forcefed1

OK tried pumping you all for data on this a while back not much luck.
I think thFDs are a prime candodate for an ATW IC.
it would fit nicely and on a non R1 the extra radiator can be mounted right where the right oil cooler goes.
the plumbing for air would be short, the install could be very clean, the efficency would be high.

lets get it going guys. Why not do it. and don't say extra maintenance... If you own a 7 that can't be an issue that bothers you much.

Im talking for street and road track application here.

anyone have pictures?
anyone have data?
anyone what me to try it out? and build you a kit?
anything.
I have a huge FMIC on my other car. so I know teh advantages they offer I also think it's a pain, the clean install took a lot of work and modifying, the cooling system is less happy...

thoughts, comments?

JBC

This is an excellent topic. There appears to be plenty of room to mount one in the stock location depending of whether or not the pipe outlets must be facing upward. The efficientcy is certainly better according to Spearco.

This is a definate possibility for those RX-7 owners who use the car strictly for drag racing.

My only concerns would be:

-how long will the ice mixture last.

-how consistent will Temps be as it begins to run out and how does that affect tuning.

- Can it be used on a car that is not strictly a drag car ie road racing, street racing, daily driver.

I have seen alot of threads lately about alternates for intercooling as well as intercooling aides such as Propane injection, Nitrous Intercooler spray and water injection.

I am curious to know if anyone has tried these things with much success?

san7

I too am interested. I have a friend with a typhoon that has a factory air to water intercooler. He runs some special mix in it, I'll have to ask him what it is. It does a very good job, as he runs alot of boost all the time with almost 80,000 miles on it now. Very fun truck. I think a good setup like that would really help with heat soak issues of daily driving. The r1 second cooler location would be a good place, except if you have dual coolers! Anyone researched this?

skunks

does anyone know of a company that makes water to air intercoolers?

Nameless

Just so you guys know...air to water intercoolers are horrbily ugly.
Spearco makes them.

enuttage

Rotary Performance is running their drag car with a ATW IC right now. Don't know everything about it, but we quizzed Chris the last time we were up there.

-Ice mixture lasts about two runs (3 1/2 gallons)

-Certainly their car isn't very "street friendly", but it might be doable (well, anything is doable, just not necessarily done well )

-Seems to be doing them well. Their car isn't getting any slower.

-E

enuttage

Just wanted to add...it was pretty damn ugly. But who cares if it works well, right?

-E

SPOautos

Here is the main problem I have with a water to air IC. When your driving slow or sitting in traffic its going to heat soak unless you have ice in a tank(which we dont have room for the tank type. If you run it off a heat exchange like a radiator in the nose of the car its going to heat soak just like anything else when your moving slow. The prob is once that water gets really hot its going to take much longer to cool off than a air to air IC.

In addition they are much more expensive than a air - air. You have to wire in a pump and everything. The pump runs about $250 from Spearco but I'm sure you could find something that would work cheaper than that. Like mentioned before the LAIC's look terrible. You have more plumbing and a pump in the bay as well as the larger IC so the entire set up would look very cumbersome. If you bought a full LAIC set up for a 3rd Gen from Spearco it would cost roughly $2K and you still have to "engineer it" all you buy is parts not a "bolt in kit"

Then you have to ask your self what benifit you'll get? The only LAIC I think that would make a substantial power gain is on with the tank of ice but how condusive is it for a daily driver? Ice melts very quick.

I think the best thing is a SMIC with a fan on the back. If you put a good fan on a SMIC you wont have to worry about heat soak. A good SMIC cools very well, the only prob is heat soak while sitting or a very low speeds say under 20mph. If you install a fan that can REALLY move some air it'll be just like driving.

just my .02

STEPHEN

KevinK2

I've also pushed A/L with no takers.

This is the A/L IC Ray Lochhead used ( big one in middle of pic, #2-230:

http://www.spearcointercoolers.com/airliq00.htm

Installed in drag car:

http://www.scuderiaciriani.com/rx7/m...article_4.html

The original install was horizontal like this:

http://www.srmotorsports.com/srhintrb.jpg

That IC, $1000, is good for 500+hp with less than 1 psi pressure drop.

