Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

I consider GTR to have one of the top awd system... so, I thought I post some pictures of it for some of you to see and think about how the system is fitted into GTR..













I don't know.. maybe other awd system might be lighter, but definitely one in GTR doesn't look light... Also, in order to put one in the FD, you either would have to raise the engine higher to clear any modern awd systems... Which would definitely throw off the balance that most people like about the FDs.

I would also like to point out that its not just having awd but having all the sensors and computers that controls the awd systems that makes the car better than some rwd cars (far as maybe how easy they are to drive). I just can't imagine just putting the awd system in an FD would do anything if you can't tune the suspension and the computer to FD's weight and driveability balance.... I think if you get to that level of building a car, than why not just go out and buy a GTR or other AWD cars?? I think this is the same thinking principle I have about LS into FDs.. Why?? When you could go buy a new Z06?? But I also understand that there are people who REALLY love building unique one of a kind car, but like LS into FDs, I really don't see doing something like this is nothing more than being different.

superdan50

iTrader: (3)

i definitely agree with the LS swap (assuming you are referring to a C5 Z06) why swap a vette motor into a 7 when for the same price you could own a vette that is factory (as reliable as you can be, generally speaking).

as far as an F1 car goes the reason they handle the way they do is DOWN-FORCE. if you were to increase the FD's down force to F1 levels and increase the power, the only reason for awd is to be different just like the LS swap.

my point being there are better ways to achieve higher performance while maintaining (similar to) stock setup.

BridgePorted12A

iTrader: (6)

True, but that doesn't (IMO) justify putting an awd system into one of the best handling sports cars ever produced. Like I said, everyone is different and I respect that so I'll let you all be, but I will leave you with one more thing to consider:

Everyone seems to forget what the FD is truly considered, and that is a Front-mid engine layout design. Allowing for much better center of gravity when compared to a normal front engined car, allowing for much better handling and traction for this matter....this is one of the main reason the Mazda engineers used the rotary engine from the start (not to mention the weight and performance, but b/c of how low and far back the engine could be placed in the engine bay).

From Sport Compact Car of 2001 for the Ultimate Handling Shootout: (just one of MANY articles of how the FD can dominate on the track when properly setup)

"Driven with seriousness, however, the Rx-7 managed 1.035g, the highest reading of the contest, and the highest we have ever recorded without R-compound tires."


http://sportcompactcar.automotive.co...mes/index.html

The FD also set multiple records when it was released for handling and braking from 60mph....

Ryan

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

in defense of T-von, I could understand where he is coming from.. Ideally, if engine could be low (Not sure if you guys seen Speedsource RX8 3 rotor, where 20B sits so low the dry sump plate is the flat bottom of the car), amazing traction control system, all wheel drive, light weight, tons of power, etc etc... But in real world, I think achieving that is VERY hard task. I mean, hundreds of engineers, millions of dollars, and thousands of man hours only produced 4500lb Veyron.

t-von

iTrader: (8)

Your forgetting how light the fd already is. The above differential on the 2nd gen Rx7 doesn't weight that much. I bet you if this was actually done to an rx7, the weight could still be at 3000lbs of less.

Drag surfaces and asphault are two totaly different surfaces. Also who do you know that drives around on drag slicks? My whole point is the use of AWD in hi horse power applications (500rwhp+) to help with traction and putting more power down to the asphault. That's all I'm saying!



I know there's a difference between cars that are designed with AWD vs a modification adding AWD. I also never said it was the best option for the Rx7 either. All I'm stating is the added benefits of having the system if you have a vehicle thats been modded to really hi levels of hp. Go check out some the 600+ rwhp 20b's in the 20b section. Ironmdnx, bewtew, and David Hayes all have over 600+rwhp. Ask anyone of them how comfortable they feel rolling on the throttle in 4th gear. They will all tell you the rear easily breaks loose. That is dangerious!. There is simply not enough weight in the rear to put that kind of power down on the street. If they had AWD it would be a different story. Lastly the weight added with a AWD system at these hp level is a mute point.

t-von

iTrader: (8)

My justification for using the system if for extreme examples.


I haven't forgotten anything. Look at my sig. Staying true to Mazda's design philosophy is my #1 goal with my 20b project. Hp is 2nd.


Again none of these Rx7 have 500+rwhp either.

Ryan[/QUOTE]

BridgePorted12A

iTrader: (6)

[/QUOTE]

Agreed, but I was just stating this to back up my opinion that the FD doesn't need awd. Also, I know I quoted you but my main opinion wasn't ness. pointed directly at you, just the thread topic as a whole, just fyi.

t-von

iTrader: (8)

My appologies. I didn't realize that evo was built to such extremes. I saw the video a couple weeks ago and was just in awe. When I get home I'll post 2 videos of both ReAmemeya's time attack Fd and their NA PP 20b race prepped Fd running the same course. There comes a point that adding more power wont make a vehicle corner at a higher velocity. This Evo's ability to put more power down in the curves is one of it's biggest advantages.



