Almost ready to go in!!!! Have questions
08-08-06, 09:56 AM
#53
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Sad but true, the engine has to come out again. After countless hours trying figure out why the car would not pass smog or idle right I took it to the professionals at Tripoint Engineering to diagnose and repair my smog woes. It took them five weeks of intensive diagnostics to come to the conclusion the engine re-builder (Larry Scott [never heard of him]) built the engine backwards.
I purchased this engine freshly rebuilt by way of a totaled car two years ago, and as you can see I took my time to clean it up for the installation into my car.
During the cleaning I noticed the housings were double stamped (FF over FR), but I thought that must have been a production anomaly and I never questioned the functionality. After all, the previous car ran fine enough to fish tail into a concrete drainage so I never doubted the engine ran let alone passed smog.
Apparently there are passages unique to the front and rear housings and Tripoint says because they are backwards (front housing in rear, rear housing in front) there is un-metered air (AKA exhaust gas) being plumbed into the emissions system. I have to admit I cannot visualize how this affects the emissions, nor the path the air is going, but I am going to take their word for it and completely disassemble the motor.
This is a very frustrating time for me. I am out of money, and out of time. I am going to have to do the rest of the work myself.
The worst part is to fork out the $1400 for all the labor Tripoint put into it. I know they probably have more than that into it, but it still hurts knowing I am now ten steps backwards from where I started and now out all the money. I guess it could have been worst, at one point of the diagnostics Tripoint wanted to replace my wire harness with a new one for $2500 in change. The mechanic ruled that out thankfully.
I want to cry…
I purchased this engine freshly rebuilt by way of a totaled car two years ago, and as you can see I took my time to clean it up for the installation into my car.
During the cleaning I noticed the housings were double stamped (FF over FR), but I thought that must have been a production anomaly and I never questioned the functionality. After all, the previous car ran fine enough to fish tail into a concrete drainage so I never doubted the engine ran let alone passed smog.
Apparently there are passages unique to the front and rear housings and Tripoint says because they are backwards (front housing in rear, rear housing in front) there is un-metered air (AKA exhaust gas) being plumbed into the emissions system. I have to admit I cannot visualize how this affects the emissions, nor the path the air is going, but I am going to take their word for it and completely disassemble the motor.
This is a very frustrating time for me. I am out of money, and out of time. I am going to have to do the rest of the work myself.
The worst part is to fork out the $1400 for all the labor Tripoint put into it. I know they probably have more than that into it, but it still hurts knowing I am now ten steps backwards from where I started and now out all the money. I guess it could have been worst, at one point of the diagnostics Tripoint wanted to replace my wire harness with a new one for $2500 in change. The mechanic ruled that out thankfully.
I want to cry…
08-08-06, 06:55 PM
#55
REPU Wanter
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Stick to it! I've been down a similar road. I bought a manual engine and installed most of it to only find out the automatic starter won't fit on a manual engine. So it had to come out and I had to rebuild my original automatic engine. A very disappointing time for me. You may think I'm able to afford it, but it wasn't the case. I am still paying on the first engine. Stay with it the end result will be more than satisfying.
Terry7
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08-08-06, 09:54 PM
#56
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Im sorry to hear this. The care you put into your engine is obvious and to have something like this happen is terrible.
Good luck with the rebuild, I assume all you have to is swap the housing and not mess with all the seals?
Good luck with the rebuild, I assume all you have to is swap the housing and not mess with all the seals?
08-09-06, 09:39 AM
#57
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Tripoint made a good suggestion to follow the seals with the housings since they are already broken-in. So, I will be messing with the seals as well as inspecting the internals.
I still have one last hope before pulling the motor. Tripoint found that I had reversed the ACV vacuum lines earlier in their diagnostics, which they repaired and then sent the car to be tested at a smog station. The car failed, but they didn't say by how much. (My previous smog attempts were off the charts, pegging HC, and CO.)
When I picked up my car last night Mark let me know that my precat was gutted (I knew because I did it) and that my Main Cat's Brick was broken. Whoa!!!
Ok, besides the cost of a replacement cat (which I have a spare) this is shocking news. What if tripoint's smog results were improved/borderline failing? Would the replacement of a functioning cat get me past smog?
So, I am waiting to get the results back today on the Tripoint smog, compare them to my smog, and make a decision to either continue with removing the motor, or put it back together with some voodoo gas and a prayer. This is a long shot since I am sure the guys at tripoint are smart enough to know when something is close or way off, but for now it is a glimmer of hope that I am hanging onto right now.
