HiWire

fmzambon: My daily driver is a plastic body 2001 Saturn SC2 that weighs about 2,500 lbs. Larger panel gaps (for heat expansion) were a slight disadvantage for some prospective buyers, but overall the car has held up very well after thirteen years, even after a few accidents. The steel spaceframe is very strong and only the body panels needed to be replaced after a collision (rear quarter panel and bumper).

ZDan: 2,850 lbs. did seem kind of low... maybe that is completely dry (without transmission fluid, etc.) and no carpet, insulation, sound system, etc. Your figure sounds closer to the truth.

What do you guys think about the Mazda RX-01 concept that was shown in 1995? It seems to be the kind of car we were asking for:
http://www.diseno-art.com/encycloped...zda_rx-01.html

ptrhahn

iTrader: (9)

Well, the Corvette might not be at the target weight we're thinking of, but it's also built to be a car that would come with over 600 hp, stock.

The other example is the Elise, which as the other end of the spectrum and built on an extruded aluminum frame.

It's true, you're not going to save 1,000 lbs this way. But then again, we know from the FD development, weight savings is a game of increments all over the car that add up (or down as the case may be). Shorter spark plug wires anyone?

I think in the case of a rotary sports car, Mazda needs to be thinking REALLY light. Like light as a differentiator. BRZ territory isn't going to do it.

I think it's A., a way to produce something that isn't a wanna be Corvette, and B., take advantage of rotary strengths like packaging and free, smooth revving, while C., minimizing the weaknesses in torque and gas mileage.

Plainly put, if you're not going to spend development bucks on a 350-400 hp rotary, then spend it elsewhere on performance.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

i'm guessing mazda probably feels like the real underdog. even large displacement piston engines are getting well over the miles per gallon of a naturally aspirated 2 rotor engine. for mazda to compete they would have to severely upgrade the engine size and rotor count or force induct it once again and live with the penalties associated with that.

no matter what people will notice the lacking power output and the increased fuel consumption. they better build a turbo 3 rotor with direct injection to even have a chance if they wanted to compete with today's sports cars.

a direct injection, turbocharged 24X theoretically is their best bet if they want to aim for that market. whether they want to roll the dice on it or not, i wouldn't put my money on it because you probably already have an underlying idea of why they chose the RX8 platform and why it was the last rotary car produced. even though sales were not horrible, the warranty claims probably nearly set them on fire.

Sgtblue

iTrader: (16)

^Almost exactly my thoughts. The only caveat is if MAZDA started a separate upscale line like LEXUS, ACURA etc. Or maybe performance line like AMG. Haven't read all the thread pages, but I wonder how that effects their CAFE numbers...if at all.

HiWire

Mazda had separate Autozam, Ẽfini, and Eunos marques in Japan. Also, they planned to release a line called Amati that would be an upscale competitor to Lexus, Infiniti, and Acura.

I think Mazda is too small to release a separate lineup, but improving the build quality and luxury of their premium models would be a step in the right direction. Their CAFE numbers should be decent now because of SkyActiv... if they could mix light weight, reasonable power, and reliability, the market would respond positively. The Mazda3 is one of Canada's best selling cars (we seem to prefer smaller cars here).

Unfortunately, there are a lot of Mazda and Ford group products on this list: Yahoo!

I was daydreaming about getting a Mazdaspeed 6 if I started a family someday. It sure didn't sell well when it was available – maybe the 6-speed manual was a deal-killer for some buyers.

ptrhahn

iTrader: (9)

Is a "luxury" Mazda brand still necessary/relevant when you have $100k Chevys and Nissans? Heck, there's a $60k Hyundai on the market. Kia's releasing a luxury car in 2015.

ptrhahn

iTrader: (9)

"Engine issues" in two of the three Mazdas, none of them rotaries. What does that tell you?

HiWire

Mazda hasn't been particularly cutting-edge in their piston engine development (the Miller cycle engine in the Millenia might be an exception), but I like where they're going with SkyActiv.

Overall, Mazda has trailed the other Japanese auto makers in reliability. That is something they really have to address if they want to grow their market share.

If Mazda released a new Cosmo or Millenia (Mazda9?), for example, I wouldn't care if it had a Mazda badge, as long as it was well built and it performed the way an upmarket grand tourer should.

MisterX

I tried finding a diagram that was floated around a couple of years ago showing a RX-8 and 350Z with their corresponding engine sizes and how the rotary's dimensions are dwarfed by the VQ. Now, it's true the NSX's block may be slightly smaller than the Z's, but a little beer-keg-size 13b is no doubt lighter than a 3.0 or 3.2L Honda, even though its block is mainly cast iron.

Also, I have a hard time believing your claims of the all-aluminum unibody -- which Honda claims weighs 40% less than a steel one -- is actually heavier than the FD's. I don't have any real numbers to support my guess, but then neither do you.

