13B-REW to LS1 Perspective
05-07-08, 06:37 PM
#327
If you skim through the pages, no other car was mentioned. The discussion is about peoples opinions and preferences of these 2 engines in an FD.
Nothing more, nothing less.
The fact that you wanted to bring in an FC into it does not only sway away the direction of the subject but could also add more fuel to the fire.
Thats my opinion, i dont really care about this thread anymore, i gave up on it lol.
05-07-08, 06:55 PM
#328
The 13B-REW engine has a bad reputation which I consider to be unreasonable.
The engine itself is good, but Mazda grossly un-engineered three supportive support systems.
(1) The radiator was too small considering the power of the engine.
(2) The IC was also too small considering engine power.
(3) ECU programming was negligent as the cooling fans would not work unless the engine reached 221F and emergency /high speed fan usage
(thermoswitch) was at 226F. Combined this with poor mechanic training/service, and the poor reputation was formed.
Upgrade the radiator and IC, and put in a Apexi PFC with properly adjusted fans, and the engine is reliable. Consider that this engine was producing about 225 whp from 2.6L.
The LS1 (5.7L) family of engines produce between about 305 to 350 hp in 2001. The LS6 version made 385 to 405 hp. Theses were flywheel, not whp.
If the Chevy 5.7L engine had produced the same hp per liter as the stock 13B-REW, it would have produced 493whp. My friend's LS1 with reworked heads, headers, mild cam upgrade, FAST intake manifold and TB, with 4" cold intake; produces 444whp. Still 49hp short of equivalency.
Now consider the above upgraded 13B at about 15psi boost produces 350whp and was still reliable. To match power per liter, the LS1 would need to make 761whp.
Mine and many single turbo 13B-REW are easily making about 400 whp with stock or close to stock ports. Again the LS1 would have to make 877 whp to match power per liter.
Given this perception, our little engine is amazing! If the Chevys had produced equivalent power during the same time frame, I wonder how reliable they would have been.
The engine itself is good, but Mazda grossly un-engineered three supportive support systems.
(1) The radiator was too small considering the power of the engine.
(2) The IC was also too small considering engine power.
(3) ECU programming was negligent as the cooling fans would not work unless the engine reached 221F and emergency /high speed fan usage
(thermoswitch) was at 226F. Combined this with poor mechanic training/service, and the poor reputation was formed.
Upgrade the radiator and IC, and put in a Apexi PFC with properly adjusted fans, and the engine is reliable. Consider that this engine was producing about 225 whp from 2.6L.
The LS1 (5.7L) family of engines produce between about 305 to 350 hp in 2001. The LS6 version made 385 to 405 hp. Theses were flywheel, not whp.
If the Chevy 5.7L engine had produced the same hp per liter as the stock 13B-REW, it would have produced 493whp. My friend's LS1 with reworked heads, headers, mild cam upgrade, FAST intake manifold and TB, with 4" cold intake; produces 444whp. Still 49hp short of equivalency.
Now consider the above upgraded 13B at about 15psi boost produces 350whp and was still reliable. To match power per liter, the LS1 would need to make 761whp.
Mine and many single turbo 13B-REW are easily making about 400 whp with stock or close to stock ports. Again the LS1 would have to make 877 whp to match power per liter.
Given this perception, our little engine is amazing! If the Chevys had produced equivalent power during the same time frame, I wonder how reliable they would have been.
Where was an FD mentioned in the Oringinal Post?
My response was to the guys who claim how much lighter the 13b is than the ls1.
my ls1 just happens to be in an FC.
Like i said, it weighs 2840 with a 40-50lb battery behind the passenger seat and about 10-15lbs of tools. Not to bad when it oringinally weighed about 2795 as per Roen: https://www.rx7club.com/showpost.php...44&postcount=1
And if you want to compare it to a turbo model Rx7(which has an aluminum hood and i have a steel hood.) the Turbo weighs in at 2845-2900.
05-07-08, 07:46 PM
#330
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You must also know that an FC Tii weighs in more than an FD R1 or FD base, so the weights you posted don't really help this particular discussion, but might benefit the LS1 guys in the Second Gen section.
Kids...
1QWIK7 says it best though...
05-07-08, 07:53 PM
#331
Where was an FD mentioned in the Oringinal Post?
My response was to the guys who claim how much lighter the 13b is than the ls1.
my ls1 just happens to be in an FC.
Like i said, it weighs 2840 with a 40-50lb battery behind the passenger seat and about 10-15lbs of tools. Not to bad when it oringinally weighed about 2795 as per Roen: https://www.rx7club.com/showpost.php...44&postcount=1
And if you want to compare it to a turbo model Rx7(which has an aluminum hood and i have a steel hood.) the Turbo weighs in at 2845-2900.
My response was to the guys who claim how much lighter the 13b is than the ls1.
my ls1 just happens to be in an FC.
Like i said, it weighs 2840 with a 40-50lb battery behind the passenger seat and about 10-15lbs of tools. Not to bad when it oringinally weighed about 2795 as per Roen: https://www.rx7club.com/showpost.php...44&postcount=1
And if you want to compare it to a turbo model Rx7(which has an aluminum hood and i have a steel hood.) the Turbo weighs in at 2845-2900.
