snova

please lets stay on topic. To other who want to make this into a political debate. Remember, no one has ever convince anyone to changed their mind on Internet forums. ;-)

DaleClark

iTrader: (55)

I think the Supra also gets a lot of value from being the "safe" option. Toyota reliability and build quality hold a lot of cache'. Also the fact you can bolt a single turbo on and make 700 to the ground without even pulling the head off the car has a lot of appeal.

The RX-7 still has the "blown apex seal" stigma and reliability issues that cloud its image. That's out of the comfort zone of a lot of car guys and also the rotary engine seems like voodoo to many people as well. Doesn't help that the interior is more brittle than a #2 pencil lead either.

Did they make more or less Supras than FD's? I know the Supra was available in the US for longer (97 or 98).

I think there's also a lot of guys that remember seeing Supras hitting the drag strip in the early 00's and running crazy times. They were always the king at the import drags. You had fast Hondas too but they were typically gutted s&$@boxes with weird large front slicks and goofy wheelie bars. Guys remember that and want to own that car that dominated.

Dale

snova

Dale,
I have alternate perspective, which follows the Warren Buffet principal of "..when other are greedy, you should be fearful. when others are fearful, you should be greedy.." ;-) I bought an FD as a investment recently because:
#1 They get modified by the F&F crowd, reducing the number in the "stock" car pool
#2. They get wrecked by the F&F crowd, reducing the number of the "stock" car pool
#3. They get neglected from a rotatry maintenance point of view, reducing the number of the "stock" car pool. Apex seals, compounded by high heat from a Turbo? bring it.
#4. I agree with you that Investors want a safe option. However, that means they are not looking to daily their cars and thus not concerned with high maintenance costs. However, they are worried about cars which already have issue when they buy them. Which loops back to the first 3 points above.

This is why I bought a stock car which has been well maintained its whole life from a single owner. No mods of any kind.

Fritz Flynn

iTrader: (263)

Wise move.

I believe we'll see the value of nice stock FDs move higher despite what the economy does as they are just now starting to become valuable/appreciated.

Fritz Flynn

iTrader: (263)

1993.5 Model Year

-Fourth Generation Toyota Supra Introduced.

-93.5 Production Numbers:
2,819 Total Supras Sold
1,494 were twin turbos (233 6spd/hardtops, 431 6spd/targas, 830 4spd auto/targas)
1,325 were non-turbos (1,113 targas, 212 hardtops)



1994 Model Year

-Complete Carry-Over from 93.5
-Cal/NY emmissions {optional}
-ALR {auto locking retractors for seat belts}

-Exterior colors: 93.5 -94
040 super white
1A1* anthracite metallic
199* alpine silver
202 black
3L2* renaissance red
752* baltic blue
*clear coat

-94 Production Numbers:
3,488 Total Supras Sold
2,996 were twin turbos (75 6spd/hardtops, 1708 6spd/targas, 1213 4spd auto/targas)
492 were non-turbos (413 targas, 79 hardtops)



1995 Model Year

-CAL/NY/MASS. emissions {optional}
-Rear spoiler on base models{optional}
-Audio systems redesigned.
-"key-off" operation added all models{PW/PL operated after 60 sec of key to off position}
-SE package on non-turbo models

-Exterior colors:
040 super white
1A1* anthracite metallic
199* alpine silver
202 black
3L2* renaissance red
752* baltic blue
*clear coat

-95 Production Numbers:
2,347 Total Supras Sold
806 were twin turbo (18 6spd/hardtops, 526 6spd/targas, 262 4spd auto/targas)
1,541 were non-turbos (495 targas, 1046 hardtops)



1996 Model Year

-Engine management system now OBDII.
-Cloth rear seat replaces vinyl on models without leather
-Tow bar fitting brackets are discontinued
-New exterior color Deep Jewel Green pearl
-Deleted exterior color Anthracite Metallic
-The ABS has been changed to the 2 position solenoid valve type actuator.{less clutter in engine bay}. Changed from a 4-channel ABS to a simpler 3-channel system.
-The TRAC button has the addition of "snow" feature along with the "off" function.
-TRAC system no longer functions in part through the ABS system

Non-turbo only:
-Heated mirrors deleted
-Power seat not available with cloth drivers seat.
-Audio head unit change.
-SE model deleted models for 96 non-turbos

Turbo only:
-All Supra Turbos with 6spd's discontinued
-Supra Turbo Targa's discontinued till Jan 96{jan96-aug96 production}

