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Damn, this is making me want to go take out the FD for a spin.
I definitely resonate with the "exotic feel / handling" of our cars.
To me, it always feels like a special treat to drive it. Ughh.. Gotta go drive now.
He makes an interesting point about feeling things move (particularly the rear end)... I haven't driven a new sports car, so I'm not sure if I would like to be so isolated from the driving experience. I'm sure the new cars are several times stiffer than the FD chassis, but I'm not so sure about new technology like electric steering and paddle-shifting gearboxes and their impact on "Jinba Ittai."
He makes an interesting point about feeling things move (particularly the rear end)... I haven't driven a new sports car, so I'm not sure if I would like to be so isolated from the driving experience. I'm sure the new cars are several times stiffer than the FD chassis, but I'm not so sure about new technology like electric steering and paddle-shifting gearboxes and their impact on "Jinba Ittai."
Right... I want to drive the car.
I remember driving the MKIV supra for the first time after years in the MKIII supra... There was something about the MKIV that felt like I was driving a modern sedan. The steering was so light and just not the same.
I can say the same thing for the FD vs. other modern cars.
Newer cars to me feel disconnected from the experience. (Hard to explain I guess, it's one of those "you know it when you feel it." )
Right... I want to drive the car.
I remember driving the MKIV supra for the first time after years in the MKIII supra... There was something about the MKIV that felt like I was driving a modern sedan. The steering was so light and just not the same.
I can say the same thing for the FD vs. other modern cars.
Newer cars to me feel disconnected from the experience. (Hard to explain I guess, it's one of those "you know it when you feel it." )
Agreed. The only newer cars that still offer that "feel" out of the new cars would be Porsche. BMW has lost its way... Don't even get me started on the current status of the Japanese car companies.
Yeah ok so its a simulation of steering feel then? Force feedback of some type? Or is there direct mechanical link from the steering wheel to the road?
Yeah ok so its a simulation of steering feel then? Force feedback of some type? Or is there direct mechanical link from the steering wheel to the road?
Not an engineer so I dont have an answer for that. All I can say is don't knock Porsche's electric steering till you try it. However, I do agree most electric steering are crap. I have driven BMW M3, M2, and M4 back to back at M track day event. Felt like I was driving a lexus. That's why I have zero hope for BMW. I came from an E46 M3 and I left very disappointed.
Yeah I've never driven an electric steer car so can't knock it, just theoretically seems a bit counter intuitive to have in a sports car to me. Its got to be about 1000x better than the reciprocating turd steering in my 1st gen though lol.
Love his reviews. I feel he's one of the best car reviewers out there. Objective, and clearly has a passion for true driver's cars.
Its ironic that both Mazda and Honda had electric power steering pretty well figured out and tuned YEARS ago with the RX-8 and S2000, yet to this day certain other manufacture's that claimed to be about driving haven't figured it out.
This is my car in the review. I have been following Jay since he had like 200 subscribers as I was really close to pulling the plug on a Evora 400 about 8 months ago (and selling my FD to help buy it!).
He really enjoyed the car and was waxing lyrical about it to me off camera and that he really didn't expect it to be that good given the age. He really liked the sequential setup too.
As for his comments about it moving around in the rear and under braking I think it's two things:
1. I had the Ohlins set to 9 clicks from full stuff front and rear. A bit stiffer than I normally run the car as I live in the City and roads and potholes are terrible so it's better to soften up the ride. However, we were on some really glorious but challenging British B Roads which were pretty bumpy themselves and we were not exactly driving the speed limit. If I could do it again I would have set the rear another 3-4 clicks softer and set the adjustable spoiler to maximum attack (14 degrees) as it really clamps the rear of the car down. As for the brakes, well he was attacking really hard once he got used to the car and you aren't exactly braking in straight lines like you do on a circuit. Plus, the ABS in my car is the 2nd to last derivative of which the 01-02 cars had the best ABS system which stops the car significantly smoother and quicker (see Best Motoring vids that compare a 01 RS to a 99-00 RS with the upgraded ABS).
2. I got to drive his Lotus Evora 400. In a straight line I would say it is only marginally quicker than my car at 15 PSI but it handles so much better than the FD. We have all heard about Lotus handling but it was way better than I expected and leagues better or more involving at least than a Porsche Cayman S. The ride is like a magic carpet but the turn it, stability in corners and traction throughout and coming out of them was something else. You couldn't shake the rear and it is super planted. Plus, the noise and the supercharger whine. My god. To die for. I still love my FD but the Lotus is worth it's £60k price tag and I didn't think I would come away with that conclusion. Plus, a little ECU remap and you can have 450-460hp all day long. On any British B Road you don't need anymore than that as you seriously can't use it. Roads are too narrow and curvy. In the US the Evora might feel a bit slow compared to a Corvette or something because a majority of the roads are so straight, but take it to a canyon or track where you can really push it and you will understand why Lotus has like a 30-40% conversion rate for everyone that test drives their cars.
