How to value your FD
03-23-17, 08:54 AM
#127
They are very different markets. Once has less than 6000 cars in the US and the other has 40K+/year every year. I beg to differ on no class or style in a late model vette. May not be your style, but the car blends brute performance with comfort, drive-ability, modern technology, functional AC system, huge aftermarket parts scene and out-of-the-box track superiority to most everything else out there and can be had used with a few miles for under 30k. Its a hard vehicle to knock regardless of what scene you are from as its damn well designed machine.
The FD market is the FD market to FD people. To outsiders its just a mystery, and quite possibly insane compared to what else is out there. My FD is pristine and "well optioned" to me. I should know...I built it, and have 35k in it.
Again...most of those who know, can't afford or don't care. The people who do recognize it and think its awesome always look like they're gonna **** when they find out what I have in it. Either young kids who then wonder WTF I do to be able to do that...OR older people wondering WHY the F I spent that on this car.
To each their own though. That's my $0.00.
Skeese gets it.
I could pay cash for any car here currently for sale, but I really wouldn't want to drive it as much as my other collectibles due to the known maintenance needs. (Drive it to keep it working but not so much you hit that 50k and need to start thinking of a rebuild) That's why cars like Ferrari 355 are less sought after, people can't enjoy them as much as they would want.
I could pay cash for any car here currently for sale, but I really wouldn't want to drive it as much as my other collectibles due to the known maintenance needs. (Drive it to keep it working but not so much you hit that 50k and need to start thinking of a rebuild) That's why cars like Ferrari 355 are less sought after, people can't enjoy them as much as they would want.
Skeese
03-23-17, 09:27 AM
#128
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I have long believed that the FD would climb in value and Fritz has always said I was wrong. I was wrong and he was right. Like so many here, I love the FD. Fritz loves the FD. I've had one since 1995 except for 2002-2004. I have spent an unrestricted and unlimited amount of money on my car and have nearly as much in it as my Ferrari. I didn't spend the money because I thought I would ever get it back, of course. I just thought a low mile, good condition FD would be worth maybe $40,000 by now. I compared it to my E30 M3 in terms of how special it was and still think the comparison is valid and the M3 is worth $50-150,000 today depending on miles and condition. (Some M3's with under 10,000 miles are selling for close to $200,000.) Older Porsches have gone up in value quite a lot. Ferrari's have done the same.
I was really wrong about the FD. Either the FD is not the car I thought it was or the market is not as intelligent as necessary to appreciate it for what it is. Since in business we say the market is always right, I suspect that the FD is just not the car I thought it was.
G
I was really wrong about the FD. Either the FD is not the car I thought it was or the market is not as intelligent as necessary to appreciate it for what it is. Since in business we say the market is always right, I suspect that the FD is just not the car I thought it was.
G
Gordon,
We've always been on the same page (or at least close) as far as values go and this car becoming a collector (we've agreed on this for close to 20 years LOL). Probably back in 2015 in some other value thread, we both agreed that in 5 years, a low mileage FD should be worth 40k and it will be.
The problem is this isn't 2020 and the cars listed for 30k plus don't have low mileage LOL.
PS Oh and this car is everything and then some that you think it is
Last edited by Fritz Flynn; 03-23-17 at 09:29 AM.
03-23-17, 09:35 AM
#129
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That is a valid point, Cougar community is smaller and getting smaller by the day. Reality is the RX7 community really isn't much bigger and that could very well be due to it being more recent.
I think the reason this community isnt bigger is the prices the current owners ask. You see an average Gen 3 going for 16-28k. That same 28k will get you a brand new or 1 year old 400hp mustang.
Granted I'm not an owner and never will be with these kind of prices so I'll just break down from an outside view that still appreciates the cars for what they are.
Average well maintained Gen 3, $15-18
Some of the more rare unmolested, $19-22
Modded with same taste as buyer, $19-28
The very rare, $ 23-27
The one of a kind 94 white, $36+
Frankly the only reason I see the prices staying higher is because you get the few hopefuls that held onto this as their dream car regardless of what has come around and finally after decades of saving and shopping around can afford one or the guys that have previously owned on and sold theirs for a similar price.
We all know these are not head turners to anybody that doesn't know what it is and it doesn't have the history of cars that have stuck around like the Mustangs or Fairladies.
Just to be clear this isn't intended to be a bashing sort of post and I know someone will take it personal, but that is an outside view from a guy that loves all cars for the differences in each of them.
I think the reason this community isnt bigger is the prices the current owners ask. You see an average Gen 3 going for 16-28k. That same 28k will get you a brand new or 1 year old 400hp mustang.