Fritz Flynn

iTrader: (263)

The viper is a little more than a skateboard hehe

Any car making 400 plus HP has to be fairly heavy just to create and support the power.

Wheels
tires
driveline
chassis (wide and long)
brakes
cooling
Power plant
etc.....

The lotus is already a nervous twitchy little thing put 400 HP at the wheels and you'll really have fun trying to stay ahead of what it's going to do next.

I agree there's a market for a 2600lb 400 HP light weight sports car but mazda isn't going to fill that void.

Relatively speaking the corvette is a light weight car. 460 HP at 3300lbs is no joke especially when the car cost 60k.

The Z06 is going to be one of the fastest and lightest per HP cars ever made so give credit where it's do. Go GM! 5 to 1 HP

Congrats to Mazda for there 2200 pound 200 HP miata coming out (reality more like 2400 pound 150 HP LOL) YAWN!!!!!

I suspect one day I will have a v8 in my car and my car will be a vette

Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

Fritz Flynn

iTrader: (263)

Exactly, Randy Pobst would have a hard time trying to run a smooth consistent lap in that thing LOL

wolf_9782

sports cars these days are pretty expensive when you buy them brand new. of course that is nothing new, they've always been "pay to play". i enjoy readin about the new 'vette and the viper but at the same time im thinkin that ill never own one lol. the new zo6 is surely gonna be north of 70k and the viper too. the price of these cars is pretty high, a reason why im always gonna be stuck with my FD and ill never be in the seat of a brand new sports car. not like i need another anyhow.

still, i think if mazda were to make another rotary car and if they need sales...goin the route of the vette or a super car is definitely not the path to take. price tag alone is a huge barrier of entry for many enthusiasts and the younger crowd is already full of cheapskates as it is. cmon, they dont even get coilover suspension for the cars. they just cut and heat the springs.

Brent Dalton

iTrader: (31)

I'd love to have a current day/updated FD. I'd expect it would be a comparable price to the Corvette and M3 type cars. The car that looks amazing, handles amazing, and has amazing power through that little rotary engine we all love so much. You know... the car that leaves people scratching their head as you drive past saying, "what is that? Looks like a super car, but that doesn't sound like a V8... but man, it was fast!"

It really blows my mind how right Mazda got the chassis 20 years ago. For anyone that has driven an RX-8, Mazda improved our design even more. Not talking looks or engine of the RX-8, just the suspension/chassis. What else blows my mind is, that 20 years later, there are only a handful of cars that are on the same page.

Like many have mentioned, the Corvette is one of those that is on the same page. I spent a long time hating the Corvette over the years. If you start to look at all of the details though, it's pretty amazing. Like the OEM Titanium exhaust that came on the 2001+ C5Z's, super lightweight wheels... oh, and the fact that you get almost 30mpg on the highway in a car that has 400hp. It really is a total package car. I'm not in love with the rear leaf springs, but corvette has been making it work for years. It's also not hard to convert to coil springs, but no one seems to have any better results. Kind of a wash. I also like that they are made in America, engines hand built in Detroit.

I recently picked up a 2011 M3. I've had some different cars over the years and like to expand my horizons. When I started looking a few months ago, I looked at anything that might catch my attention. Anything from the FR-S/BRZ, STI, and Jetta to the Cayman S, M3, and C6Z/C7 Corvettes. I ended up with the M3 as I wanted a balanced car in the sense that I can drive it on the street everyday and be comfortable, while still being fun to drive. I can drive it across the country comfortably with room for luggage (you can do this with the corvette, as I have, and average 30mpg the whole way). I can also take it to the track or AutoX and boogie as well. Like my FD? ... no. Nothing will ever feel as raw and fun as a well set up FD on track (write that down with a pen for those taking notes). But the M3 is good all around. It has great technology and is good all around. It has the DCT(double clutch transmission) which is the manual transmission that shifts automatically.. which is badass btw. It has launch control. It has a nice throaty 4.0 liter V8. Going back to my original point. It handles good, but it is a Macpherson strut design. This really just leaves me scratching my head. The BMW looks have never done it for me either. It looks like a sporty coupe or sedan... not a sports car. In my so humble opinion, a sports car should look the part. No one is going to second guess the intent behind a Porsche 997 or a C6Z. They SCREAM aggressive. So did the FD. A sports car also should be RWD and only have 2 seats (you'll notice the M3 and RX-8 are both 2 strike offenders at this point). It all really depends on what you are looking for.

What am I looking for? Updated looks that leave you staring the garage for hours (maybe revamp the FD a little, no need to reinvent the wheel), updated suspension (which mazda has already), and an engine/drivetrain in the 7:1 ratio. I'd be even happier if it was a rotary. I'd be a buyer at that point. Until then, I'll just be aimlessly wondering the streets for cars to try and fill a void.

