The RX-7 confirmed to be in the pipeline for 2017---RX-Vision Unveil!!
03-23-15, 10:18 AM
#2526
Well, advances in traction control and dynamic stability control make it possible for manufacturers to give the untrained masses a car with lots of power now.
It is part of the reason Mazda was able to make the RX-8 handle better than the FD RX-7, taking out much of the understeer, the toe control stability bushings and high polar moment of inertia. The other reason was of course the RX-8 complete lack of torque.
Then Mazda did us a huge favor letting us put the RX-8 into DSC malfunction mode where it goes offline while covering there *** (hey, the malfunction light was on you can't sue us).
I agree that what the the RX-8 always needed was ~450hp. Rotary or not I don't care.
I would still rather have a 350hp 2,200lb car so maybe I just buy a Fiat MX-5 or Alfa C4.
That 1.4l turbo Fiat engine from 500 Abarth that will go into the MX-5 Fiat 124 does 200rwhp/rwtq with intake and ECU reflash. I am sure 300rwhp will be a turbo swap away.
It is part of the reason Mazda was able to make the RX-8 handle better than the FD RX-7, taking out much of the understeer, the toe control stability bushings and high polar moment of inertia. The other reason was of course the RX-8 complete lack of torque.
Then Mazda did us a huge favor letting us put the RX-8 into DSC malfunction mode where it goes offline while covering there *** (hey, the malfunction light was on you can't sue us).
I agree that what the the RX-8 always needed was ~450hp. Rotary or not I don't care.
I would still rather have a 350hp 2,200lb car so maybe I just buy a Fiat MX-5 or Alfa C4.
That 1.4l turbo Fiat engine from 500 Abarth that will go into the MX-5 Fiat 124 does 200rwhp/rwtq with intake and ECU reflash. I am sure 300rwhp will be a turbo swap away.
03-23-15, 02:10 PM
#2527
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i think something like this is a hold up to a new rotary. the Rx8 chassis (2003) was designed to be shared with the miata (2006), so they were able to save costs there. however the miata engine is basically shared with the 3/5/6/cx7, so its cheap to do vs the rotary which only goes into one car.
03-23-15, 02:53 PM
#2528
vs the rotary which only goes into one car.
Or a couple million generators, drones, electric vehicles, etc
Go go go multifuel 22kW 0.33l rotary generator!
Go go go 4 rotor 13.2B!
Competitors are already eating Mazda's share of the rotary pie.
Cubewano multifuel rotaries for UAV/APU/Range Extenders
Reno (15-19hp)
Or a couple million generators, drones, electric vehicles, etc
Go go go multifuel 22kW 0.33l rotary generator!
Go go go 4 rotor 13.2B!
Competitors are already eating Mazda's share of the rotary pie.
Cubewano multifuel rotaries for UAV/APU/Range Extenders
Reno (15-19hp)
03-24-15, 06:08 AM
#2530
vs the rotary which only goes into one car.
Or a couple million generators, drones, electric vehicles, etc
Go go go multifuel 22kW 0.33l rotary generator!
Go go go 4 rotor 13.2B!
Competitors are already eating Mazda's share of the rotary pie.
Cubewano multifuel rotaries for UAV/APU/Range Extenders
Reno (15-19hp)
Or a couple million generators, drones, electric vehicles, etc
Go go go multifuel 22kW 0.33l rotary generator!
Go go go 4 rotor 13.2B!
Competitors are already eating Mazda's share of the rotary pie.
Cubewano multifuel rotaries for UAV/APU/Range Extenders
Reno (15-19hp)
Cubewano halves fuel consumption in its engines
Anyone know any details on this?
03-24-15, 07:59 AM
#2531
A link from the same website
Cubewano halves fuel consumption in its engines
Anyone know any details on this?
Cubewano halves fuel consumption in its engines
Anyone know any details on this?
to do some investigating.....
03-24-15, 12:00 PM
#2532
Mazda's own new rotary as shown in 22kW generator for Mazda2 EV range extender had direct injection and should be diesel compatible with precise enough fuel metering to control burn rate (ie no throttle plate/fuel throttled).