Granted I'm not an owner and never will be with these kind of prices so I'll just break down from an outside view that still appreciates the cars for what they are.
Average well maintained Gen 3, $15-18
Some of the more rare unmolested, $19-22
Modded with same taste as buyer, $19-28
The very rare, $ 23-27
The one of a kind 94 white, $36+
Frankly the only reason I see the prices staying higher is because you get the few hopefuls that held onto this as their dream car regardless of what has come around and finally after decades of saving and shopping around can afford one or the guys that have previously owned on and sold theirs for a similar price.
We all know these are not head turners to anybody that doesn't know what it is and it doesn't have the history of cars that have stuck around like the Mustangs or Fairladies.
Just to be clear this isn't intended to be a bashing sort of post and I know someone will take it personal, but that is an outside view from a guy that loves all cars for the differences in each of them.
As far as values go the most important thing is mileage.......PERIOD!
Beyond that of course model and color will make a difference today and a HUGE difference in 10 years.
The reason this car will be and is a collector is because it's an amazing head turner. It's a frikken legend. EVERYONE who knows cars, knows what this car is about
The prices have risen at least 5k in the last 5 years and I expect them to increase another 5k or more over the next 5 years.
The market is drying up and there are very few cars listed which is why you see the crazy pricing. Sellers are simply waiting for all the deals to go away and they will
PS No doubt the collector market is fickle, but not when it comes to a beauty and the FD is a sexy car. There is no one with any sense who would ever question that. Both inside and outside, it's gorgeous. Add in the unique engine, the handling, how fun it is to drive, how competitive it still is etc... and there's a reason this car is a HUGE legend.
Last edited by Fritz Flynn; 03-23-17 at 09:40 AM.
03-23-17, 09:44 AM
#130
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I also keep hearing the reliability thing come up.
AND I'll repeat that when setup properly this is a very reliable turbo sports car.
When bone stock and maintained it's a very reliable turbo sports car.
AND I'll repeat that when setup properly this is a very reliable turbo sports car.
When bone stock and maintained it's a very reliable turbo sports car.
03-23-17, 12:12 PM
#131
I tend to look at them as generalized, obviously if I was looking for a strict collectable I'd be concerned with the options. I look at them as something I would enjoy driving, not racing and just to have something a little different with some history such as it being part of the dirty trio of 90's Japanese sports cars. My ideal one would be literally any trim level Yellow, Blue, maybe Silver with black interior and whatever options happen to be there. Without you stating it I would have not looked too much into a second oil cooler. I'm not saying these cars aren't worth close to 20k I'd happily pay 22k for a Yellow on Black with a manual that I can get a good years worth of road time in before have to contemplate any significant repairs and I'm also not naive to think that would be a blue moon kind of moment because it seems everyone either stores these to look at them or tracks and beats on them. So, the middle is where I will live and be content I don't need one to enjoy looking at someone else's and I don't have to pay 30k to do it.
03-23-17, 01:19 PM
#132
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Fritz,
Reliability isn't being used as a full blown problem to the price but rather a precautionary measure. As you've said in this thread if the car sits you run risk of the motor basically eating itself. And you are almost guaranteed to need a 5k rebuild by the time you get 50k miles seat time. That is a long distance still, but if someone knows they will drive this car say every weekend they aren't looking for a low mile garage queen or a super high mile modded or coming due for rebuild. I agree that milage is the biggest contributer to initial investment just like any collector. It's also very tough to explain to people that "know" cars what it is about the RX7 people enjoy mailing the market dry until there are 4 dudes with all the low mile cars.
Reliability isn't being used as a full blown problem to the price but rather a precautionary measure. As you've said in this thread if the car sits you run risk of the motor basically eating itself. And you are almost guaranteed to need a 5k rebuild by the time you get 50k miles seat time. That is a long distance still, but if someone knows they will drive this car say every weekend they aren't looking for a low mile garage queen or a super high mile modded or coming due for rebuild. I agree that milage is the biggest contributer to initial investment just like any collector. It's also very tough to explain to people that "know" cars what it is about the RX7 people enjoy mailing the market dry until there are 4 dudes with all the low mile cars.
03-23-17, 01:35 PM
#133
Fritz,
Reliability isn't being used as a full blown problem to the price but rather a precautionary measure. As you've said in this thread if the car sits you run risk of the motor basically eating itself. And you are almost guaranteed to need a 5k rebuild by the time you get 50k miles seat time. That is a long distance still, but if someone knows they will drive this car say every weekend they aren't looking for a low mile garage queen or a super high mile modded or coming due for rebuild. I agree that milage is the biggest contributer to initial investment just like any collector. It's also very tough to explain to people that "know" cars what it is about the RX7 people enjoy mailing the market dry until there are 4 dudes with all the low mile cars.