-Exterior colors:
040 super white
199* alpine silver
202 black
3L2* renaissance red
6P3* deep jewel green pearl
752* baltic blue
*clear coat

-96 Production Numbers:
284 Total Supras Sold
88 were twin turbo (0 6spd/hardtops, 0 6spd/targas, 88 4spd auto/targas)
196 were non-turbos (168 targas, 28 hardtops)



1997 Model Year
-The multi-reflector type headlamps are adopted. Parking lamp removed and moved into front turn signal housing. Dark Grey background.
-The re-design of the front turn signals [parking lamp added, lens clear]
-Front bumper cover [a single horizontal bar added to center of large radiator opening]
-Rear tail lamps have been changed. [dark grey background].
-The front seats have been changed to integrated headrest type without changing their basic design. (Harness Belts will no longer pass through)
-Standard High Solar Energy Absorbing Glass {HSEA}
-Heated Mirrors deleted {all models}
-Instrument panels, door switch panels, console shift panel, painted argent color.
-6-speed Getrag Transmission again available on Twin Turbos
-Longer shift handle{.75in} 6 speed only.
-An aluminum radiator is added to the turbo models to save weight.
-Gas cap hanger on gas door Standard
-Torsen Limited-Slip now an option on Automatic equipped twin turbos
-The Brake Master Cylinder diameter has been increased on the TT models.
-Parking brake system up-graded on NA models for [ rear rotors and parking brake change]
-Various areas of the suspension system have been revised to improve riding comfort, in addition, this provides excellent stability, and controllability, i.e., (I think this just means different springs and shocks) Brace rod for rear suspension has been relocated, and engine shock absorber was changed from mono tube to twin tube gas filled absorber type.
-Reinforcements and gussets have been newly added to the bottom of the front and center pillars.
-Energy absorbing pads are provided on the door trim, at the upper shoulder and lower arm rest areas.
-Sunvisors in vinyl material instead of cloth from earlier years.{easy to clean}
-Vinyl parking brake handle.
-Sound absorbing material is newly provided in the front pillar and in the rear quarter panels to reduce road noise.
-The material of sound absorbing material used in the trim and garnish has been changed.
-The illuminated entry system has been discontinued.
-A 1-sensor type air bag system has been adopted.
-"Supra" script add to passenger side aig bag cover.
-The cruise control system has a new motor type actuator, functions have been changed.{less clutter in engine bay}
-Added the word "turbo" next to "Supra" script on deck lid.
-Polished alloy wheels with chrome center caps, valve stems, caps and weights [TT]. New design on center caps [NA models].
-’97 only’ offered "Anniversary Edition" Included Badging on fenders and embroidered floor mats.
-The word "turbo" added to the gold kits.

-97 Exterior colors:
040 super white
199*alpine silver
202 black
3L2*renaissance red
6P3*deep jewel green pearl
8L5*royal sapphire pearl [RSP]
*=clear coat

-97 Production Numbers:
1,621 Total Supras Sold
1,177 were twin turbos (0 Hardtops, 768 6spd/Targas, 409 4spd Auto/Targas)
444 were non-turbos (126 Hardtops, 318 Targas)



1998 Model Year

-A "3 spoke" design steering wheel replaced the previous "4 spoke" model.
-Rear spoiler now standard on ALL models {n/a-tt}.
-VVTi - new for non-turbo models.
-Stereo Head Unit redesigned yet again.
-Webing removed from around the lug nuts to reduce wheel weight slightly

-98 Exterior colors:
040 super white
1B9 quick silver
202 black
3L2*renaissance red
6Q7 imperial jade mica
8L5*royal sapphire pearl[RSP]
*=clear coat

-98 Production Numbers:
~680 Total Supras Produced
~416 were twin turbos (0 hardtops, ~279 6spd/targas, ~137 4spd auto/targas)
~264 were non-turbos (~36 hardtops, ~228 Targas)



1999 Model Year

-Supra no longer sold in the United States



2002 Model Year
-Supra production stopped in Japan

djseven

iTrader: (56)

The supra also have a vin tag on every single body panel and on the engine as well. This helps easily separate cars that have been heavily modded or wrecked. Total number of turbo supras in the US sold was about half the number of FDs.