That's the thing! I'm not talking about the average Joe Rx7. I clearly stated vehicles with 500+rwhp. Those are extreme levels for light weight sports cars.




[/QUOTE]

FDWarrior

iTrader: (6)

^ You should check out the Revolution TA-2 fd3s. The revolution ta-2 fd3s runs around tsukuba in a 54 range. The Panspeed fd also laps tsukuba in the low 55 range. You can also put down power in the same effective manner as awd with the right set-up.

ALPSTA

iTrader: (3)

[/QUOTE]

Evo does not put more power down in the curves. Awd has slightly better corner exit. Taking a corner has 3 stages, braking into the corner/corner entry speed, carrying that speed through the corner/mid corner and corner exit. Awd is better in corner exit but that's not the be all end all of cornering. Best way to explain this is when you watch track races most of the time you'll see fwd, awd and rwd cars all in one category and throughout the season there'll be winners from each configuration, otherwise only winners would be awd drivers due to their corner exit.

By average Joe i meant average driver with an average income. Someone like that can afford a 500+hp RX7 if he wants to and again someone like that can easily improve the handling and traction of his RX7 to higher standards. Face it an awd RX7 set up is not realistic nor affordable to the average Joe who you think needs an awd RX7. Even if it was affordable you still didn't write anything convincing about why an FD should be awd other then stating the obvious about awd systems in general. And according to you every car over 500hp should be awd unless mid-engined, most companies and race teams don't seem to think so.

Anyway let's just agree to disagree before it turns into special olympics.

ALPSTA

iTrader: (3)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcElbVvvBXk
video taken from this thead: https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...39#post9806439

NissanConvert

iTrader: (1)

The drivetrain of the GTR is actually a significant portion of the weight of the car. The GTR's claim to fame isn't the AWD so much as the electronic torque biasing center diff. I'm not sure why the OP is still pursuing this. Starting with a rear biased awd system would be immensely superior to than trying to bodge this together in a garage.

t-von

iTrader: (8)

Again I'm not talking about the average Joe or the expense or the ability to do such. I'm just talking about the POSSIBILITY of having AWD and the added traction you get with awd when you have too much power for the rear tires on the street for street car.

For the most part I've been talking overpowered street cars here. Every car company has their own design theme. Whatever theme that is is their identity. I believe the rotary is one of the best engine designs in the world. Guess what? There are hundreds of other piston engine making companies out that think otherwise. Or maybe these other companies don't like to think outside the box. Well I'm one of those type of people who really thinks outside the box. I will never accept what is because I believe somethings can always be improved with a little ingenuity. I don't know maybe you choose to be a follower because you keep talking about what other compaies are doing soo they must be right. Not me I don't think that way! Alot of automotive companies do things to separate themselves from the others. It's not always about jumping on the bandwagon and doing what everyone else does.


Don't even go there buddy with my intelligence level! The things I'm currently doing with my NA 20b project are gonna be revolutionary. Never underestimate the determined little guy in his garage. Stay tuned! You know Albert Einstein failed math but he was a genius. I'll leave this thread on that note!

FDWarrior

iTrader: (6)

I love rx-7 club because if this was zilvia or nico it would have all ready denigrated into a unintelligible argument. I would love to have some thing awd for the stupid snow Ohio is getting now.

ALPSTA

iTrader: (3)

Still missing the point and stating the obvious. Bottomline is nobody in this thread thinks awd is needed for a RX7 no matter what hp cause it's a car specifically designed to be a great rwd handler. I posted few videos to show you it's not needed and in those videos you can see high hp awd cars also. To you in theory awd for RX7 may be ok but in practice it's quite the opposite and I really don't understand how you fail to see that. People having difficulty fitting a 4" exhaust system and you're talking about a full awd driveline and one that'll handle like a GTR, not a WRX, Even Subaru is having hard time getting it right and you think can do it in your garage.

"Arguing over the internet is like special olympics even if you win you're still retarded" have you ever heard that saying? It applies to both of us, I don't know where you got the questioning your intelligence part, or maybe you just wanted to talk about your "revolutionary" na 20b project. Anyway good luck with it, keep us updated with pics and info.

t-von

iTrader: (8)

Here we go again with the everyone else comments. To each his own with what you do with your own car. That's the point YOU keep missing. There's a lot of posters on the thread that don't have ANY AWD experience. But because they think is not a good option or idea, you think I'm suppose to go along and believe their opinions as well? Again I don't jump on bandwagons. Fact of the matter is that hardly know one has seriously put time, effort, and or a commitment in doing a conversion to an Rx7 (myself included). With that in mind, to say it wont be beneficial IMHO is a little ridiculous. If Dr Felix Wankel gave up on his 1st try, we wouldn't have our beloved rotary engine today. There are numerous ways to do it if you so choose. It doesn't have to always be something extravogant like what the GTR/EVO/Subaru systems.