Reliability isn't being used as a full blown problem to the price but rather a precautionary measure. As you've said in this thread if the car sits you run risk of the motor basically eating itself. And you are almost guaranteed to need a 5k rebuild by the time you get 50k miles seat time. That is a long distance still, but if someone knows they will drive this car say every weekend they aren't looking for a low mile garage queen or a super high mile modded or coming due for rebuild. I agree that milage is the biggest contributer to initial investment just like any collector. It's also very tough to explain to people that "know" cars what it is about the RX7 people enjoy mailing the market dry until there are 4 dudes with all the low mile cars.
The notion that rotaries need a rebuild every 60k miles is just a common misconception (caused by people who shoved their nose into someone else's tailpipe and never changed the oil). Perception is reality, but we're here to address that.
03-23-17, 01:50 PM
#134
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The rebuilds are needed when the cars are abused or poorly modified and poorly maintain. My FD is near 70k miles and has great compression and no coolant buzzer. With some thoughtful mods(rad, oil coolers, downpipe, etc), I expect the next engine to last 100k miles or more, whenever it actually needs a rebuild. Though, I'm not sure I can find the time to put that many miles on it.
The notion that rotaries need a rebuild every 60k miles is just a common misconception (caused by people who shoved their nose into someone else's tailpipe and never changed the oil). Perception is reality, but we're here to address that.
The notion that rotaries need a rebuild every 60k miles is just a common misconception (caused by people who shoved their nose into someone else's tailpipe and never changed the oil). Perception is reality, but we're here to address that.
03-23-17, 02:32 PM
#135
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Fritz,
Reliability isn't being used as a full blown problem to the price but rather a precautionary measure. As you've said in this thread if the car sits you run risk of the motor basically eating itself. And you are almost guaranteed to need a 5k rebuild by the time you get 50k miles seat time. That is a long distance still, but if someone knows they will drive this car say every weekend they aren't looking for a low mile garage queen or a super high mile modded or coming due for rebuild. I agree that milage is the biggest contributer to initial investment just like any collector. It's also very tough to explain to people that "know" cars what it is about the RX7 people enjoy mailing the market dry until there are 4 dudes with all the low mile cars.
Reliability isn't being used as a full blown problem to the price but rather a precautionary measure. As you've said in this thread if the car sits you run risk of the motor basically eating itself. And you are almost guaranteed to need a 5k rebuild by the time you get 50k miles seat time. That is a long distance still, but if someone knows they will drive this car say every weekend they aren't looking for a low mile garage queen or a super high mile modded or coming due for rebuild. I agree that milage is the biggest contributer to initial investment just like any collector. It's also very tough to explain to people that "know" cars what it is about the RX7 people enjoy mailing the market dry until there are 4 dudes with all the low mile cars.
That said if you have it built correctly and maintain it correctly you should get a 100k miles out of the new engine. 5k for 100k miles in a sports car of this stature is a bargain.
The rebuilds are needed when the cars are abused or poorly modified and poorly maintain. My FD is near 70k miles and has great compression and no coolant buzzer. With some thoughtful mods(rad, oil coolers, downpipe, etc), I expect the next engine to last 100k miles or more, whenever it actually needs a rebuild. Though, I'm not sure I can find the time to put that many miles on it.
The notion that rotaries need a rebuild every 60k miles is just a common misconception (caused by people who shoved their nose into someone else's tailpipe and never changed the oil). Perception is reality, but we're here to address that.
The notion that rotaries need a rebuild every 60k miles is just a common misconception (caused by people who shoved their nose into someone else's tailpipe and never changed the oil). Perception is reality, but we're here to address that.
...........the ssm car I've been driving had 41k original miles when I bought it and it now has 54k and counting with zero issues. Probably just jinxed myself, but it runs cool, starts hot or cold and pulls like a freight train.I have a black touring that had the original motor rebuild at approx 120k miles.
That makes complete sense. So really to get a true fair value of the car you need to know it's history and how the seller drives his monster. To me that sounds like a very timely but necessary process for a 25 year old 20k+ car just because it isn't your average car, they need some special attention as far as how they are modded and driven.
03-23-17, 02:47 PM
#136
Honestly more often than not, people are talking to me, taking pictures, filming, waving, yelling... To the point of being silly. But hey people love FD's and it comes with the territory.