My point was that this Cubewano company is out there selling these products and Mazda who showed the engine in 2013 just sat on it.
My point was that this Cubewano company is out there selling these products and Mazda who showed the engine in 2013 just sat on it.
03-25-15, 09:18 AM
#2534
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Mazda; if you want it, you can't have it
03-25-15, 06:14 PM
#2535
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If I were a Mazda CEO
I only can talk as a pro EU tuner of jap cars and just a car guy
Donno what if feels like owning FD in US or JAP. But know what it is to have one here, in Europe.
I think mazda brand is really going back to were it was in the mid-90's. New advirtisment vids are great and there is some "creator" context in it. That is a good thing. In about 2004-2012 mazda cars were not shown as something special, exotic. Just another sedan. Another mx5 20 old facelift thing. Nice, but nothing special. Rx8 fall heavily on price and prestige because its simply not strong enough to be a race car and too girly to be a grown man daily driver. Not talking about reliability which scares 99% of common sense owners.
Recent year was refreshing for company. New Mx5 is welcomed well and if it does or does not look good is still controversial. Mx5 is back. And this car is a legend. Because of its low price. Because of its potential and drivability. Mx5 is a good move to open sport market for mazda again and check if car will or not succeed in new generation of ricers.
The problem of RX7 legend is a fact, that car used to stand side by side with Porsche Turbo, Ferrari Modena, Nissan GT-R, Subaru Impreza, Evolution etc. So if new FE3S would come, it must be new Impreza competitor minimum. But Rx7 is not a rally car, its a track street car. So we have to look after 997Turbo, GT-R, 458, and other mad cars that market consumes. And if we want to suit the segment, the car must be luxury, fast and reliable. All must be set to call it supercar. And this new car must look as good today as after 20 years. Same as FC and FD did back in the day.
All concepts I've seen are quite amateur. Only mazda that suits my vision on come back is Furai. This could be Rx7 comeback. But only level like this. No lower. No sedan cars. Only supercar with superweight, sound, design and price. Ohh yeah.. Lambo Aventador would be on selary over 5-7 years since now so .. the car would be compared with other supercars.
Of course we cannot compare 60-80k car with 300k lambo. But isn't this what is done over and over again? It is. And it would be.
So lets say Furai exterior with carbon elements, new mazda 6 design interior mixed with huge mid console and wide screen speedometer with navi and app type computer would suit the expectations. But what about engine?
The evil and the saint. Rotary engine are best racing engines ever made. Producing new car with 13b would be a no progress done review. Car must be brand new. With brand new coat and organs. So what about 3 rotor re-engineered engine? Why re-engineered? Because it must suit all laws and restrictions. But we seen that in cosmo already right? Something new should shown up. Something radical. 4rotor. Yes. 26b re-engineered (cutted) engine for daily road use sounds mad. Huge catalyzers, small intakes and two turbos with about 500hp on 1300kilos? Probably too much? Yes it is. But this is exactly what the market wants today. And if you would give this a little racing mods exhaust/intakes/ecu, you'll have 700hp on 1300kilos. Sounds Rx7 to me. Sounds as competitor to Aventador, Mines GT-R and other supercars out there. We still not in the Agera range, but we are close to Bugatti speeds and emotions.
So probably price range would raise right? Yes.. up to 100k. But who would pay 100k for mazda? Not the porsche drivers. So price tag should be around 70. Probably performance would be cutted. Base should be 100%. All the rest should be optional ocean for tuners. And if they would spend 100k on engine mod, thats fine. Ohh yeah, and electronics must be super solid for that rear drive coupe.
Donno what if feels like owning FD in US or JAP. But know what it is to have one here, in Europe.I think mazda brand is really going back to were it was in the mid-90's. New advirtisment vids are great and there is some "creator" context in it. That is a good thing. In about 2004-2012 mazda cars were not shown as something special, exotic. Just another sedan. Another mx5 20 old facelift thing. Nice, but nothing special. Rx8 fall heavily on price and prestige because its simply not strong enough to be a race car and too girly to be a grown man daily driver. Not talking about reliability which scares 99% of common sense owners.