With all of my rambling, it's going to be a smooth transition to senile for me.

Fritz Flynn

iTrader: (263)

Yep, that's it in a nut shell. To me there just isn't a sports car that does it for me more than the FD and I've tried the cayman and GT3.

Congrats again on the m3 that's the only sedan I'd own.

PS Don't give me that RX8 $hit. Good chassis, fall asleep slow car (a slightly modded ITS spec miata would give a full raced prepped RX8 trouble) and you sit too far forward, night and day driving exp vs FD but very similar to SM car, once again YAWN.

Brent Dalton

iTrader: (31)

Oh yeah, you and I both know the RX8 has some major things that we don't like. Just talking strictly suspension components though. It'd be nice to get the longer RX8 control arms.

PS. Thanks for the congrats on the M3. I have the 2 door M3. I can't roll in a 4 door yet ... unless it's my ol' red... the D-O-D-G-E. 225k miles on the cummins now and still running like a top!

ptrhahn

iTrader: (9)

^^^

3rd'd. I don't know if people (even owners) get just how good the FD chassis (still) really is. Some of the most fun you can have with one is when people stop by your pit at the track to try and figure out where the rocket motor or fan assisted ground effects are hidden.

And the looks I'd have to say are 2nd only to the 911 in terms of a timeless design. C5 Corvette's for instance, already look a little tired in comparison, and the modern stuff feels very flavor-of-the-month and over the top Hot Wheels car-ish. I still stare at mine in the garage.

Some little BRZ-like piece of **** isn't going to measure up.

Brent Dalton

iTrader: (31)

Well said Pete. I've been tearing into my VR FD the last couple of months as I've had time. I caught myself standing in the garage staring at it last night. I can still tell you all of my FD benchmarks. The first one I saw, the first time one blew past me (I was in a Z32 300zx), first drive, etc, etc, etc... that's an impression.

estevan62274

iTrader: (32)

Flynn, a REW swapped RX-8 is a sweet car. It can actually move out of its own way
Combine that with great suspension and brakes... not completely... YAWM
I'd love to let you rip it around the track and then you give me your thoughts.



And yes I know she's not as sexy looking as a FD

.

HiWire

I forgot that I actually don't care about the BMW M4.

The M2, on the other hand, could have some potential: BMW M235i Coupe review, specs and prices

Personally, I'd prefer that Mazda come up with something faster than an FD, rather than a return to the FB formula. However, I probably wouldn't be able to afford a new rotary supercar.

MissionRx7

I hope Mazda can get some good hp out of the new engine because as mention on this thread to competition is tough. I'm sure Mazda will get the chassis right. I remember reading about before they started development of the FD Mazda sent their engineers to racing school. I know someone mention the NSX engine but it's a very pricey the bare block cost $20k. You can get at least 3 LS complete engines for that with more torque & hp.

Fritz Flynn

iTrader: (263)

It's all relative and no, not a complete yawn, but after driving a 2600 lb 350 rwhp track prepped FD you won't exactly get out of the RX8 and think, wow that was awesome, more like not too shabby.

I was talking to someone about driving the RX8 race car at VIR and I think it runs 2.12s (might of been 2.14s but being generous) and he was braking at the 2 marker (probably going 130 or so before hitting the brakes). I'm going close to 150 and brake at the 4 (at 130 it would be a little jab at the 1.5 marker . In Rx7 130 down to 120 up the esses rx8 120 down to 110 up the esses etc...etc.. all around the track. I'm sitting lower closer to the rear axle running laps that are 10 seconds faster....... see what I'm saying.

Would love to get behind the wheel of an ex Patrick Dempsey RX8 though

Nothing is a sexy as the FD

Reno_NVFD

iTrader: (2)

Don't know if someone posted this up but it is a fairly recent article. Probably just more smoke though.



http://m.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/mazda-rx-7-return-2016

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

the miller cycle millenia (the S model), is the most complex and expensive car to repair in the history of the automobile. it also makes the FD engine bay look spacious.

the S engines were actually pretty good, but just for instance, if it needs the valve covers resealed, it is 24 hours of labor, and there is an $800 bag of seals and gaskets that you get to buy as well.

the $7000 supercharger comes off, and it doesn't always survive the trip from engine to workbench and back.

i agree, i STILL like the FD, it still looks good too. after going to rennfest and looking at 5000, 911's, its still iconic, but i really don't like them (most people mod them wrong too)

and i do agree the C5 vette looks like its from the 90's, and the BRZ is already boring

yep me too! it was a yellow R1, which is a good way to start

Fritz Flynn

iTrader: (263)

YEP

I was at a 3 on 3 basketball tourney in DC and we were walking through the garage at the Ritz and I saw a black FD and said to my buddies I will own that car, took about 5 years for me to break the piggie