Another V-mount completed
06-18-04, 09:58 AM
#51
Avoid Fuego Racing
Why would there be any heat soak? You understand that in the Vmount, the fans are mounted to the UNDERSIDE of the radiator. Hence airflow goes through the radiator and out the bottom. So heat would be pulled away from the IC.
06-18-04, 10:13 AM
#52
Lives on the Forum
Damn, Kevin. I miss the drama 
Originally posted by Kevin T. Wyum
Heat Soak, air rising from the radiator and heating different parts of the IC while the car is stationary. Both SMIC's and V-mounts will have this problem. Each will have a little variation on the other but in general the same effect. FMIC's will have very minimal issues with heat soak other than tubing etc. Radiator exhaust air blowing on the IC? Almost all SMIC's use fiberglass ducts, it doesn't conduct heat terribly well.
Intercoolers are not designed with stationary performance in mind, it's really odd to be worried about that unless you're a die-hard drag racer really worried about the first 300 feet.
Vented Hoods, the stock flow system is designed so that air exits the engine bay by flowing over the turbo's and exhaust as well as the spark plug side. This was "supposed to" provide cooling for the turbo's and engine in general. It doesn't seem to have worked too terribly well as the engine compartment stays far too hot. I can't say if there's a downside to not having that air flow around the turbos anymore but a vented hood sure seems to cool everything else off enough to make up for it and more. Will a V-mount work without a vented hood? Sure, just like an SMIC will. The only real difference is the angle the air exits at. With a V-mount it needs to make a more substantial turn to reach the exit point than a SMIC but the real difference to performance because of that is probably so small that it's not able to be measured. With a vented hood both SMIC's and VMIC's should have much improved performance in cooling, with the same immeasurable difference due to angle of air exit, but this time for the SMIC. FMIC's shouldn't see any significant improvement other than the overall system improvement of a cooler engine bay and associated parts from the heat release.
Hope that was neutral enough to not rub anyone the wrong way.
Kevin T. Wyum
word selection edit
Heat Soak, air rising from the radiator and heating different parts of the IC while the car is stationary. Both SMIC's and V-mounts will have this problem. Each will have a little variation on the other but in general the same effect. FMIC's will have very minimal issues with heat soak other than tubing etc. Radiator exhaust air blowing on the IC? Almost all SMIC's use fiberglass ducts, it doesn't conduct heat terribly well.
Intercoolers are not designed with stationary performance in mind, it's really odd to be worried about that unless you're a die-hard drag racer really worried about the first 300 feet.
Vented Hoods, the stock flow system is designed so that air exits the engine bay by flowing over the turbo's and exhaust as well as the spark plug side. This was "supposed to" provide cooling for the turbo's and engine in general. It doesn't seem to have worked too terribly well as the engine compartment stays far too hot. I can't say if there's a downside to not having that air flow around the turbos anymore but a vented hood sure seems to cool everything else off enough to make up for it and more. Will a V-mount work without a vented hood? Sure, just like an SMIC will. The only real difference is the angle the air exits at. With a V-mount it needs to make a more substantial turn to reach the exit point than a SMIC but the real difference to performance because of that is probably so small that it's not able to be measured. With a vented hood both SMIC's and VMIC's should have much improved performance in cooling, with the same immeasurable difference due to angle of air exit, but this time for the SMIC. FMIC's shouldn't see any significant improvement other than the overall system improvement of a cooler engine bay and associated parts from the heat release.
Hope that was neutral enough to not rub anyone the wrong way.
Kevin T. Wyum
word selection edit
06-18-04, 10:19 AM
#53
There'll be SOME heatsoak because its under the hood, where the heat is. Things don't need to be in the direct path of the radiator exit to heat soak, because thats hardly the only source of heat.
I'm interested to see more testing of the VMIC setup... some points to ponder:
The reason you're likely to get better charge cooling with the VMIC is that he face of the IC has far more exposure to fresh air than SMIC's do with the 1x11" or so duct opening... but all of the air is still coming throughthe same nose opening, so if more of that given amount of incoming air gets to, and goes through the IC, that means less is going through the radiator. Air will also follow the path of least resistance, so if it has an easier time going through the IC than it does through the AC condenser and rad. or vice versa, then thats where its going to go... The same can be applied to the vented hood debate. It doesn't matter too much which angle the IC or radiator are pointed, the air still has to come horizontally in through the front of the car, go through the heat exchangers, turn 90 degrees, and make its way out the hood vent (which it will because thats where the least resistance is). Heat rises, so it'll still vent out of the hood while stationary just the same way.
