mp5

iTrader: (3)

Can you imagine if you were a Jaguar E type fan how long you had to wait to get a decent replacement?
Not the XJS BTW.

Natey

iTrader: (19)

We don't have to imagine. I have a feeling we're ALL E-Type fans. It's one of the top 3 best looking cars ever, IMO, and you've got a great point.

The RX-8 WAS the new RX-7. There will never be another FD. There will never be another E-Type, a 365sc or even a Datsun 510 either.

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

The thing about the Alfa 4C that will grab the attention of the masses is as you say its exotic nature. CF tub, aluminum for the rest and its Italian heritage.

The thing about the Alfa 4C that will grab the enthusiasts attention is potential.

Weight-
Although the $69k fully loaded "Launch Edition" US version tested was 2,446Lbs a $55K US base model will weigh somewhat less and they only added 94Lbs of CF to the tub on the US one so it is in striking distance of 2,100lbs modified.

Power-
It has a 1.75L turbo 4. Every enthusiast knows the potential of factory turbo cars to make easy power. The very worst examples of factory turbo cars (Mazdaspeed 3 and Subaru EJ) are still very popular with the aftermarket segment where they can somewhat reliably pack on another 100hp to the wheels. The very best factory turbo fours come from the factory with warranty in special models with over 100hp more to the wheels (FQ400 Evos).

Country of manufacture-
Being of Italian origin indirectly appeals even to the enthusiast as Italians have their pride when it comes to automobiles. We are basically assured hotted up factory models as a response to the GT4 Cayman, etc.

Contrast this to Mazda steadfastly refusing to add any power to the RX-8 even for the S2 models as it has done for other RX models. Both the Western and Japanese press continuously lambasted the RX-8 for lack of power and asked Mazda for a more powerful model.

It seems to me the Alfa 4C trades on exactly what the FD RX-7 has been trading on since 1996 when the C5 'Vette made the FD's stock performance irrelevant-

Potential

Natey

iTrader: (19)

There's this, too:

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

Advertising?

Just kidding, that is exactly what I was talking about. Alfa 4C just equaled Cayman S times on Nurburgring and Porsche announced the Cayman GT4 which will destroy that time.

Then 4C will be slower than Cayman (people will compare top model despite $$- after all no one is going to say 4C is as fast as Audi R8 *V8* because the V10 model exists) and Alfa will have to respond with a hotted up 4C.

Mazderati

iTrader: (3)

The issue with a car sized like the Elise or 4C is the small cabin. I'd need one for each foot.

MisterX

What happened to the 4C coming in around 2100 pounds? Adding (very) lightweight carbon fiber to the structure of the U.S. version couldn't possibly have added almost 400 pounds?!

A funny note on the Alfa: if they'd yank out the 4 banger, along with associated turbo & intercooler, they could probably come close to matching the 2100 lb by swapping a *gasp* REnesis.

Donovan

I don't think we're going to see anything. The car the Top Gear burned up was kind of the last gasp I feel, and fittingly it burned to the ground. If Mazda had any rotary anything up their sleeve, I'd thing they would be at least trying to build some excitement or bring attention to it, rather than say, "Nope, there's nothing going on". They aren't racing anything, they aren't promoting anything. They wouldn't even have to try to hide it as no other car manufacturer has anything rotary. The skyactive thing is their new deal I'm afraid.

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

What happened to the 4C coming in around 2100 pounds? Adding (very) lightweight carbon fiber to the structure of the U.S. version couldn't possibly have added almost 400 pounds?!

A funny note on the Alfa: if they'd yank out the 4 banger, along with associated turbo & intercooler, they could probably come close to matching the 2100 lb by swapping a *gasp* REnesis.

The Euro base model Alfa comes in just under 2,000Lbs.

The 2,446lb US one tested was the "Launch Edition" which they will cram down the throats of the first eager US buyers to maximize profit and they are completely fully optioned.

I believe I read the lightest US spec 4C is rumored to be ~2,200Lbs because they had to add 94lbs to the carbon tub, doors reinforced with airbags, no doubt 5mph bumpers, etc etc.

An all aluminum turbo 1.7l 4cyl isn't very heavy and it actually has torque.

Putting the Renesis in anything is a tragedy and in this case would be a wash in weight as it would involve its own heavier exhaust (top model 4C doesn't even have a muffler), heavier radiator/fluid capacity, oil cooler and a much bigger gas tank.

rx7 SE

iTrader: (5)

Is a short block renesis heavier than the short block 1.7l in the Alfa?

mp5

iTrader: (3)

A few musings...Rotary Power and the RX7 are Mazdas halo and identity,so really just on that fact alone they need to build it.
Audis Ur Quattro ads still sell Audis 20 years on.

You can go without a halo car but eventually you will need to rekindle the fire,insert Toyota and Supra here.

So the business case is probably the only solid argument against producing a new 7 ?

We know Toyota is number one or two in worldwide sales volume and Mazda is not so the accountants may have a case there,given the recalls with the RX8 that would keep anyone up at night second guessing themselves.
I think thats where we are right now,probably everyone WANTS to build but you have to watch the store ,I,m hoping that something is in the works and they are having to get the engineering costs right with the power and emissions.
I think someone needs to do a Henry Ford and lock the engineers in a room and build the V8,they had a tough time but eventually they succeeded.Hopefully Mazda will win out too.

