That's a great point, the 7 was costing equiv to around $44000 in todays money at the time, and rising. They wanted the cheap fun car to be the Miata, since it is highly successful and doesn't have extra R&D and emissions laws to worry about as much. Though I wouldn't be surprised if Ford had something to do with it, but not to the beat of "no competition with the Mustang". They had the SHO, stang, cougar, and Jag and Aston, plenty of inside competition across all levels.

 

The rotary is a Mazda legacy that eventually petered out due to low demand and high costs. There are cheaper ways to make 250 hp than a twin turbo rotary

 

In Europe the old tale of rotary unreliability already started much earlier with NSU...to a certain extent maybe righteously so. But after Mazda took over development the negative perception was already there to stay, hence why so few rotaries ever sold in Europe compared to the US or Japan.

Unfortunately the renesis just confirmed everyone’s doubts which lingered on from the NSU era.

To an average european the rotary is just a rotary, no distinction is made between an NSU, 13b or renesis...to them its just another Wankel.

 

apparently the Fox body was a 62 Falcon with McPherson struts, so there are stampings back to the 60's in it. Ford is a really unique beast, and the way that they are intertwined with America is just fascinating. Ford was where it was decided that "stockholder value" is the most important thing, they were also right at the front of the labor movement, etc etc
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_v._Ford_Motor_Co.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Overpass.


i should point out that i like the Rx8 too, the biggest problem for me was just the gas mileage, everything else was good (ive had 3 of them). i just can't help thinking it would have gone from good to great if it was ~600lbs lighter

 

That's crazy it goes all the way back to the 60's (before the first Mustang even came out).

Ford is definitely an interesting case. You don't hear shareholder primacy come up in conversation super often. I've read cases about it before, but I was not aware that Ford was the case where it became established. They definitely were not the last.

I've never worked for Ford, but I've definitely heard stories from Ford corporate employees that it isn't always the nicest place to work. I think someone told me before that if you drove a non Ford car you had to park in some remote lot, and there was always a lot of vandalization in that lot from other employees. Who knows how true that is though.

I get it. I'm not sure how much better the mileage would have been if it was a little lighter, I think they just really strung that motor out to make the numbers it makes. Going from a NC Miata to the 8 was a bit of a mpg shock, but before the Miata I drove Mustangs so it was just business back to normal at the gas pump for me I guess. The 8 does a bit better on long stretches of empty highway, but otherwise the fuel economy is amusingly close to my SN95's.

I will say the 8 gets a lot more looks and interest from passengers/passerby's that aren't necessarily car people. Less attention than the 7 gets for sure, but still more than most cars I have owned.

 

I've owned Rx7s since 1987. Always had one and still do. They have given me next to zero problems because I maintain and drive them like you are suppose to. thanks to this forum.

 

i've heard that too, and its funny because the flat rock plant used to make Mazda's and Fords (626/Mx6/Probe/Mazda6 and i think the Ranger/B trucks too), so they would vandalize the cars that they made? that was the other thing about Ford, there is usually some twist that makes whatever you're looking at funny/crazy.

For instance, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fordl%C3%A2ndia
or the best one is the going out of business plan, notice Ford went under in 2006, so they didn't need to take government money in 2008... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Way_Forward

lol, well 220hp/2200lbs would be awesome enough that i wouldn't have cared about mileage...

 

FYI the RX-8 isn't that heavy all things considered - just over 3000 pounds, like 3,064 for a manual trans. Considering it has 2 more seats and back doors, 200 pounds more than the FD (which is a TINY car too) is doing pretty good.

They did a lot of the same weight savings they used in the FD - aluminum hood, rear doors are aluminum, light seats. Also has a mostly plastic intake manifold which is CRAZY light.

Hoping to have mine running this weekend, motor is all built and long block assembled on the stand.

Dale

 

Do you also have an RX-8?

 

All the modern electronics/additional wiring and the very comprehensive airbag system also adds weight.

I don't know all the tricks they did to keep the weight down, but I do know that at least mine has a carbon fiber driveshaft from the factory as well. The gas tank is also a lower capacity than my FDs is, which I am sure also contributes to the wet weight.