I'm not saying it doesn't work or even work well, but i'd like to see a few people run these at the track, and see how their water temps compare to the SMIC they likely ran before. Street temps, regulated by the fans and t-stat don't tell you squat... that why there have been plenty of folks who put in an FMIC and say "gee, my water temps are virtually the same around town as before", then go out to the track and can't finish a session without hitting the danger zone. I want to see what VMICs do at max demand. The splitter that was mentioned before might be needed to help regulatye air flow... i know the HKS version that Cossie seems to run successfully on track uses one.
I'm interested to see more testing of the VMIC setup... some points to ponder:
The reason you're likely to get better charge cooling with the VMIC is that he face of the IC has far more exposure to fresh air than SMIC's do with the 1x11" or so duct opening... but all of the air is still coming throughthe same nose opening, so if more of that given amount of incoming air gets to, and goes through the IC, that means less is going through the radiator. Air will also follow the path of least resistance, so if it has an easier time going through the IC than it does through the AC condenser and rad. or vice versa, then thats where its going to go... The same can be applied to the vented hood debate. It doesn't matter too much which angle the IC or radiator are pointed, the air still has to come horizontally in through the front of the car, go through the heat exchangers, turn 90 degrees, and make its way out the hood vent (which it will because thats where the least resistance is). Heat rises, so it'll still vent out of the hood while stationary just the same way.
I'm not saying it doesn't work or even work well, but i'd like to see a few people run these at the track, and see how their water temps compare to the SMIC they likely ran before. Street temps, regulated by the fans and t-stat don't tell you squat... that why there have been plenty of folks who put in an FMIC and say "gee, my water temps are virtually the same around town as before", then go out to the track and can't finish a session without hitting the danger zone. I want to see what VMICs do at max demand. The splitter that was mentioned before might be needed to help regulatye air flow... i know the HKS version that Cossie seems to run successfully on track uses one.
Last edited by ptrhahn; 06-18-04 at 10:24 AM.
06-18-04, 10:25 AM
#54
Lives on the Forum
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: San Lorenzo, California
Posts: 14,716
Likes: 0
Received 8 Likes
on
8 Posts
ptrhahn:
I ran at Buttonwillow the same event as Cossie, I have the PFS SMIC+Fluidyne, he has the HKS v-mount/Koyo. His water temps never went above 87C (this was a 55F day or so), mine never went above 94-95C as I recall. He also has a single turbo rather than the twins.
Do a search under Cossie, I know he listed other temps and comparisons to his smic.
I ran at Buttonwillow the same event as Cossie, I have the PFS SMIC+Fluidyne, he has the HKS v-mount/Koyo. His water temps never went above 87C (this was a 55F day or so), mine never went above 94-95C as I recall. He also has a single turbo rather than the twins.
Do a search under Cossie, I know he listed other temps and comparisons to his smic.
06-18-04, 10:58 AM
#55
Rynberg,
I've read that post by Cossie... and I think its a tough comparo, because as far as i could tell, he has no A/C, a single turbo, and that splitter. My whole thought was that the splitter might be key to "forcing" air to go through the rad rather than the IC with a VMIC. IC fins are generally not as dense, and if you add the A/C condenser in front of the rad.... the Radiator path offers much more resistance to flow.
I've read that post by Cossie... and I think its a tough comparo, because as far as i could tell, he has no A/C, a single turbo, and that splitter. My whole thought was that the splitter might be key to "forcing" air to go through the rad rather than the IC with a VMIC. IC fins are generally not as dense, and if you add the A/C condenser in front of the rad.... the Radiator path offers much more resistance to flow.
Originally posted by rynberg
ptrhahn:
I ran at Buttonwillow the same event as Cossie, I have the PFS SMIC+Fluidyne, he has the HKS v-mount/Koyo. His water temps never went above 87C (this was a 55F day or so), mine never went above 94-95C as I recall. He also has a single turbo rather than the twins.
