% to 50%.

This does not mean the metal becomes HARDER. It means the metal becomes more durable and stronger as stated.

Advanced cryogenics uses a few more processes. Unfortunately the site of the company I use is down. Same principle with a greater rate of durability.

Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

I believe that's where the problem lies. Now, I'm no Materials Engineer and I've never taken any classes that remotely deals with that stuff.

People will naturally equate "stronger" with "harder". So, the real question which maybe some of the people on the forum can answer is what equates to the wear characteristics between metals verses their strength?

i.e. if changing the properties of the OEM seals to something around what the RA seal strength is but doesn't wear on the housings the same, then what denotes what the wear is going to be?

Or the bigger question, for Ice: Have you run Cryo treated seals without treating the housings and examined the wear?

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

I'm also not in the field of material engineering.. but when someone says it wears less on a metallic substance because it changes structural properties, I think of that metal becoming harder... Also, this whole cryo process seems very vague...

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

here is a scientific paper about cryo treatment..

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

more pages..

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

last two

iceblue

I understand that confusion, that is why I posted what I did 2 posts ago. Frankly the confusion is to be expected. You should think for 5 min how I feel trying to explain to customers on the phone.

But yes I do run them regularly with only seal treatment. I have also tested them/ How? With a press. Sandwich the seals together and push down. They both flex together evenly until 150lb lateral force the OEM seal in most cases begins to crack. Where the cryod seal did not and allowed more flex until about 225lbs if it did not give all the way down to the bench.

I understand this is lateral force and not seen much in the motor. But I have no real way of testing the force on the horizontal edge.

What you are dealing with is a more organized piece of metal. Meanings its molecular atom structure is much stronger. Like a diamond. A demand is strong and wel,l a diamond. But one with large coal deposits is still just as strong as a diamond without but has more fatigue rating to crack.

Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

That's all well and great, but it doesn't answer the question about the wearing. I understand that you are dealing with more tightly bound material, hence the strength (and other thermal enhancements). However, I find it hard to believe that it doesn't have an effect on wearing a stock housing similar to using the stronger RA seals. That's what herblenny's original question was about.


It would also be interesting to have the same test with the RA seals, but that's kind of besides the point at the moment.

iceblue

The housing wear on tear down appears to be the same as OEM. The wear is due from the hardness of the seal. If the seal is not harder is does not have the ability to dig into the chrome. The RA seals are not only stronger the metal is greatly harder and more brittle.

If there is more wear there has not been enough for me to determine the difference as noticeable or abnormal. However I do prefer to treat the housings with them. More of a peace of mind. I haven’t had a combination motor myself pulled back down they still running. Dave has and he states they work great and show much less wear.

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

Few more info about the history and the process..

http://www.300below.com/site/gearsolutions.html

After reading this, I realized I have all the means to do small items and do at work.. I have Deep freezer -80 and liq. N2 containers where I could actually use the vapor to cool the parts and eventually into the N2.

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

Hmm.. I think I'm beginning to understand where you are coming from..

I might give this a try since I now realized I have all the means to carry this out at my lab.

iceblue

I would love to hear how it goes for you.

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

Only concern I have now is bring the item back to room temp and water condensation it might form and its affect.. I might have to go back thru -80C to -20C freezer than back to 4C refrig to Room temp.

Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

Sounds good but I still need to hear the Materials Engineering guys chime in with a little more scientific data (and I know we have a few of them on the forum). I do live in Missouri which is the "Show Me" state.