Recent year was refreshing for company. New Mx5 is welcomed well and if it does or does not look good is still controversial. Mx5 is back. And this car is a legend. Because of its low price. Because of its potential and drivability. Mx5 is a good move to open sport market for mazda again and check if car will or not succeed in new generation of ricers.
The problem of RX7 legend is a fact, that car used to stand side by side with Porsche Turbo, Ferrari Modena, Nissan GT-R, Subaru Impreza, Evolution etc. So if new FE3S would come, it must be new Impreza competitor minimum. But Rx7 is not a rally car, its a track street car. So we have to look after 997Turbo, GT-R, 458, and other mad cars that market consumes. And if we want to suit the segment, the car must be luxury, fast and reliable. All must be set to call it supercar. And this new car must look as good today as after 20 years. Same as FC and FD did back in the day.
All concepts I've seen are quite amateur. Only mazda that suits my vision on come back is Furai. This could be Rx7 comeback. But only level like this. No lower. No sedan cars. Only supercar with superweight, sound, design and price. Ohh yeah.. Lambo Aventador would be on selary over 5-7 years since now so .. the car would be compared with other supercars.
Of course we cannot compare 60-80k car with 300k lambo. But isn't this what is done over and over again? It is. And it would be.
So lets say Furai exterior with carbon elements, new mazda 6 design interior mixed with huge mid console and wide screen speedometer with navi and app type computer would suit the expectations. But what about engine?
The evil and the saint. Rotary engine are best racing engines ever made. Producing new car with 13b would be a no progress done review. Car must be brand new. With brand new coat and organs. So what about 3 rotor re-engineered engine? Why re-engineered? Because it must suit all laws and restrictions. But we seen that in cosmo already right? Something new should shown up. Something radical. 4rotor. Yes. 26b re-engineered (cutted) engine for daily road use sounds mad. Huge catalyzers, small intakes and two turbos with about 500hp on 1300kilos? Probably too much? Yes it is. But this is exactly what the market wants today. And if you would give this a little racing mods exhaust/intakes/ecu, you'll have 700hp on 1300kilos. Sounds Rx7 to me. Sounds as competitor to Aventador, Mines GT-R and other supercars out there. We still not in the Agera range, but we are close to Bugatti speeds and emotions.
So probably price range would raise right? Yes.. up to 100k. But who would pay 100k for mazda? Not the porsche drivers. So price tag should be around 70. Probably performance would be cutted. Base should be 100%. All the rest should be optional ocean for tuners. And if they would spend 100k on engine mod, thats fine. Ohh yeah, and electronics must be super solid for that rear drive coupe.
Last edited by Andrej STIEVOGTR; 03-25-15 at 06:17 PM.