-------------------------

The way to do a street version is go big (hold tank only needed for drags) and use a 2nd exchanger with large area, fully covers the AC coil. Main IC would need some insulation. Pluses:

1) oem fans can keep things cool in traffic

2) L/A front core can be very efficient, and offer low airflow resistance, vs FMIC.

3) all air goes thru rad stack ... none stolen by SMIC.

4) autospeed.com has elegant control system to kick fans xtra on when needed.

5) easier to route 3/4" hose than 3" pipes for FMIC.

minuses:

a) more complicated, more stuff to malfunction

b) no kit available

The weight is not much diff than any big IC, and the air/liquid heat exchange is very efficient, negating arguments about less efficient 2 step heat transfer.

AJatx

iTrader: (1)

For roadracing, heatsoak may be a problem with A2I coolers.

However, for daily driving, drag, and street, it's fine.
My friend had very low air intake temperatures with NO ICE in the rear bin (where he mounts the marine bilge pump -- available at hardware stores or marine/boat shops). I saw intake temperatures during cruising around 13 degrees or so cooler than my Greddy A2A set-up. During traffic, it was no hotter than my A2A set-up.

We used Haltech datalogs for our comparison. Both FC's running similar hardware (minus the porting and intercooling) set-ups.

He used the stock FC intercooler and boxed it in (terrible welds unfortunately), plumbed the water lines from the stock location to the rear bin, and wired a switch for the bilge pump. He had a heat exchanger in the front of the car. Keep in mind, he had gutted most of the front end (No AC, aftermarket radiator and fan).

Paxton or Vortec sells the A2W kit for about $1200 (I recall). My friend (Mustang tuner) installed two of these kits on supercharged Saleens. The kit looks very clean and trick. I would probably make my own A2W, but if you want to stay hands free as possible, it's a kit worth looking at.

I'd like to see more horizontal mount heat exchangers (radiators, intercoolers, oil coolers, etc) to minimize blocked paths. It's pretty limited, but some ideas would be great. It's amazing how much cooler the car will run when you remove the AC condensor core out of the way of the radiator (FD and FC).

J

bjstang

Only when using an additional cooling agent (i.e. ice) will the LAIC be more efficient. If you were using outside air to cool water to cool intake air, that would be counterproductive. The water would only offer resistance to heat transfer. But, if you were cooling the water first, it could be more effective. From what I've read, you should only use LAIC if you are racing and can replinish the cooling source (ice) or are really cramped for space, since the LAIC is more compact. Really, I should be able to work all of this out for you on paper, since I got an A in Heat Transfer last semester, but I'm a slacker

KevinK2

"Only when using an additional cooling agent (i.e. ice) will the LAIC be more efficient."

nonsense. by bringing the mass of the fluid near ambient, you have excellent performance for transient use, proven by ajatx's real world test results with a crude a/l unit, vs a core designed for a/l heat transfer.

For track use, consider road course test data, Setup: M2 med IC and rich chip for 12 psi, with 99 bumper and m-speed hood.

On 85F day, consistent charge temp max was 158F. A well designed a/l should equal or better this. A FMIC will run cooler, but often have o'heating issues, and often loose ac in the upgrade.

For road-track use, the front exchanger is critical, and is not what is often supplied in kits for drags or transient street use.

Trout

We have a guy down here in the New Orleans Rx-7 club that made his own using two air to liquid cores from a Thunderbird turbo coupe. Use a Paxton pump with a Toyota 4-runner radiator cut down to fit the nose of his Veilside bumper.

Not sure of any numbers although he said it did good on the dyno.

I asked Badass7 to post the pictures he has of Freddie's set-up.

Jack

badass7

Here you go guys....BTW you can contact Freddie for more details at Freddie@internet8.net He's running 12.3 1/4 times with bad launches. Should be in the 11's.

badass7

Here's a pic of his exterior. He owns a Body shop and BY FAR laid down the BEST paint job I've ever seen on an Rx-7. The black is Flawless ! I think he put down about 5 coats of paint hehe.