I still have one last hope before pulling the motor. Tripoint found that I had reversed the ACV vacuum lines earlier in their diagnostics, which they repaired and then sent the car to be tested at a smog station. The car failed, but they didn't say by how much. (My previous smog attempts were off the charts, pegging HC, and CO.)
When I picked up my car last night Mark let me know that my precat was gutted (I knew because I did it) and that my Main Cat's Brick was broken. Whoa!!!
Ok, besides the cost of a replacement cat (which I have a spare) this is shocking news. What if tripoint's smog results were improved/borderline failing? Would the replacement of a functioning cat get me past smog?
So, I am waiting to get the results back today on the Tripoint smog, compare them to my smog, and make a decision to either continue with removing the motor, or put it back together with some voodoo gas and a prayer. This is a long shot since I am sure the guys at tripoint are smart enough to know when something is close or way off, but for now it is a glimmer of hope that I am hanging onto right now.
08-09-06, 12:43 PM
#58
RAWR!!!
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There is also the option of finding a shop that will pass your car at extra cost. It would give you two years to save up and tear down the motor at a later date instead of rushing things and trying to get it to pass now.
08-09-06, 04:18 PM
#60
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Originally Posted by scotty305
I've seen someone from these boards who installed a later-model engine in his car, and posted photos too. He goes by the user name 'puma' , but I don't think he posts much anymore.
-s-
-s-
"puma" aka Alex is a guy from my club who used to own an FD and still does work on them. He is around from time to time, he now owns a 480~rwhp Supra MkIV..
Alex
08-09-06, 04:43 PM
#61
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Originally Posted by HDP
I'm not sure which state it is, but I've read somewhere that if you can show receipts of at least $500 towards the cost to fix your emission problem, they will automatically pass you. Someone else want to chime in to verify this?
08-09-06, 10:58 PM
#63
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Here is an update.
I called Mazdatrix to purchase the rebuild kit and I asked John if he had ever heard of anyone using the rear housing forward and the front housing aft and he said yes, but that there would be some emission related issues. (EGR comes to mind)
But... then he said it would not make or break the deal on passing smog. I read him my CO2 and O2 levels from my last failed smog (CO2 9.9, and O2 0.00) and he said it is "Pig Rich" and that it has to be either a stuck injector, reveresed fuel thermo sensor with water thermo sensor, bad TPS, trans switch, or ECU.
Tripoint said they tested the injectors for opening and closing and spray pattern but I still think it is pointing to the primary rear injector. (I had a bad injector once before, but had it ballanced by RC engineering.) because I pulled a soaking wet trailing plug out before I brought it to Tripoint, and it idles like it is running on one rotor. Also, Reggie at tripoint said he injected break cleaner down the rear intake runner and it never bogged or increased rpm, but when sprayed in the front runner the engine died. This sounds like there is either too much fuel, no fuel, or no spark in the rear rotor housing.
Bottom line is I am going to send out the injectors to RC (plus two more primaries from my parts car) and put them in with good peace of mind. Then I am going to button the whole thing back again swaping out Throttle bodies and ECUs until I get this right.
Right now the car is down to the block in the bay, but I think it is easier to put it back together than pull it out, rebuild it, and then hope like hell it worked.
I know it sounds like cheating, but this cheating is going to save me over $600 in parts and a months worth of weekends.
Here is my chant for the rest of the week....I am going to smog my car on Sunday....I am going to smog my car on Sunday....I am going to smog my car on Sunday...and pass!!!!
I called Mazdatrix to purchase the rebuild kit and I asked John if he had ever heard of anyone using the rear housing forward and the front housing aft and he said yes, but that there would be some emission related issues. (EGR comes to mind)
But... then he said it would not make or break the deal on passing smog. I read him my CO2 and O2 levels from my last failed smog (CO2 9.9, and O2 0.00) and he said it is "Pig Rich" and that it has to be either a stuck injector, reveresed fuel thermo sensor with water thermo sensor, bad TPS, trans switch, or ECU.
Tripoint said they tested the injectors for opening and closing and spray pattern but I still think it is pointing to the primary rear injector. (I had a bad injector once before, but had it ballanced by RC engineering.) because I pulled a soaking wet trailing plug out before I brought it to Tripoint, and it idles like it is running on one rotor. Also, Reggie at tripoint said he injected break cleaner down the rear intake runner and it never bogged or increased rpm, but when sprayed in the front runner the engine died. This sounds like there is either too much fuel, no fuel, or no spark in the rear rotor housing.