03-26-15, 05:36 AM
#2537
Senior Member
I only can talk as a pro EU tuner of jap cars and just a car guy Donno what if feels like owning FD in US or JAP. But know what it is to have one here, in Europe. I think mazda brand is really going back to were it was in the mid-90's. New advirtisment vids are great and there is some "creator" context in it. That is a good thing. In about 2004-2012 mazda cars were not shown as something special, exotic. Just another sedan. Another mx5 20 old facelift thing. Nice, but nothing special. Rx8 fall heavily on price and prestige because its simply not strong enough to be a race car and too girly to be a grown man daily driver. Not talking about reliability which scares 99% of common sense owners. Recent year was refreshing for company. New Mx5 is welcomed well and if it does or does not look good is still controversial. Mx5 is back. And this car is a legend. Because of its low price. Because of its potential and drivability. Mx5 is a good move to open sport market for mazda again and check if car will or not succeed in new generation of ricers. The problem of RX7 legend is a fact, that car used to stand side by side with Porsche Turbo, Ferrari Modena, Nissan GT-R, Subaru Impreza, Evolution etc. So if new FE3S would come, it must be new Impreza competitor minimum. But Rx7 is not a rally car, its a track street car. So we have to look after 997Turbo, GT-R, 458, and other mad cars that market consumes. And if we want to suit the segment, the car must be luxury, fast and reliable. All must be set to call it supercar. And this new car must look as good today as after 20 years. Same as FC and FD did back in the day. All concepts I've seen are quite amateur. Only mazda that suits my vision on come back is Furai. This could be Rx7 comeback. But only level like this. No lower. No sedan cars. Only supercar with superweight, sound, design and price. Ohh yeah.. Lambo Aventador would be on selary over 5-7 years since now so .. the car would be compared with other supercars. Of course we cannot compare 60-80k car with 300k lambo. But isn't this what is done over and over again? It is. And it would be. So lets say Furai exterior with carbon elements, new mazda 6 design interior mixed with huge mid console and wide screen speedometer with navi and app type computer would suit the expectations. But what about engine? The evil and the saint. Rotary engine are best racing engines ever made. Producing new car with 13b would be a no progress done review. Car must be brand new. With brand new coat and organs. So what about 3 rotor re-engineered engine? Why re-engineered? Because it must suit all laws and restrictions. But we seen that in cosmo already right? Something new should shown up. Something radical. 4rotor. Yes. 26b re-engineered (cutted) engine for daily road use sounds mad. Huge catalyzers, small intakes and two turbos with about 500hp on 1300kilos? Probably too much? Yes it is. But this is exactly what the market wants today. And if you would give this a little racing mods exhaust/intakes/ecu, you'll have 700hp on 1300kilos. Sounds Rx7 to me. Sounds as competitor to Aventador, Mines GT-R and other supercars out there. We still not in the Agera range, but we are close to Bugatti speeds and emotions. So probably price range would raise right? Yes.. up to 100k. But who would pay 100k for mazda? Not the porsche drivers. So price tag should be around 70. Probably performance would be cutted. Base should be 100%. All the rest should be optional ocean for tuners. And if they would spend 100k on engine mod, thats fine. Ohh yeah, and electronics must be super solid for that rear drive coupe.
Donno what if feels like owning FD in US or JAP. But know what it is to have one here, in Europe. I think mazda brand is really going back to were it was in the mid-90's. New advirtisment vids are great and there is some "creator" context in it. That is a good thing. In about 2004-2012 mazda cars were not shown as something special, exotic. Just another sedan. Another mx5 20 old facelift thing. Nice, but nothing special. Rx8 fall heavily on price and prestige because its simply not strong enough to be a race car and too girly to be a grown man daily driver. Not talking about reliability which scares 99% of common sense owners. Recent year was refreshing for company. New Mx5 is welcomed well and if it does or does not look good is still controversial. Mx5 is back. And this car is a legend. Because of its low price. Because of its potential and drivability. Mx5 is a good move to open sport market for mazda again and check if car will or not succeed in new generation of ricers. The problem of RX7 legend is a fact, that car used to stand side by side with Porsche Turbo, Ferrari Modena, Nissan GT-R, Subaru Impreza, Evolution etc. So if new FE3S would come, it must be new Impreza competitor minimum. But Rx7 is not a rally car, its a track street car. So we have to look after 997Turbo, GT-R, 458, and other mad cars that market consumes. And if we want to suit the segment, the car must be luxury, fast and reliable. All must be set to call it supercar. And this new car must look as good today as after 20 years. Same as FC and FD did back in the day. All concepts I've seen are quite amateur. Only mazda that suits my vision on come back is Furai. This could be Rx7 comeback. But only level like this. No lower. No sedan cars. Only supercar with superweight, sound, design and price. Ohh yeah.. Lambo Aventador would be on selary over 5-7 years since now so .. the car would be compared with other supercars. Of course we cannot compare 60-80k car with 300k lambo. But isn't this what is done over and over again? It is. And it would be. So lets say Furai exterior with carbon elements, new mazda 6 design interior mixed with huge mid console and wide screen speedometer with navi and app type computer would suit the expectations. But what about engine? The evil and the saint. Rotary engine are best racing engines ever made. Producing new car with 13b would be a no progress done review. Car must be brand new. With brand new coat and organs. So what about 3 rotor re-engineered engine? Why re-engineered? Because it must suit all laws and restrictions. But we seen that in cosmo already right? Something new should shown up. Something radical. 4rotor. Yes. 26b re-engineered (cutted) engine for daily road use sounds mad. Huge catalyzers, small intakes and two turbos with about 500hp on 1300kilos? Probably too much? Yes it is. But this is exactly what the market wants today. And if you would give this a little racing mods exhaust/intakes/ecu, you'll have 700hp on 1300kilos. Sounds Rx7 to me. Sounds as competitor to Aventador, Mines GT-R and other supercars out there. We still not in the Agera range, but we are close to Bugatti speeds and emotions. So probably price range would raise right? Yes.. up to 100k. But who would pay 100k for mazda? Not the porsche drivers. So price tag should be around 70. Probably performance would be cutted. Base should be 100%. All the rest should be optional ocean for tuners. And if they would spend 100k on engine mod, thats fine. Ohh yeah, and electronics must be super solid for that rear drive coupe.