Its common sense dude.
He's talking about the 13B-REW which the FD came with. Why would he post about a 13B-REW in a 3RD GEN SPECIFIC section and be talking about the 13b generally?
Thats like mentioning, "my stock twin turbo FD beat a gto today".
Its like ok, we already know the FD is twin turbo, you dont need to hint us its twin turbo.
05-07-08, 08:05 PM
#332
You're FC underwent a huge transformation and had a 13B-REW installed, only to be removed and replaced with an LS1? The REW into FC swap is about $10K with engine, mounts, ECU, tuning, etc. and YOUR REW was pulled in favor of an American V8? If you thought the REW was the same as the 13BT, I would understand why you posted in the WRONG discussion, but you obviously know that REW was only available in the FD, not to be confused with the13B-RE, 13BT, or any other engine. You must also know that an FC Tii weighs in more than an FD R1 or FD base, so the weights you posted don't really help this particular discussion, but might benefit the LS1 guys in the Second Gen section. Kids...
1QWIK7 says it best though...
You must also know that an FC Tii weighs in more than an FD R1 or FD base, so the weights you posted don't really help this particular discussion, but might benefit the LS1 guys in the Second Gen section. Kids... 1QWIK7 says it best though...
Also, you skipped my question.
Answer: No Where.
Care to post the information to support your claims?
05-07-08, 08:06 PM
#333
Its common sense dude.
He's talking about the 13B-REW which the FD came with. Why would he post about a 13B-REW in a 3RD GEN SPECIFIC section and be talking about the 13b generally?
Thats like mentioning, "my stock twin turbo FD beat a gto today".
Its like ok, we already know the FD is twin turbo, you dont need to hint us its twin turbo.
He's talking about the 13B-REW which the FD came with. Why would he post about a 13B-REW in a 3RD GEN SPECIFIC section and be talking about the 13b generally?
Thats like mentioning, "my stock twin turbo FD beat a gto today".
Its like ok, we already know the FD is twin turbo, you dont need to hint us its twin turbo.
05-07-08, 09:03 PM
#334
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Oh really...
Why would you mention it if you didn't have it? 
An LSx FC has no relevance to this discussion, hence you have no reason to come in here and act like its the second gen section. When you have no valid information, don't get mad when people tell you GTFO... I'm done with this thread.
An LSx FC has no relevance to this discussion, hence you have no reason to come in here and act like its the second gen section. When you have no valid information, don't get mad when people tell you GTFO... I'm done with this thread.
05-07-08, 09:11 PM
#336
Oh really...
Why would you mention it if you didn't have it? An LSx FC has no relevance to this discussion, hence you have no reason to come in here and act like its the second gen section. When you have no valid information, don't get mad when people tell you GTFO... I'm done with this thread.
Why would you mention it if you didn't have it?
An LSx FC has no relevance to this discussion, hence you have no reason to come in here and act like its the second gen section. When you have no valid information, don't get mad when people tell you GTFO... I'm done with this thread.Because Rx7's have many many different engine swaps and this thread was about 13b-rew and ls1 engines, not FD's and FC's and volkswagons.
Again, since you lack the skillz i learned in the 3rd grade, i brought up my point to battle the whole, 13b is waaaayyyy lighter than the Lsx engine comments.
Its cool, i understand how rotards like you get pissed when something you truely honestly believe to be right is proven wrong. I'd be pissed too.
I'm not done with this thread until its locked!
05-08-08, 07:03 PM
#340
The LS1 itself is most likely lighter than the 13b in fully dressed trim. The difference is the T56 tranny is more than 50lbs heavier than the Mazda 5 speed. Hence the difference in total weight of the car and why the weight is shifted toward the rear.
T56 fragile? Wow! Maybe I will get a chance to take a picture of them side by side and you can see. The T56 was built to handle a ton of torque due to the nature of the engine(s) it backs up. The Mazda tranny is strong compared to other Mazda trannies...but I dont know of any Mazda torque monsters. Plus the Mazda tranny has quite a few of its own issues. 5th gear synchro being a big one.
Turbotommy:
How much power are you making? You really like to talk about 'killing' or 'destroying' an LSx FD but in what context is this taking place? Are you talking a freeway roll on race? A race around a road course for time? A standing quarter mile?
The funniest part of this is the fact that he is probably talking about a drag race or freeway roll. Most people whom swap an LSx are doing so to run it on a track (road course) more often and the argument you get from the Rotary guys is that you are killing the spirit of the car. I thought that was the spirit of the car? A road course terror? This whole argument is of which CAR is better is so pointless...
ON TOPIC:
I have argued engine for engine never saying what is best, but saying the facts. The LS1 is more efficient at producing XXX levels of horsepower. I dont think that is arguable. At XXX level of horsepower the LSx uses less fuel and takes less air to do so. You can measure that, it is quantifiable. The LSx is very similar in weight and space requirments to a TT 13b-rew... Therefore the LSx can fit in the same area, produce the same power, while weighing the same...and do so more efficiently.