Montego

iTrader: (1)

That's pretty cool that you bought this car for investment purposes, it speaks volumes of what you think of FD's. With that said, I'm on a completely different camp as I bought mine to drive and enjoy the performance out of it. The first time I drove one and within 100 ft, I knew these cars were special and that someday they would be worth something (but i will drive the snot out of them YOLO ). As an FYI - it is not the F&F crowd that mainly modifies these cars as that crowd came and went close to 15 years ago. So please don't lump the large majority of people on here into that wannabe group.

With regards to stock cars and the reason many are modified:
They plainly have issues that require to be addressed. For example, even if driven conservatively a stock car will still cook the 72 vacuum hoses, melt the pre-cat, the AST and radiator will crack. Never mind the stock IC has a tendency to get heat soaked after a couple of pulls, the turbo exhaust housings tend to crack (I have yet to see one that hasn't), and the first gen wheels have been known to crack as well (though you have to be pretty hard on the car for that to take place)... But forget all of that, the real reason most people modify these cars is because 100% stock FDs are actually quite underwhelming. WOT past 70 MPH? hold on and move out of the way of that SVT ford focus that is coming behind you (lol sad but true). The truth is these cars are just waiting to be uncorked. Slap some bolt-ons and up the boost a couple of lbs? Get ready to enjoy a whole different animal, a difference of night and day. Though they have their flaws, there is a reason why FD's are still competitive on a race track. They really do hold their own, even today (just not stock ).

^^This.
Unlike FD's, all MKIV Supras were NOT created equal. Though there are differences in trim levels that people prefer (just like FD's), it is the turbo option with the 2JZ that is truly coveted. To top it off they are not very common which only increases the price point.

gmonsen

Fritz... Here, here. Couldn't agree more with what you said.

jsesq

After a little bit of a lull.... Bring a Trailer has another FD up for bid:

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1994-mazda-rx-7-24/

Pretty clean '94 Montego Blue over Tan Touring with 80k miles and one slightly tired rotor - I'll say... $25,000

aplscrambles

iTrader: (7)

Blue/tan, 80k, half worn out motor. Selling in March? Probably set a record low for an FD on BaT. Nowhere near 25k car.

Pete_89T2

iTrader: (4)

Not a bad example, here's my $0.02 on this one...

- Seller needs to post lots of underside pictures & more hi-res pictures of the interior. There are a couple of clues in the pictures that underside rust/corrosion may be an issue - i.e., invoice with 4 wheel alignment notes that the tech didn't adjust the right rear toe because the "toe link was seized". Could be just a lazy tech who doesn't get the wonders of PB blaster or applying heat to loosen tough nuts, or the car may have lots of underside corrosion going on. The Carfax says it spent its first 3~4 years of life in PA where they salt the crap out of the roads, so corrosion wouldn't surprise me.

- Seller mentions wear on the seats, but pictures of the interior are few and of crappy resolution, so I can't get a good feeling of what I'm in for it total. Plastics could be crappy too, just can't tell. It is a '94 though, with the inherently better plastics, so that's a plus. If I were to buy it, I'd convert the interior to black - re-skin the seats in black leather (leather skins are available for about $500~600, DIY job) and find a clean set of black OEM carpets. Would I need any other black interior trim bits needed to do a full conversion to black on a '94?

- Engine is on its way out, but that's expected at 80K miles. Just budget about $5K for a new Mazda short block, maybe another $1~3K for all the "while your in there" reliability mods worth doing (DP, better radiator, aluminum AST, service the FI's, new clutch, all new hoses/belts, etc) and a free weekend or two to drop it all in.

- General mechanical upkeep on this car concerns me. Dealer's invoice says "plugs are badly worn", and the under hood pictures show brake fluid that looks pitch black - both are good indications that this car wasn't given much love. Since the engine will eventually be replaced, what worries me the most here is the brake system. Neglected brake fluid tends to shorten the life of expensive ABS pumps.

- Exterior looks pretty clean and straight, doesn't look like any body work is required.

All in all, my maximum unemotional BaT bid for this one would be about $15K. Granted, MB isn't my favorite FD color but I could live with it. That leaves room for the BaT fees + cross country shipping to get it home (about $2.5K), and all the stuff I mentioned above to restore it (~8.5K), so total of ~ $26K all in.

Thoughts from the more seasoned FD experts?

Fritz Flynn

iTrader: (263)

I agree it's a 15k FD. I say 20 on BAT where emotions run high

Positives: relatively clean 94 and that's about it. MB on tan, likely rust, 80k miles and needs an engine, probably turbos and on and on and on

Yep the only tan parts are seats, carpet and mats but that's still 1500 to 2000 (prices on nice black seats and carpet are going higher) or more and lots of labor. Pulling the dash and then the carpet is no joke. I advise reading up on tips for pulling the carpet out correctly.