Bottom line is I am going to send out the injectors to RC (plus two more primaries from my parts car) and put them in with good peace of mind. Then I am going to button the whole thing back again swaping out Throttle bodies and ECUs until I get this right.
Right now the car is down to the block in the bay, but I think it is easier to put it back together than pull it out, rebuild it, and then hope like hell it worked.
I know it sounds like cheating, but this cheating is going to save me over $600 in parts and a months worth of weekends.
Here is my chant for the rest of the week....I am going to smog my car on Sunday....I am going to smog my car on Sunday....I am going to smog my car on Sunday...and pass!!!!
Last edited by spooledUP7; 08-09-06 at 10:59 PM. Reason: additional comments
08-13-06, 12:50 AM
#64
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Busy day today. I started puting the car bag together and I it's almost done. I just have the upper intake and the y-pipe to install.
It was so nice when the engine was on a stand, but working on it while in the bay is just a royal PITA. The turbo installation took 3 hours with three guys working on it!!!. Tip, don't install all the mainifold studs at once. It's too hard to line the turbo up to the manifold because it binds easily.
Should start tomorrow!!
It was so nice when the engine was on a stand, but working on it while in the bay is just a royal PITA. The turbo installation took 3 hours with three guys working on it!!!. Tip, don't install all the mainifold studs at once. It's too hard to line the turbo up to the manifold because it binds easily.
Should start tomorrow!!
08-14-06, 08:08 AM
#65
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Started!!!
She sounds like a new car! Now I just need to pass smog.
Things I did:
I tested every injector and sensor wire from the harness to the ECU.
I replaced the Rear Primary injector even though it's ohms were correct. The rear spark plugs were wet when I pulled them so I am thinking the old injector was slow.
I replaced the TPS with a spare I had. The one on my car had low Ohms reading at WOT compared to my spare. (I also replaced those stupid screws with allen bolts!!)
Tripoint replaced a bad clutch switch.
Tripoint also told me my cat was bad, but looking inside it there was a very minor crack on the ceramic brick, nothing like my old cat where half of the brick was gone or laying sideways.
What was the final thing that made the difference? Either the clutch switch, or the injector, but I am leaning toward the injector, it just sounded like a leaking injector.
So, off to smog today. Whish me luck.
She sounds like a new car! Now I just need to pass smog.
Things I did:
I tested every injector and sensor wire from the harness to the ECU.
I replaced the Rear Primary injector even though it's ohms were correct. The rear spark plugs were wet when I pulled them so I am thinking the old injector was slow.
I replaced the TPS with a spare I had. The one on my car had low Ohms reading at WOT compared to my spare. (I also replaced those stupid screws with allen bolts!!)
Tripoint replaced a bad clutch switch.
Tripoint also told me my cat was bad, but looking inside it there was a very minor crack on the ceramic brick, nothing like my old cat where half of the brick was gone or laying sideways.
What was the final thing that made the difference? Either the clutch switch, or the injector, but I am leaning toward the injector, it just sounded like a leaking injector.
So, off to smog today. Whish me luck.
08-15-06, 08:08 AM
#67
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Well, I tested it and it failed, but at least it's no longer a gross polluter. I am much, much closer to passing.
It looks like I am still not getting enough air to the cat. The CO2 levels were improved form 9.9 (rich) to 14.5, but my O2 is still only 0.1.
Test ......RPM......%CO2.....%O2.....HC(ppm).....%CO ......NO(ppm)
Limits
15 mph..----........----..........---.......88...............0.52 .........1006
25 mph..----........----..........---.......53...............0.50 ..........866
Tested
15 mph..2851......14.5........0.1.......114*........ 0.82*.........506 FAIL
25 mph..2874......14.7........0.0.......80*.......... 0.95*.........524 FAIL
What I have noticed with my previous passing test (4/03) is the 15 mph was run in 2nd gear at 1784 RPM. I wonder if this would be a smart idea to request the 2nd gear pull.
So now back to the drawing board.
I adjusted my TPS last night, aiming for the low side of the acceptable range with .75 volts on the green/red, and .45 on the black wire.
I also set my idle to 800 rpm.
This morning I am going to pull the secondary air injection tube and make sure I am getting air pump air through it, and then check the split air check valve.
