3mm apex seal question
02-24-06, 01:13 PM
#1
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3mm apex seal question
I would like to buy them and I was wondering after I install them ( I plan on doing it myself ) is there anything else I have to do I have PFC and some one to tune it. But do I need to get a street port or anything else I need?
Marc
Marc
02-24-06, 01:19 PM
#2
You wouldn't have to do anything else if that is the only thing you are doing, other than having the rotors milled to accept a 3mm apex seal. To intall them, you have to take the entire engine apart so you might as well give it a street port while you are in there. By the way there is no advantage to running 3mm seals unless you plan to run high boost or need to because the rotors are to worn to accept 2mm seals.
Hope this helps,
Dan
Hope this helps,
Dan
02-24-06, 01:35 PM
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Thank you guys.... I v worked on Hondas all my life I took apart my 2jz motor in my Supratt how hard will this be? and how much are the OEM 2mm apex seals cost?
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02-25-06, 01:12 AM
#9
I dont recommend 2mm seals for the average person running over 325rwhp. Sure, there are those that do it, and they can hold up. BUt the average joe can always use some insurance. THere is no real downside to a good 3mm setup other than the extra few hundred bucks in milling and seal costs. THey make good compression and chatter/float is not an issue on a street engine. Friction increase is negligible. There is no denying that 3mm seals are 50% thicker and therefore 50% harder to break than 2mm...regardless of where that breaking point lies.
02-25-06, 01:27 AM
#10
im with kevin on this... the 3mm seals add a lil insurance policy and are much more user friendly. more forgiving to detonation even though once you get the first sign of detonation with a rotary its pretty much to late. 3mm seals are a lil more insurance theres no real downside to them besides the slight increased friction and the not completely perfect seal. im goin with 3mm seals in a couple weeks in my new motor... just tryin to find the money 
anyway 3mm all the way!
anyway 3mm all the way!
02-25-06, 08:39 AM
#11
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2mm Rx8 style here with over 325HP, seals better runs smother. Quite a few tuner I talked to discouraged the use of 3mm seals before my rebuild. There may be difference but there isn't engine management system for the RX-7 that would react fast enough to save you from it. Save the money and for some other part that will need to repaired.
02-25-06, 10:07 AM
#12
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Honestly, we could argue 2mm or 3mm for ages. It is one of the basic arguments of rotoring. So I think what we should say is it is personal preference.
Some pro-rebuilders swear by 3 mm seals yet some including Re Amemiya, Auto Select, R-Magic and Racing Beat.
The first three beleive in OEM seals and from an article I read on Racing beat they recommend ceramic seals or aluminium filled carbon seals.
With all this being said I would say that what you must remember is that it is all about Air/Fuel Ratio. From the best of my knowledge it is an overly lean mixture that causes detonation which leads to apex seal failure.
So with that being said with 2mm's you should have a good seal. However, this must and MUST I say be accompanied with a constant and adequate fuel system as well as an air intake system that sees constant temps that guarantee your a/f ratios. This must again be accompanied by a good tune.
Re Amemiya uses OEM 2mm in their 380hp Touge car, 400+hp drift car, Mr. Amemiya's own car and their Tsukuba Time Attack car. Again it's all about A/F's.
Good luck,
Alex
P.S I am not saying I am 100% right and everyone is 100% wrong. This is a personal matter so do your research call up a few tuners and make your own opinion
Some pro-rebuilders swear by 3 mm seals yet some including Re Amemiya, Auto Select, R-Magic and Racing Beat.
The first three beleive in OEM seals and from an article I read on Racing beat they recommend ceramic seals or aluminium filled carbon seals.
With all this being said I would say that what you must remember is that it is all about Air/Fuel Ratio. From the best of my knowledge it is an overly lean mixture that causes detonation which leads to apex seal failure.
So with that being said with 2mm's you should have a good seal. However, this must and MUST I say be accompanied with a constant and adequate fuel system as well as an air intake system that sees constant temps that guarantee your a/f ratios. This must again be accompanied by a good tune.
Re Amemiya uses OEM 2mm in their 380hp Touge car, 400+hp drift car, Mr. Amemiya's own car and their Tsukuba Time Attack car. Again it's all about A/F's.
Good luck,
Alex
P.S I am not saying I am 100% right and everyone is 100% wrong. This is a personal matter so do your research call up a few tuners and make your own opinion
04-18-06, 12:49 AM
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Originally Posted by RotaryResurrection
I dont recommend 2mm seals for the average person running over 325rwhp. Sure, there are those that do it, and they can hold up. BUt the average joe can always use some insurance. THere is no real downside to a good 3mm setup other than the extra few hundred bucks in milling and seal costs. THey make good compression and chatter/float is not an issue on a street engine. Friction increase is negligible. There is no denying that 3mm seals are 50% thicker and therefore 50% harder to break than 2mm...regardless of where that breaking point lies.
3mm seals are added insurance against minor detonation, and these engines need all they can get...esp at higher boost
04-18-06, 05:25 PM
#17
im with the 3mm seals as added protection as i posted in the begining but im kinda not jumping from the 2mm seals as there are a bit of people with over 400whp 3rd gens with 2mm seals... maybe its just that they are smart dont get greedy with boosting and have a good tune. im debating getting the 3mm seals so im looking for just a little bit more info. and again what do i need different if i do the 3mm seals?
04-18-06, 06:01 PM
#18
Rotor milling, apex seals, apex seal springs, corner seals.
You guys are so used to highly modded FD's that you don't even flinch when mentioning 400+rwhp rotaries. IF you think about it, that is a *substantial* power level for this engine. I mean, the engine was already "outside the envelope" when it was designed, and you're talking about almost twice the stock power levels (250 flywheel hp ~= 220rwhp).
Yes, 2mm seals CAN support high power...no denying that. And yes, 3mm seals CAN be broken/defeated. In general, forces that WILL break 2mm seals, might not break 3mm seals. There is the chance the force will still be great enough to break the 3mm's, but there's a chance it will not, in which case your investment just paid off.
You guys are so used to highly modded FD's that you don't even flinch when mentioning 400+rwhp rotaries. IF you think about it, that is a *substantial* power level for this engine. I mean, the engine was already "outside the envelope" when it was designed, and you're talking about almost twice the stock power levels (250 flywheel hp ~= 220rwhp).
Yes, 2mm seals CAN support high power...no denying that. And yes, 3mm seals CAN be broken/defeated. In general, forces that WILL break 2mm seals, might not break 3mm seals. There is the chance the force will still be great enough to break the 3mm's, but there's a chance it will not, in which case your investment just paid off.
04-19-06, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by 1FooknTiteFD
If a car is properly tuned, then it shouldn't detonate and therefore it wouldn't need the extra protection of 3mm seals right?
I've seen a motor where the rotor was dented in from detonation -- the 3mm seals survived.
04-19-06, 10:46 PM
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Do 3mm ones take longer to break in?
I'm looking at buying a freshly built FD with 3mm seals and I would have to drive it 800miles mostly highway. Bad idea or would the 3mm seals be fine with near constant rpms on the break in? I keep finding conflicting info. Some sites say never leave it constant, but then suggest letting it idle for a few hours.
I broke in my FC just fine, but I didn't have to drive it on the highway either.
I'm looking at buying a freshly built FD with 3mm seals and I would have to drive it 800miles mostly highway. Bad idea or would the 3mm seals be fine with near constant rpms on the break in? I keep finding conflicting info. Some sites say never leave it constant, but then suggest letting it idle for a few hours.
I broke in my FC just fine, but I didn't have to drive it on the highway either.