What practice are you refering too? How many AWD rx7 conversions are you aware of? So far I know of one example on the 1st page of this thread. If that's the only example, then there has not been nearly enough practice to claim it can't be a worth wild modification if someone chooses to do such.


Never claimed to do it perfectly did I? I said it can be done. I haven't done any research on this for an Rx7 because personally I would never do something like this to my car. Now I do have plans for a conversion on something else. But since were talking Rx7, lets just speculate since that's what this thread is suppose to be about. I've already installed the longer 20b in my engine bay and moved it back 5 1/2" to keep the stock weight balance and even improved on the center of gravity and polar moment. This required me to build a complete from scratch intake set-up as I was not using the factory intake. So for me to do the same with a shorter and lighter 13b would be very easy. Moving the 13b back would leave some extra room for a differential. For starters, I would just simply use another differential assembly from another FD. So now we have limited slip front and back with no uneccessary electronics and really no excessive weight added to the already light Rx7. Now as far as the transfer case goes, I would just source something like what's used on that 2nd gen. This may or may not work. Who knows, it has never been done this way as of yet.

ALPSTA

iTrader: (3)

It does have to be something like a GTR/EVO system to be worth it for a car like RX7. Why else would you move your 20b back not the effect the weight bias. Obviously you know RX7 is a great car and little things can ruin it or let's not say ruin but more like little things can make you go backwards. Everyone here drives a min. 250hp and in average 300-400hp car so give them the credit they deserve. This is not Honda City forum if you haven't noticed. RX7 ownership is quite unique and people here know more about their cars then the average car enthusiast. You have to stop and think when you're the only one in a group who thinks a FD RX7 would be better with an awd system made in your garage. This has nothing to do with bandwagons. If none of your mates is ******* a stinky fat chick, it's called common sense not bandwagon. You can believe in whatever you like and you can do whatever you like and I never said an awd system can't be done. With enough money you can do anything. You can even turn your RX7 into mid engine if you like.

What's ridiculous is you thinking a backyard awd system will make a day and night difference on our cars. And if all this is for a small traction benefit, it's a stupid decision. 10hp NOS kit would provide a benefit too

I didn't want this to turn into a pissing contest but since you seem to think you're the only one in here with real AWD experience and other's don't, I'll have to say I'm not one of them and I suggest you look at my location info. Australia = right hand drive = plenty of JDM AWD cars. I've owned, driven and been in many awd cars and I quite like them. For everyday use they are great, feels much safer and drives in the rain like it's dry. But here is the thing I've also pushed many of them to the limit, some were great some sucked. Give the ones that sucked 500hp and they'll suck even more. That's the thing, when we hypothetically discussing this I can picture in my head what it'd be like and compare the many awd cars I've driven but you can't. You said it yourself that it doesn't have to be like a GTR/EVO. Well then do I want my RX7 to be like a subaru wrx with 500hp? Hell no.

Another thing is the feel, I don't recall any of these cars coming close to the driver feel of a FD RX7 except EVOs (the reason EVO feels like that is because of it's hard suspension and sharp steering not just because it's awd). And you think it's a great idea to ruin all that to get a bit more traction. You're trying to sell something nobody wants to buy.

The question is how many tries will it take you?


I'm referring to awd rx7 in your head and awd that can be done in your garage. I don't have to swim in it to know water will be cold in Antartica. By theory I meant the way you think in your head how great it'll be and when you step on it in corners it'll go like a slingshot etc. and by practice I meant how it'll be difficult to get it right, how abrubt it'll be in on/off throttle actions, how it'll end up understeering if you get the corner wrong or on sudden direction changes, how hard it'll be on the FD transmission, on rotary engine and on other parts that are built and designed for a 1250kg lightweight rwd. I've driven way too many awd cars to have an opinion on this.


Again stating the obvious like you've been the whole thread. We know all that and personally I don't care. The discussion started because everyone except you said they wouldn't do it to a RX7 and it wouldn't be wise both financially and as a project in general and then you went on about the advantages of awd system and awd theory and traction but apparently we now found out that you'd never do something like this to your car. And if you never claimed that it can be done perfectly, why did you drag this on for so long? Do you think a great rwd car like a RX7 deserves a half a$$ backyard awd job.

t-von

iTrader: (8)

Someone thought enough about the project to start a thread didn't they? Someone also thought enough to bring it back form the dead. All the negative attention has come from those who think it's not neccessary. That's great for them. Just because it's not neccessary for you, doesn't mean we can't put our heads together and think of ways to do such. It is something unique for that individual who may give it a try. That's what these forums are for. Research and info. Not NO NO NO you shouldn't do that.