I'm tempted to bypass the ACV all together and run a line from the air pump right to the cat, but I'm not going to since I really want the car to be running right, smog or no smog.
It looks like I am still not getting enough air to the cat. The CO2 levels were improved form 9.9 (rich) to 14.5, but my O2 is still only 0.1.
Test ......RPM......%CO2.....%O2.....HC(ppm).....%CO ......NO(ppm)
Limits
15 mph..----........----..........---.......88...............0.52 .........1006
25 mph..----........----..........---.......53...............0.50 ..........866
Tested
15 mph..2851......14.5........0.1.......114*........ 0.82*.........506 FAIL
25 mph..2874......14.7........0.0.......80*.......... 0.95*.........524 FAIL
What I have noticed with my previous passing test (4/03) is the 15 mph was run in 2nd gear at 1784 RPM. I wonder if this would be a smart idea to request the 2nd gear pull.
So now back to the drawing board.
I adjusted my TPS last night, aiming for the low side of the acceptable range with .75 volts on the green/red, and .45 on the black wire.
I also set my idle to 800 rpm.
This morning I am going to pull the secondary air injection tube and make sure I am getting air pump air through it, and then check the split air check valve.
I'm tempted to bypass the ACV all together and run a line from the air pump right to the cat, but I'm not going to since I really want the car to be running right, smog or no smog.
08-15-06, 10:21 AM
#68
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Well, I think I have found the problem. I pulled the Split air secondary port hose off the cat and ran a long hose out from under the car. I then revved the engine in gear with the breaks on and low and behold, no air at all until after 3200 when it purges.
The air bypass is blowing the whole time.
Now, I have to figure out how to fix it.
The air bypass is blowing the whole time.
Now, I have to figure out how to fix it.
08-16-06, 09:46 AM
#69
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Well, strange as it seems, it's now working to get air to the cat. Before I could not get any air, no matter the condition, but now it is. I probed around for connection issues, and maybe I created a better connection while doing it. I hate these kinds of fixes, you never know what it really was.
I don't know if the car will pass smog or not, but I will find out later today.
Here are things I am doing or have done for this next smog session.
- Adjusted the TPS to the low end of voltage in hopes of leaning out the throttle range. (.75v/.45v)
- Flush/Change oil. I pulled the cap off and it smells strongly like gas.
- Clean spark plugs - plugs have less than 300 miles on them, but just in case I will clean them.
- Pulled gas tank evap house off of the catch tank and plugged the line to the TB. (I hid any evidence of the matter)
- Cross my fingers
I don't know if the car will pass smog or not, but I will find out later today.
Here are things I am doing or have done for this next smog session.
- Adjusted the TPS to the low end of voltage in hopes of leaning out the throttle range. (.75v/.45v)
- Flush/Change oil. I pulled the cap off and it smells strongly like gas.
- Clean spark plugs - plugs have less than 300 miles on them, but just in case I will clean them.
- Pulled gas tank evap house off of the catch tank and plugged the line to the TB. (I hid any evidence of the matter)
- Cross my fingers
08-18-06, 05:15 PM
#73
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Passed!!!
Finally, a passing grade!
Test ......RPM......%CO2.....%O2.....HC(ppm).....%CO ......NO(ppm)
Limits
15 mph..----........----..........---.......88...............0.52 .........1006
25 mph..----........----..........---.......53...............0.50 ..........866
Tested
15 mph..1937......15.2........0.1......32........... 0.09..........90 PASS
25 mph..2874......14.7........0.1.......35.......... 0.05..........57 PASS
Nice!!!
Tri-Point Cat = Lean & Clean :-) Good buy
Test ......RPM......%CO2.....%O2.....HC(ppm).....%CO ......NO(ppm)
Limits
15 mph..----........----..........---.......88...............0.52 .........1006
25 mph..----........----..........---.......53...............0.50 ..........866
Tested
15 mph..1937......15.2........0.1......32........... 0.09..........90 PASS
25 mph..2874......14.7........0.1.......35.......... 0.05..........57 PASS
Nice!!!
Tri-Point Cat = Lean & Clean :-) Good buy
08-18-06, 08:29 PM
#75
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I was just about to suggest a new catalytic converter if you hadn't tried that. Even though your old one may look okay a fresh one does wonders for those smog numbers.
Congrats on being one of the few RX7 owners that doesn't just cheat when it comes smog time.
Congrats on being one of the few RX7 owners that doesn't just cheat when it comes smog time.
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