The 95 with 40k miles that sold for 26 was a deal especially if this cars sells for anything over 20.

LO7

iTrader: (2)

This is a good sign to hear from a JDM Importer:

amp

iTrader: (50)

throwin flame suit on.... as much as i love the fd...
the motors reputation is the kryptonite in getting it to anywhere near the value the supras are seein...
the pricing difference has been substantial between the two for the last fifteen years and the gap is still increasing to a point the supra has lapped it in value 3x over..
ive had more inquiries on the supra thats not for sale.... than the fd that is for sale...

cant keep em in stock they say... but i see the same FDs for sale for months on end...

colditz_II

iTrader: (2)

I don't think anyone in here is deluded enough to think that the FD will ever be worth anything more than a ratio of the original MSRPs (at best) to what the Supra is now.

Regarding that importer, I take no stock in what anyone on the sell-side says. All that matters are the actual prices that cars sell for.

djseven

iTrader: (56)

Fritz Flynn

iTrader: (263)

That's an optimistic outlook and David is likely accurate. Supra's sold for approx. 50k (david can correct me) so if it's currently selling at plus 3 times value it would be hard to imagine an FD selling for 120k plus but time will tell.

Not in my wildest dreams did I think the Supra would ever sell for 170k plus so I guess the old saying never say never is applicable to all things but especially collector car values LOL.

At this time I do think the FD will continue to go up in value or now is a good time to buy if you want one.

Fritz Flynn

iTrader: (263)

Do you like the Supra or the FD better?

Do you consider yourself a driver or a collector?

jsesq

And Bring a Trailer keeps ‘em coming!

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1993-mazda-rx-7-59/

93 brilliant black over red (which I don’t think I’ve seen before), with some (?) miles on it, 3 accidents and it’s an automatic.

Ill go for … $12,500.

aplscrambles

iTrader: (7)

Black/red, sweet, haven't seen one of those in forever. Local to me too. Thought it might be good for a manual swap, But, 3 wrecks, odo discrepancy, high miles, auto, and a crappy interior? No way. That's a parts car. Fritz, Jim T, and Ray Crowe can vouch for me, you don't want to go down that road. Been there, done that. $40k+ later you have a $20k car.

TwinCharged RX7

iTrader: (14)

I'd buy it for $12.5 any day

TwinCharged RX7

iTrader: (14)

That's not a parts car. Not a collectors car for sure, but a parts car would be a waste.

A parts car is usually one that has damage but other salvageable parts. Would make no sense to tear this apart, unless that is a business you already have going.

Greg Sabol

I agree with Fritz, I think it'll sell for 20k....I'm not a fan of tan interiors, but someone is! looking at the pictures, the undercarriage looks clean, it didn't spend enough time in PA to rust. The FD was well protected anyway. The car has some nice upgrades, I think someone could pay 20k for this car and drive it for a long time before anything major needs repair....if you don't beat the motor that compression should last awhile...it'll be interesting to see the final sale number, in my humble opinion if someone gets this car for 20K they got a good deal!

Fritz Flynn

iTrader: (263)

YEP

This is a 10k max FD but will likely sell for 13,500 on BAT. Only 1 reason you buy an automatic FD with 100k plus miles, 3 accidents, odometer issues etc... and that's because it's a deal. Anything over 10k is too much. Even then you'd be much better off buying a nicer wrecked FD if parting out cars is your thing or buying a nicer manual trans FD if you want a project keeper.

No doubt anyone who's buying a roller or a cheap FD is doing it because they like building cars, not saving money


I agree 20k would be a fair price anything more though is too much IMO.

Regarding the 94 or the 93 I'd 1st make this guy an offer: https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generati...ue-fs-1134619/

If the paint job (5k plus job done well and it might be a keeper) sucks move on. Good cars/deals are all over the place and I've seen very few good deals on BAT which is crazy because it's a frikken auction with a pretty big fee LOL.

Fritz Flynn

iTrader: (263)

Sold at 20,500 with fees. Not a bad deal and not a good deal for an MB touring.

Lets just CONFIRM 110% that model, color and interior color are huge when it comes to valuing these cars. MB on tan has proven over and over again to be the least valuable FD at this time.