Do a search under Cossie, I know he listed other temps and comparisons to his smic.
ptrhahn:
I ran at Buttonwillow the same event as Cossie, I have the PFS SMIC+Fluidyne, he has the HKS v-mount/Koyo. His water temps never went above 87C (this was a 55F day or so), mine never went above 94-95C as I recall. He also has a single turbo rather than the twins.
Do a search under Cossie, I know he listed other temps and comparisons to his smic.
06-18-04, 11:39 AM
#56
Lives on the Forum
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: San Lorenzo, California
Posts: 14,716
Likes: 0
Received 8 Likes
on
8 Posts
Originally posted by ptrhahn
Rynberg,
I've read that post by Cossie... and I think its a tough comparo, because as far as i could tell, he has no A/C, a single turbo, and that splitter. My whole thought was that the splitter might be key to "forcing" air to go through the rad rather than the IC with a VMIC. IC fins are generally not as dense, and if you add the A/C condenser in front of the rad.... the Radiator path offers much more resistance to flow.
Rynberg,
I've read that post by Cossie... and I think its a tough comparo, because as far as i could tell, he has no A/C, a single turbo, and that splitter. My whole thought was that the splitter might be key to "forcing" air to go through the rad rather than the IC with a VMIC. IC fins are generally not as dense, and if you add the A/C condenser in front of the rad.... the Radiator path offers much more resistance to flow.
06-18-04, 12:15 PM
#57
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Charlotte
Posts: 552
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
the V mount looks sexy and everything but I seriously doubt there is any big advantage in efficiency over the stock mount of the same core size, going down the road at 60 mph
now, at low speed with a vented hood, I might be inclined to believe there is a significant advantage, depending on the duct design....plus you can fit a larger core in the same cramped space with a V mount
but for the street, anything like the M2 medium or larger will get the job done, I don't care if you mount the thing on the roof....as long as you are moving.....the difference in hp just isn't going to be that great
maybe we need to talk refrigerated air dryers for FDs that operate in 95 F heat and 95% humidity....like Charlotte right now
now, at low speed with a vented hood, I might be inclined to believe there is a significant advantage, depending on the duct design....plus you can fit a larger core in the same cramped space with a V mount
but for the street, anything like the M2 medium or larger will get the job done, I don't care if you mount the thing on the roof....as long as you are moving.....the difference in hp just isn't going to be that great
maybe we need to talk refrigerated air dryers for FDs that operate in 95 F heat and 95% humidity....like Charlotte right now
06-18-04, 12:28 PM
#58
Lives on the Forum
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: San Lorenzo, California
Posts: 14,716
Likes: 0
Received 8 Likes
on
8 Posts
IMO, almost ANY IC will work for street driving. The point of running a setup like this is for track use, IMO. If I never tracked the car, I sure as hell wouldn't be spending that kind of money on an IC setup.
06-18-04, 01:43 PM
#59
I'll agree that at first glance, you've got to wonder why Mazda didn't do it this way (VMIC) in the first place... but i also know that doing something as seemingly small as sealing some of the small gaps around the radiator can make a significant difference in cooling capacity on track... so totally mixing up the equation seems like it could yeild unexpected results. I think an adjustable splitter would be the way to go... but i wouldn't want to find out $2500 later that i've got a cooling problem the way so many people have when they mount a front mount, proclaim it fine based on street temps, then can't finish a 20 min. track session at full boost.
Originally posted by rynberg
Very good points. I'll concede that we still don't have reliable track temps from someone with the RE v-mount (and twins with a/c).
Very good points. I'll concede that we still don't have reliable track temps from someone with the RE v-mount (and twins with a/c).
06-18-04, 01:55 PM
#60
Lives on the Forum
Originally posted by ptrhahn
i've got a cooling problem the way so many people have when they mount a front mount, proclaim it fine based on street temps, then can't finish a 20 min. track session at full boost.
i've got a cooling problem the way so many people have when they mount a front mount, proclaim it fine based on street temps, then can't finish a 20 min. track session at full boost.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
The1Sun
1st Generation Specific (1979-1985)
0
09-07-15 10:21 PM