Fritz Flynn

iTrader: (263)

I don't see the 4c doing well

It's priced like an exige and the performance isn't as good. It's not as attractive and it's basically just another toy car so it's not going to fly in the US.

Which would you rather have a proven nice looking cayman S/PORSCHE or some little toy car alpha?

mp5

iTrader: (3)

If there is room in the market for a "little toy car" what could Mazda do with that eh?

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

but they are! they have some skyaktiv prototype racer, and then the Mazda 6's have raced everywhere, its just not very interesting because they are diesels. not to mention the NC miatae, which is a car nobody likes, but has a decent racing pedigree at this point.

Fritz Flynn

iTrader: (263)

I don't think mazda should do anything with that

I don't want mazda to compete against the 4c I want them to build another kick *** car not a toy.

I see two camps in this thread. There's the build an S2k type RX7 and there's the build a GT3 type RX7. I'm clearly in the GT3 camp otherwise why bother because you are either moving sideways or backwards which after 25 years isn't the direction the next RX7 move in.

mp5

iTrader: (3)

^ DuH

rx7 SE

iTrader: (5)

+1

Let's not forget that the FD could match and beat Godzilla (R32-R34 GTR) during the 90's and early 00's. It would only seem fair that if it were to be released again as an FD successor...it would have to compete with the R35. It would take something special with 400+ hp and under 3000 lbs to do that with OEM equipment.

P.S. Mazda's toy car is the Miata, the RX models have no business being there.

Donovan

I don't think Mazda would put out anything that would remotely compete with the MX5. So toy car is out. Light, tossable, cheap, hot but not too hot car is out. They also don't have Ford's money and although they are no longer on the ropes, they are making a little money with their Skyactive cars and didn't do great with the RX8. They don't have the money or the market position to manufacture something that won't make money or sell well such as a RX7+ with for instance that competes with the cars we want it to.

djseven

iTrader: (56)

All or nothing, that is what the FD was in 92. Anything less, no thanks.

Natey

iTrader: (19)

Pretty much.

8.04 is pretty crazy though. Especially for a sub 300hp 4 cylinder street car.

FWIW, I learned how to drive in my moms bulletproof Alfa Spider that never left her stuck, even though it did custody-battle laps up and down the California coast when I was a kid. That car had 200+ thousand miles on it, easy.
Not every Alfa is problematic.

Also, I have a feeling that IF Mazda rethunk an FD type of car, it would most likely compete with the LF-A and new NSX..which are both completely out of this guy's price range.

Fritz Flynn

iTrader: (263)

Big difference between 2008 and 2014 (lotus ran a 7.53)

The little 4c is impressive but I'd much rather own the lotus

http://www.fastcar-tube.com/videogal...st-sport-auto/

Fritz Flynn

iTrader: (263)

I hear you. This is a great time to discuss cars. So many cool cars available.

The biggest players in the 50 and up market are clearly the GT500, Z28, LT1 and of course the corvette.

The GT500 will be one hell of a deal. 600 plus HP for 55k.

The next RX7 does need to compete with these heavy weights or it will not sell very well. Which is just one more reason the pessimist in me says they won't build it because they can't afford another blunder.

Nissan is in the same boat because the 370z it's just not keeping up.

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

You know whats impressive is the 4C is on 220utqg street tires on its 1st year out and the Exige S is on 60utqg DOT-Rs and the chassis has 15 years of development.

The Cayman S target is nicely comparable because it is on the same tires as the 4C- you can bet the Cayman GT4 was on 80utqg DOT-Rs like the other Porsche GT series cars.

Which brings me to the bagging on the Porsche GT3 (if that is possible, it is a great car.)

The GT3 is about maxed out in factory trim. You can strip it further to a race car or turbo it, but then might as well get a GT2 imo.

Its a case of Porsche spending a whole lot of time and money on a so so chassis (heavy, strut front end, rear engine) to make it really fast.

Its like if Mazda pigheadedly kept developing the FC chassis instead of moving to the FD or if Mazda stretched the FD chassis into the RX-8 4 door instead of developing the improved FE chassis.

56sec Tuned FDs (and even FCs) on similar DOT-R tires are much faster than stock Porsche GT3s (104sec) or GT2s (103sec) on the Tsukuba circuit. They are faster than a 997GT3 Cup car on its Michelin full slicks (57sec).

53sec Revolution FD doesn't count as its basically tube frame imo.

Now even Revolution's 240hp Renesis RX-8 on $140 Federal street tires is as faster than a stock Porsche GT3 on its 80utqg DOT-Rs on Tsukuba clocking a 103sec.

The Porsche's represent a limited chassis with almost unlimited development right from Porsche. Not my ideal, but very impressive for what they are working with.

Fritz Flynn

iTrader: (263)

I wish mazda had continued to develop the FD which actually had a long run in Japan but they could have continued with that model making small changes forever. It's that good.

The reason people love the GT3/911 is because of the commitment and refinement that's poured into it. I don't like rebuilding my cars from scratch which is what you have to do with the FD in order to run a fast reliable lap. The GT3 you just put gas in it

Sounds like the GT3 needs a better driver if a 240 HP rx8 is beating it. It has much bigger tires, much greater down force and a huge power to weight advantage. Something isn't adding up here.

mp5

iTrader: (3)

20b would be great and a good choice to step up to the plate....if they are logical..but I can't see it.