You need to loose some of this anger and re-read what you just said. Again it's not up to you to dictate who does what (stupid or not).


You don't comprehend or read to well. Go find any one of my post where I said anything like that.




That's the point! It's your choice what you do to your own car. So why are you so hell bent on making sure know one else even gives it a try if they so choose?




And your trying to convince everyone why not to do it. Fine you made your point. Have you even considered that the person who may do this could care less about fell? You think that everyone who buys an Fd rx7 all buy the vehicle for the same reason. You didn't start this thread did you? News flash you can try to convince people till their blue in the face. If someone whats to do something, there isn't a damn thing to can do to stop them. All I've done is come on here are state that the added benefits you could get if done on hi hp applications. You've take those comments of mine and completlely flipped them around to me saying that if could be best thing for the rx7. Geez!



Why should the number of trys even matter?



Now this is usefull info to those that need it. Thx!




I've chosen to drag this on due to all your negativity on the subject. With all your experience, not once have you offered any positive solution to doing such a project. If you could care less about this subject then leave the thread to those who may have intrest. Only reason why I'm here is to gain info and knowledge on the subject for another future project. You have done nothing but block that info with all your negative ranting. Just because this may not be the best option for the Rx7 doesn't mean the info and knowledge gained can't be used elsewhere.

superdan50

iTrader: (3)

back to the reason i revived this thread, did it ever get done?

robzter

just buy an audi.

ALPSTA

iTrader: (3)

I wonder how long it'll take you to start quoting/replying to every single word instead of every sentence, why not try to understand the point of the whole post.

It all started because I disagreed with the statement below and you took it personal and went on and on.

Then you contradicted yourself:

Then you changed your mind again, for the sake of winning an argument:

Re-read the whole thread and you'll see I'm standing my ground. I'm not trying to dictate anyone anything. I said it can be done right if you spend the right amount of money but to me it isn't a wise decision and definitely should not be a backyard job. Because of my past experiences, I explained why it isn't a wise decision.

In Sydney we have a gay parade called Mardi Gras, they walk around wearing leather pants with buttcheek parts cut out and buttcheeks sticking out. I don't approve it but it sure is different. It's not up to me to tell them what to do but if they start a thread about it I'll write my opinion, that doesn't mean I'm stopping them from wearing the same pants again.

What I mean is one way to look at it is according to you I'm blocking the OP doing something great and another way to look at it is you're encouring him to do something really stupid but different. Yes it's not up to us to decide and that's why I'm wondering why you went on for so long even after I suggested that we agree to disagree and leave it at that. Are you one of those guys who always have to have the last word to feel like he won a contest (more like a pissing contest). Let him draw his own conclusion and if he's going to do it he's going to do it.

This thread could've been dead again in no time if you re-read what has been written and let it go.

bewtew

iTrader: (7)

GTR's transmissions are crapppp!

ALPSTA

iTrader: (3)

It probably never got done for the reason Monkman33 explained in page 2. OR, he is reading this thread while drinking a 6 pack Redbull to run back to the backyard of his trailer and keep welding those rusty pipes until his eyes bleed. I might've given him motivation to finish it faster who knows j/k

FDWarrior

iTrader: (6)

I would love to see some one build this, then race the FEED FD on a track. I would bet the titles to my FD, and my 2010 camaro on what I think would happen. I think the feed fd would do the same to an awd fd as what it did to the mcr r35, but on a much larger and more embarrassing scale.

t-von

iTrader: (8)

Quoting specific parts make if easier to track the individual replys. You jumble all ours together. This forces those to have to re-read the entire quote to get an idea to what your replying to.

It takes two you know I see nothing wrong with my post below:

My own quoteAs you can see my interest was doing this for a AWD mid engine 4rotor. Not an Rx7!

Then my next reply was:



Yet you think I'm taking things personal? LOL!

Explain to me how I contradicted myself?



Explain to me where I changed my mind?



Just like I'm standing mine Trying to convince that this is a stupid idea is dictating. You in fact did say it was stupid did you not? Again just because you disagree with the idea doesn't mean those interested should just say "Alpsta with all his AWD experience is right. We shouldn't do this because of the expense or it's just STUPID, or it takes the feel away from the Fd, or there's no way we could put something together that makes any usefull since in our garages ect ect" That's a lot of negative dribble don't you think? I'm trying to stay open minded and positive about the concept. I can't say the same about you.