03-26-15, 12:33 PM
#2538
^^Mazda cannot afford a halo car and a rotary makes no sense for a 'volume car' (whatever that is). Halo cars are almost always unprofitable for automakers. So, unless a manufacturer has well established, profitable lines (i.e., think Toyota here), a company is going to commit financial suicide trying to support a halo car. And although the rotary is a proven engine, it is a bit too quirky to find its way into a volume car, lets be honest. Certainly, you could run an NA rotary in a standard four-door sedan, but whether it would attract a large segment of buyers over a proven recip engine ????? This whole discussion comes back to the basic economics of such a car and Mazda is not a company in the realm of one to support what kind of car this would need to be. And I suspect the engine (16X) requires a great deal more development and testing than Mazda is letting on right now.
03-26-15, 02:31 PM
#2539
Mazda has another tough choice besides the financial commitment to building a super car.
Mazda's ideal is Jinba Ittai (horse and rider together as one). In order to perform well with this ideal you must have trained drivers.
That limits your market for a super car to super drivers, which is a really really really small market.
I still think Mazda should build a Jinba Ittai super car.
Yes, it will kill lots of people, but it will also set records in the right hands and have a cult following.
Besides, they can sell an underpowered version of it most people will buy that will be "safe" and benefit from the association with the bleeding edge halo car.
Mazda's ideal is Jinba Ittai (horse and rider together as one). In order to perform well with this ideal you must have trained drivers.
That limits your market for a super car to super drivers, which is a really really really small market.
I still think Mazda should build a Jinba Ittai super car.
Yes, it will kill lots of people, but it will also set records in the right hands and have a cult following.
Besides, they can sell an underpowered version of it most people will buy that will be "safe" and benefit from the association with the bleeding edge halo car.
03-26-15, 09:16 PM
#2540
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They can also sell MS3s, MS6s, and other hi-po versions alongside it in the showroom. There's lots to be said for having a halo sports car, especially one with the legendary 7 badge on it, assuming it outperforms and undercuts the competition and gives a more pure driving experience (a la FD).
03-26-15, 09:48 PM
#2541
^^Mazda cannot afford a halo car and a rotary makes no sense for a 'volume car' (whatever that is). Halo cars are almost always unprofitable for automakers. So, unless a manufacturer has well established, profitable lines (i.e., think Toyota here), a company is going to commit financial suicide trying to support a halo car. And although the rotary is a proven engine, it is a bit too quirky to find its way into a volume car, lets be honest. Certainly, you could run an NA rotary in a standard four-door sedan, but whether it would attract a large segment of buyers over a proven recip engine ????? This whole discussion comes back to the basic economics of such a car and Mazda is not a company in the realm of one to support what kind of car this would need to be. And I suspect the engine (16X) requires a great deal more development and testing than Mazda is letting on right now.