Slither

If you want a good Air to Water intercooler, do what i plan on doing. I may be using one off a new Lightning truck. The ones on those trucks lower the temp to about 15degrees above ambiant temp. They work great and take allmost all the heat out of the air. I plan on trying this with the Rx7 Im about to get.
Usually, the Air to Air coolers work better for street, but the ones on the Lightnings work so well, Im gonna give it a try.

VELCRO SHOES

Well like I thought,this isnt for anywhere but the track.Well this is what it semms like anyways.


________________
T51R-KAI

forcefed1

OK if you read my first post I’m looking to do this on a semi daily driver with road racing in mind. My 7 won't see the drag strip they're all 1/8 mile any how. So the ice thing is not what I’m interested in.
For the pump I found the pump the GMC typhoon uses is pretty good. Look cheep and works for OEM.
As for the lightening truck core I never looked into it.
spearco makes several ALIC kits and also sells several cores.

for me the decision is between the use of a horizontal mount IC under the hood or an ALIC also mounted in the stock location. The heat exchanger for the front to cool the water.
the street seems like an ideal place to use these intercoolers. You only spend a few seconds at a time boosting. Then you have time for a bit to cool the water back to ambient and do it again.
I agree the intercooler is not as pretty. But the gains are so many

3/4" plumbing easier to route

Short plumbing for the air path.

Price for the core is actually LOWER or the same compared to a2a

no robbing air from radiator (if using the right side)

Better efficiency in tight package


The thought of heat soak in traffic is one I never entertained. But I suppose that is an advantage on a FMIC or even SMIC.

Let’s keep the thread alive guys. Anyone have any data from other channels on the subject?

legendr35

that is a very sweet paint job...looks so deep

Bridgeported

Who cares how good an air-water intercooler set up looks like. You're doing it to cool the air charge, not to impress the ladies with the looks !!!! This reminds me of the fast and furious for some reason...

turbojeff

iTrader: (30)

It all comes down to the same problem IMHO (earlier post didn't post).

The FD doesn't have a lot of room in the engine bay or upfront in the nose. Lighting, Turbo Coupe all have HUGE noses.

Anyway I think A/L can work but not with "everything" a/c, PS, dual oil coolers, etc.

Let's not reinvent the wheel, the FD isn't made to be a 400+hp car. Take a look at the stock nose, the fresh air inlet is VERY small, smaller than almost all other types of cars.

If you REALLY want to reduce temps go single, of course that has it's downsides: low end power and emissions issues...

Jeff

enuttage

Actually, just emissions in my book. I have 0 low end power issues.

-E

KevinK2

spearco A/L pics

http://www.turboneticsinc.com/spearco/airliq00.htm

Big one in middle used by Ray Lockhead in 9 sec set-up.

Big ones have NO pressure drop.

schism

My opinion on the matter is, that an air to water intercooler would be considerably more eficient than a air to air intercooler. The heat capacity of water is extremely high, at 4.18. The intake temps would be a lot lower with this intercooler. There may be other factors that i am not considering though.

80-CU.IN.T

Liquid to air intercoolers are more efficient in heat transfer than air to air intercoolers. Water is a great heat exchanger. I don't think it is necessary in most turbo applications unless you are creating enormous amounts of heat. ( Very high boost or way high turbine speed - out of the turbos efficiency. )

Pros - Very short intercooler lines, better efficiency, compact, you can lower your intake charge below ambient air temperature ( Ice & water ) and special chemicals are now supposedly becoming available to the public that have a nominal operating temperature below 32 degrees F. ( I was told this 2 years ago and will believe it when I see it ). ( Space Shuttle **** )

Cons - Weight ( Intercooler, Radiator & Fluid ), Plumbing ( Lines & water pump ).

( I would have run a water to air intercooler in my car ) but I didn't think it was necessary. Also I was concerned about the extra weight hanging off the nose of my car. If my FD3S had a trunk, I would have mounted the extra radiator there with rectangular aluminum tubing under my car with fins attached for extra cooling. With proper ducking and good fans, a trunk mounted radiator for the intercooler would be very efficient. It would also move more weight to the rear which I think is a good thing. If you look at mid and rear engine cars they have already gone through this and other thought processes by mounting there radiators in the front of the car.