Its ironic that both Mazda and Honda had electric power steering pretty well figured out and tuned YEARS ago with the RX-8 and S2000, yet to this day certain other manufacture's that claimed to be about driving haven't figured it out.
Before I looked at my '01 AP1 S2000 I was prepared to be disappointed with the electric power-steering, coming from my street/track 240Z with manual rack. Honestly I have no complaints at all about the S2000's steering on the road or at the track and I love the much quicker ratio. I would love to replace my FD's 16.6:1 hydraulic steering with an S2000 13.9:1 electric-assisted one...
He makes an interesting point about feeling things move (particularly the rear end)... I haven't driven a new sports car, so I'm not sure if I would like to be so isolated from the driving experience. I'm sure the new cars are several times stiffer than the FD chassis, but I'm not so sure about new technology like electric steering and paddle-shifting gearboxes and their impact on "Jinba Ittai."
Part of that moving around feeling are the now 24 year old rubber bushings. I first put in some Spirit R Bilstein B6s and it helped the handling a lot. I now understand why Mazda Engineers chose those shocks for the RS, RZ, and Spirit R.
Then, I swapped out the old OEM bushings for Mazdacomp bushings and the ride was transformed to very taught, no more squirming around. As a side note my old OEM R2 shocks and bushings had only 40k miles on them.
Part of that moving around feeling are the now 24 year old rubber bushings. I first put in some Spirit R Bilstein B6s and it helped the handling a lot. I now understand why Mazda Engineers chose those shocks for the RS, RZ, and Spirit R.
Then, I swapped out the old OEM bushings for Mazdacomp bushings and the ride was transformed to very taught, no more squirming around. As a side note my old OEM R2 shocks and bushings had only 40k miles on them.
Very good point but I do have poly front and rear on most bushings and brand new J-Auto pillowballs so I think it was just down to having really bumpy roads and the Ohlins set a bit too stiff or perhaps 11kg springs are too much over here and you need a spring that will squat more. I can say on the track I don't experience the rear end movement or the braking movement but then the circuits I drive on are smooth and you brake in straight lines. Far different to a tiny British B Road where you drive by an oncoming car and swear you are going to clip wing mirrors or have to drive off the road into a ditch when a bus or semi goes by, haha.
This guy is a good reviewer. Most are so boring and superficial. The owner's comments make me want to try an Evora. Hadn't really heard much about them being such good cars.
Yes, they are that good. I am scheduled to try an Elise and an Exige next week in addition to another Evora!
Everyone should try one but you need to try it where you can actually drive it. Not in a city driving at speed limits in straight lines. You need corners and then it all makes sense. I'm not sure there is much the Evora or Exige would not keep up with on a British B Road, no matter how much more power the other car would have. In the Evora you can use all of it and there is still more traction in reserve that you aren't using. It really was a revelation for handling, shifting and noise. All of the right emotional touch points for me. A real sense of occasion like the FD without the sequential kick scaring the **** out of me mid corner.
Yeah it was a great review, I subbed. Was impressed, he did his homework too it seemed.
Cib, great job on the car. Its perfect. What kind of tyres are on it though? Is it possible the "rear end movement" is just a result of down-spec tyres compared to the exige (to an extent)?
Yeah it was a great review, I subbed. Was impressed, he did his homework too it seemed.
Cib, great job on the car. Its perfect. What kind of tyres are on it though? Is it possible the "rear end movement" is just a result of down-spec tyres compared to the exige (to an extent)?
Thanks for the compliment! I helped him a lot with his homework but he only touched on a few points since he claimed getting too bogged down in technical details would bore viewers and that most don't like videos too far over 10 minutes. We shot a lot more but I think he chose the best scenes based on the outtake footage I have seen.
Doubtful. My car is on Nankang NS-2Rs (255/40r17 rear and 235/45r17 front (factory recommended sizes) which are a road legal track day tire like Federal 595s. His Evora was only running Michelin Pilot Supersports which have nowhere near the grip of my Nankangs as this was my previous tire.
On a personal note I hate both tires for different reasons. The Nankang's because they are too noisy on the road and their sidewalls are super stiff, and the Supersports because they have sidewalls made of dough and overheat after 2-3 laps and lose all grip.
Thank you for filling in the gaps with additional details about the video; it helps complete the story. It's great to hear from the "anonymous" owner behind these overview videos.
The rear of an FD with Ohlins moves around.
Its not just the body moving around like with shot bushings, the rear tires carry more slip angle than the front.
When I got my race seats and harnesses I was really surprised by now much tail out cornering you do in the FD even around town at "normal" speeds. Rear slip angle starts on turn in.
Without the race seats/harnesses you don't feel the rear moving around with any precision as your *** is sliding in the seat on turn in more than the rear tires are sliding on the pavement.
Thanks for lending your car out and contributing in this thread. I wonder if part of the "moving around" impression has to do with car balance? Jay is probably used to his mid-engine and he also drives some Porsches on his channel.
I'm glad I didn't take my new Michelin Pilot Super Sports to the track. I'll get a set of dedicated track tires and wheels if I go lapping again next year.
11-04-17, 08:52 AM