The rotary doesn't need to be a volume car. That's what the Mazda 3,6, Cx3,& 5 are for and where Mazda is making all its money. To me it should be treated as the nitch product it is. Also you should take a look at that link I posted about the Gtr and how Nissan was able to build their halo car only 2 years after almost being bankrupt. Funny how fast things turned around for that company after doing such. At Mazda's current rate, they will be able to afford to do the same.
Last edited by t-von; 03-26-15 at 09:57 PM.
03-27-15, 10:13 AM
#2542
Exactly, if they can afford to make 350 hard top Miatas they can afford to make a couple thousand hard top Miatas with 1.3l four rotors made from generator parts.
2,200lb 300hp w/ 15x8 225 tire rotary Miata would be a good start for the base car.
2,200lb turbo 450hp with 15x10 265 tires 7 speed dual clutch trans for the death trap super car killer rotary Miata.
Don't think about it too hard Mazda, just make it.
2,200lb 300hp w/ 15x8 225 tire rotary Miata would be a good start for the base car.
2,200lb turbo 450hp with 15x10 265 tires 7 speed dual clutch trans for the death trap super car killer rotary Miata.
Don't think about it too hard Mazda, just make it.
03-27-15, 11:49 AM
#2543
^ As nice as that sounds Mazda would never do it. For one, trying to put that much power down with a 2,200lb chassis in a front engine rear wheel drive configuration would next to impossible with no weight in the rear. Ask the V8 swap Miata guys about traction. Now a rear mid-engine platform and I'm all over that car.
03-27-15, 12:09 PM
#2544
I like how this people in this thread constantly talk about what Mazda can and can't do. As if anyone here truly knows... lol People spout out stuff about meeting standards, financials, mission statements. The FACT is that unless you are a TOP EXECUTIVE at MAZDA you have no clue .
03-27-15, 02:15 PM
#2546
Originally Posted by Member X
Mazda cannot afford a halo car and a rotary makes no sense for a 'volume car' (whatever that is).....
Originally Posted by Member Y
Mazda has another tough choice besides the financial commitment to building a super car....
Originally Posted by Member Z
As nice as that sounds Mazda would never do it....
03-27-15, 03:12 PM
#2547
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Well I think you got some points . You base everything on the FD ( my favorite of the sevens ) but if you look at the RX 7's especially fc and Fd they had total different aims . The FC was like , looks like a Porsche drives like a Porsche costs half (aimed at the 944) The FD was a total different aim with more confidence and a unique bold style aimed at the likes of a 911 and full of exotic tech like the worlds first sequential turbos in a production car . Also with a confident price just below a 911 . I am curious what market they choose . Personally I think they would aim non super car but more in a league of a 370z ,Z4, Cayman . Remember to make a rotary viable you need numbers to offset development . Unlike a piston engine you can not peak on competitors development . Yes there are many small rotary applications but I don't think you can simply apply that knowledge as most are developed to run at a constant rpm most of the time ( UAV's and generators ) . To make a nicely driving car engine is a total different task . Therefore my personal opinion is they will use the FC formula and make a cheap or equal price competitor to the z4 cayman and later make a halo car as that makes more business sense ,because than you can use your mass produced parts like rotors seals housings and so on and just extend it modular to a 3 or 4 rotor for a halo car without having huge costs to offset with a niche car .
03-27-15, 05:01 PM
#2549
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Exactly, if they can afford to make 350 hard top Miatas they can afford to make a couple thousand hard top Miatas with 1.3l four rotors made from generator parts.
2,200lb 300hp w/ 15x8 225 tire rotary Miata would be a good start for the base car.
2,200lb turbo 450hp with 15x10 265 tires 7 speed dual clutch trans for the death trap super car killer rotary Miata.
Don't think about it too hard Mazda, just make it.
2,200lb 300hp w/ 15x8 225 tire rotary Miata would be a good start for the base car.
2,200lb turbo 450hp with 15x10 265 tires 7 speed dual clutch trans for the death trap super car killer rotary Miata.
Don't think about it too hard Mazda, just make it.