You gotta remember the 8 also has a fantastic crash safety rating. I think it was one of the only cars at the time that got 5 stars for rollovers. Whether or not Mazda had to spend some extra pounds to achieve that I am not sure. If they did, I'd say it was worth it.

 

I get your point, but I love your emphasis on them being tiny cars: when I got my FD home and next to my Miata, it really made the FD visually HUGE by comparison. The numbers just didn't really do justice to the difference side by side.

 

I bought an RX-8 about a month and a half ago for $800 not running. Never had one before, been having a lot of fun fixing it up. Motor was DONE, I rebuilt it and I'm hoping to daily drive it for a while. Been driving an '05 Prius as a daily for 6 years now, super reliable and cheap to own car but BO-RING to drive, I'm wanting something more fun for a daily.

Anyhow, to try and put this thread back on topic....

I think Mazda had an opportunity to make the RX-8 as reliable if not more so than the old NA FC's - if you could get 200,000 out of an engine, that would be a good place to be. They did do an extended warranty at one point - 10 years or 100,000 miles they would replace the engine as a good will measure. Really wish I could have found an RX-8 cheap with a bad engine during that time, that would have been a good flip .

All that said, Mazda did fix some of the engine issues with the Series 2 RX-8 that the Series 1 cars had problems with - more oil injection squirters was a big one. But the damage was done and sales weren't great on the S2's.

The FD had a number of things stacked against it for the reputation - a dealer service network that was untrained in working on the car, people modifying them without being able to tune the engines much if at all, and Mazda doing everything they could to get the car to pass US emissions. The car running so damn hot water temp-wise and the precat is a prime source for a LOT of engine failures. Then you also had people bringing their cars in with twin turbo problems and dealers swapping out whole turbos and engines because they didn't have the knowledge to troubleshoot the problem.

Remember too that the '90s were the early days of the internet - the forum didn't exist and really the only online resource for a lot of owners was the old RX-7 email list (I was on it back in the day). But it was not easy to find out about the list and most owners had no clue about it. Imagine owning an FD in an information vacuum - pretty much the only information available was magazines like Turbo and shops like Mazdatrix where you could mail-order a catalog from. You couldn't just Google the symptoms or hop on the forum.

I think it also didn't help things that Mazda didn't give more headroom on the stock ECU for modification. Most of the blown motors was from running more boost and the stock ECU either running lean or the timing being way off. If they would have just made the stock ECU go dumb rich with retarded timing at more than 10psi there would have been a lot of engines still in one piece.

Dale

 

Agreed, the 93-95 FD is really ecu limited. 8 bit was fast back then, but it has a hard time keeping up with the turbos! my friend did an FD with the full 99 280ps spec engine and ecu, and it is WAY better
that being said under warranty most of the engines died from overheating, you need to mod the car to break an apex seal

 

It's really a shame because RX-8's are such amazing cars to drive. If I were speaking honestly, in almost every way they're superior to an FD except for looks. The handling, practicality, high revving NA rotary are all amazing. Clarkson was spot on in his review of them. I know Mazda had to do everything it could to pass emissions with them, but it really should've been the revival of the original RX-7 in terms of popularity.

That being said, even if rotary engines are unreliable, it's worth it. Once you rev one out on the track it's hard to go back.

 

the Rx8 sold pretty well actually, 266,000 globally, vs the FD's 50,000.

the 1st gen was kind of a surprise hit, Mazda was expecting to sell 5,000 units globally a month, but they ended up selling 5,000 a month just in the US...

 

Almost forgot about my 02 .mustang gt. At 155000 miles it blew a spark plug right out of its threads such caused the engine to blow. Very well documented how the ford head on the 4.6 had very little threads to hold the plugs in. All cars have certain engineering flaws and the fd is no different. That said the motor was never a flaw and reliability mods cures all those engineering flaws. I been reading a lot about the rx8 engine in this thread and I believe that a thicker oil and premixing solves the renesis engine problems. Back to the fd. I dont know of any turbo cars that have engines lasting 200k plus. That does not even include those who run high boost into the engines.