Whether you want that or not is up to you. This is Ptrhahn's point, he doesn't want that and I do. I agree with him in a couple of points he had...but I have never once said the LSx is better or best. I have said it is more efficient. To me that is better, to YOU, maybe it isn't. But the whole point of this thread was not, whose car is faster... It was a comparison of the ENGINES! I have tried very hard to stay on topic but some of these posts in here are foolishness.
T56 fragile? Wow! Maybe I will get a chance to take a picture of them side by side and you can see. The T56 was built to handle a ton of torque due to the nature of the engine(s) it backs up. The Mazda tranny is strong compared to other Mazda trannies...but I dont know of any Mazda torque monsters. Plus the Mazda tranny has quite a few of its own issues. 5th gear synchro being a big one.
Turbotommy:
How much power are you making? You really like to talk about 'killing' or 'destroying' an LSx FD but in what context is this taking place? Are you talking a freeway roll on race? A race around a road course for time? A standing quarter mile?
The funniest part of this is the fact that he is probably talking about a drag race or freeway roll. Most people whom swap an LSx are doing so to run it on a track (road course) more often and the argument you get from the Rotary guys is that you are killing the spirit of the car. I thought that was the spirit of the car? A road course terror? This whole argument is of which CAR is better is so pointless...
ON TOPIC:
I have argued engine for engine never saying what is best, but saying the facts. The LS1 is more efficient at producing XXX levels of horsepower. I dont think that is arguable. At XXX level of horsepower the LSx uses less fuel and takes less air to do so. You can measure that, it is quantifiable. The LSx is very similar in weight and space requirments to a TT 13b-rew... Therefore the LSx can fit in the same area, produce the same power, while weighing the same...and do so more efficiently.
Whether you want that or not is up to you. This is Ptrhahn's point, he doesn't want that and I do. I agree with him in a couple of points he had...but I have never once said the LSx is better or best. I have said it is more efficient. To me that is better, to YOU, maybe it isn't. But the whole point of this thread was not, whose car is faster... It was a comparison of the ENGINES! I have tried very hard to stay on topic but some of these posts in here are foolishness.
05-19-08, 03:50 AM
#342
Rotary Freak
385 rwhp & 380 ft/lbs. with only Long tube headers, CAI, & a tune.Getting a Cam installed next week. It should put down 420-430 rwhp
Don't get me wrong, I loved my FD. I had it for ten great years (and three motors)…I had to part the car out since it wasn't running(again). I sold the shell to GNX7 who is building his second V8 powered FD with it.
Last edited by jpandes; 05-19-08 at 04:17 AM.
07-09-08, 11:19 PM
#343
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Reading comprehension FTMFW!!
Because Rx7's have many many different engine swaps and this thread was about 13b-rew and ls1 engines, not FD's and FC's and volkswagons.
Again, since you lack the skillz i learned in the 3rd grade, i brought up my point to battle the whole, 13b is waaaayyyy lighter than the Lsx engine comments.
Its cool, i understand how rotards like you get pissed when something you truely honestly believe to be right is proven wrong. I'd be pissed too.
I'm not done with this thread until its locked!
Because Rx7's have many many different engine swaps and this thread was about 13b-rew and ls1 engines, not FD's and FC's and volkswagons.
Again, since you lack the skillz i learned in the 3rd grade, i brought up my point to battle the whole, 13b is waaaayyyy lighter than the Lsx engine comments.
Its cool, i understand how rotards like you get pissed when something you truely honestly believe to be right is proven wrong. I'd be pissed too.
I'm not done with this thread until its locked!
07-10-08, 10:53 AM
#344
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Since when does HP/L make a car fast?
A 400hp car that's 6l is no faster/slower than a 400hp car that's 2.6l. (not taking into account torque, power-band, but assuming they're the same)
But you're right, the 13B-REW is a fine engine, it's just the parts attached to it.
But not to mention the LS2 and LS6 are far more fuel effecient..
Also the 13b isn't much lighter than the LSx engines. It's only 100lbs lighter.
But i wouldn't convert mine to an LSx engine unless i had two RX7s. Theres something that just feels nice about the rotary, and that's really what it mostly comes down to..
A 400hp car that's 6l is no faster/slower than a 400hp car that's 2.6l. (not taking into account torque, power-band, but assuming they're the same)
But you're right, the 13B-REW is a fine engine, it's just the parts attached to it.
But not to mention the LS2 and LS6 are far more fuel effecient..
Also the 13b isn't much lighter than the LSx engines. It's only 100lbs lighter.
But i wouldn't convert mine to an LSx engine unless i had two RX7s. Theres something that just feels nice about the rotary, and that's really what it mostly comes down to..
07-10-08, 01:19 PM
#345
The new aluminum housing rotary engines that are coming out soon are going to be larger displacement, but lower weight than their earlier rotary bretheren. You could also swap to aluminum side housings if you had the money to on the 13B's.
LS1's are great for Avg. HP/$ though.
LS1's are great for Avg. HP/$ though.
07-10-08, 04:40 PM
#346
Senior Member
Seriously what the F is up with the fc idiots coming into FD threads ALL the time. There needs to be some kinda law you pick what you own and u quit posting in the wrong category.
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