 

The foxbody was an Audi Chassis that Ford procured and used in development of what would be the Fox4 chassis(all chassis up to 2004 before the S197 chassis). The FB/FC shares many of the chassis items and parts between the Fox and FB/FC share the same OE so many will cross pollinate.

It was meant to be a "world chassis" so that Ford could tweak into different global markets like Europe, Asia, and Australia. The undercarriage of the FC is nearly identical to the fox4 and so many of the engineering layouts are similar or exactly the same. The FC IRS for instance is rather similar to the Fox4 IRS and is a good reason why they are used as a relatively simple upgrade and with the similarities in the chassis I would bet the whole IRS and Subframe would bolt in with a few minor modifications. A LOT of cars were built on the chassis

I have built a ton of foxes and mustangs and can tell you there are no early 60's stampings on the cars. You're definitely right about the intrigue of Ford though. They have been a heavy hand in the US government and are credited with nearly killing the train industry completely.

I was just passing through with some info I have that fascinated me about the RX7/Mustang history that I figured I'd pass along

 

Note I'm an original owner. First engine went 125,000 miles. The second only 30,000 BUT did a lot of racing at Mid-Ohio, Nelson Ledges, and Putnam Park. The current (third engine) is now at 150,000 miles and running good. Maybe the trick is to let the car warm up until it reaches full temperature before driving.

 

05 Nissan pathfinder misfire and the coils have to be replaced. 85 bucks a piece for coils. This does not include labor because I am doing them. 85×6=510. Rx7 coils are much cheaper and much easier to do. This is what confuses me when people complain about the reliability of these cars or the cost to maintain them.

 

undercover for a 2009 Audi A8 (4E0 825 195) is $716, the FD (FD01-56-1B0C) is $260. granted the FD part isn't wall to wall carpeted in a soothing gray with stainless steel accents....

 

my friend is building an S2000 race car, and he texted me all excited because he could buy a new short block for $6200 (and you need it too, its not rebuildable) but you can buy the entire 13B for $5000, or less
list price on the Honda is $8068, list price on the FD engine is $7070

 

I replaced my undertray with a LRB undertray. It cost me 175 and is not made of plastic. It was very well made and worth the money.

 

I’m going to put on my flame proof suit for this one but seriously I just can’t resist.

you’re tired of hearing people say they are unreliable but yours blew up because it was low on gas?? Doesn’t that seem a bit I don’t know. Uh. Unreliable??

I’ve had rotaries for 25 years, put over 100k daily driven miles on them without any break down issue (mostly non modded miles).

I own 10 sports cars right now and have owned over 40. Never blew one up with low gas. My 87 v6 Canaro used to kind of halt for a bit when I turned when it was low on gas but it didn’t blow the motor. I hate to break it to you but a car that leans out and needs a rebuild is inherently unreliable.

Having nearly twice the RWHP from stock will also make it unreliable.

but I do have (4) FDs unreliable and all.

embrace that others think they are unreliable. If you can keep it running especially heavily juiced up then you’re just that much better of an owner or mechanic.

people think Ferraris are unreliable too.

 

firstly, i think we need to separate reliability and durability. my old Mercedes 300SEL 3.5 was durable, 167,000 miles on the original engine and transmission, however it was unreliable, i had a stack of invoices where it was towed into the shop for various things. the FD is reliable, it always starts, but it is not durable...

second i looked into the 308 Ferrari's and i like it, its built like a race car, and it actually looks like everything is easy to get to. on the minus side, everything is adjustable, so getting it all happy would be a big job.

third, i've enjoyed this guy, his car is the one step forward two steps back that my projects seem to do; i can relate
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEr...1owxI31N6WZmIA

 

After owing and working on rotary stuff for years, it just goes with the territory. Ive lost count how many times I’ve been approached in a parking lot, car meet or the gym and I just wait for the inevitable question ~ “How many motors ya replaced?” I just reply with a dead straight face ~ “ I’ve lost count”. I learned long ago you can’t fight all the idiots in the world let alone educate someone who’s regurgitating inaccurate information. I’ve spent half my life racing hydroplanes and motorcycles, I can tell you all high performance stuff comes with its quirks, it’s all about what kind of quirks you’re into.


~ GW