Last edited by Montego; 03-23-17 at 02:52 PM.
03-23-17, 03:07 PM
#137
Everyone is entitled to their opinion but you are sooo dead wrong about these cars not being head turners. lol
Honestly more often than not, people are talking to me, taking pictures, filming, waving, yelling... To the point of being silly. But hey people love FD's and it comes with the territory.
Honestly more often than not, people are talking to me, taking pictures, filming, waving, yelling... To the point of being silly. But hey people love FD's and it comes with the territory.
Still got people taking out their phones taking pic of my mostly stock looking FD.
Last edited by hadokenny; 03-23-17 at 03:20 PM.
03-23-17, 03:10 PM
#138
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Everyone is entitled to their opinion but you are sooo dead wrong about these cars not being head turners. lol
Honestly more often than not, people are talking to me, taking pictures, filming, waving, yelling... To the point of being silly. But hey people love FD's and it comes with the territory.
Honestly more often than not, people are talking to me, taking pictures, filming, waving, yelling... To the point of being silly. But hey people love FD's and it comes with the territory.
AND this above everything else is why this car in excellent condition will be worth 50k in 10 years.
03-23-17, 04:31 PM
#140
Here's a very nice example: https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generati...heels-1108064/
That's very well sorted, but probably a good benchmark.
And, I can't get gas or drive through town without someone saying something. Some kid stood in the middle of the crosswalk and asked me questions. Thumbs up drive-bys all the time. Women have flashed me on the highway without provocation, YMMV.
That's very well sorted, but probably a good benchmark.
And, I can't get gas or drive through town without someone saying something. Some kid stood in the middle of the crosswalk and asked me questions. Thumbs up drive-bys all the time. Women have flashed me on the highway without provocation, YMMV.
Last edited by Narfle; 03-23-17 at 04:34 PM.
03-23-17, 04:53 PM
#141
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Here's a very nice example: https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generati...heels-1108064/
That's very well sorted, but probably a good benchmark.
And, I can't get gas or drive through town without someone saying something. Some kid stood in the middle of the crosswalk and asked me questions. Thumbs up drive-bys all the time. Women have flashed me on the highway without provocation, YMMV.
That's very well sorted, but probably a good benchmark.
And, I can't get gas or drive through town without someone saying something. Some kid stood in the middle of the crosswalk and asked me questions. Thumbs up drive-bys all the time. Women have flashed me on the highway without provocation, YMMV.
Personally I believe when it comes to cars like this (heavily modded 3 rotors etc...) it's just a matter of how close the car is to matching what the buyer is looking for as far as mods etc....
I'm guessing it sold for less than the 45k ask.
Cars like that are basically untouchable (make no sense) to me. I'd rather have a really nice setup 2 rotor or a super low mileage bone stock FD.
03-23-17, 05:00 PM
#142
Personally I believe when it comes to cars like this (heavily modded 3 rotors etc...) it's just a matter of how close the car is to matching what the buyer is looking for as far as mods etc....
I'm guessing it sold for less than the 45k ask.
Cars like that are basically untouchable (make no sense) to me. I'd rather have a really nice setup 2 rotor or a super low mileage bone stock FD.
I'm guessing it sold for less than the 45k ask.
Cars like that are basically untouchable (make no sense) to me. I'd rather have a really nice setup 2 rotor or a super low mileage bone stock FD.
03-23-17, 05:14 PM
#145
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Still I'll take the FD over the cheeseburger any day. Hell i'll take the s2k over the french fries
03-23-17, 05:16 PM
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The 3 and 4 rotor cars are so personal, so unique, and there's really no market for them. Plus, in my experience, many are not, let's say kindly, fully sorted. I know a few that are really nice, but the owners have way more money in them than they could ever get if they sold.
From what I've seen a nice 3 rotor today is 40k and a project 3 rotor is 25k (which is what most of them are)
03-23-17, 06:54 PM
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I would have to argue that if you drive your FDs locally fairly often people have noticed it before and decided they like them. What gets most people to look initially is a flash of a bright color, a sound they don't hear often, or they are like me and will snap their neck driving to see literally any car that's not owned or well known by the general populace.
Still not knocking these cars and I do know people love them, why else would I be on this forum talking about them? But more people generally show more interest elsewhere.
You keep bringing up the MB in GA which is right next to me and yes it is tempting, but I like to keep things as close to original as possible and I just would hate myself to change the paint or interior lol.
Still not knocking these cars and I do know people love them, why else would I be on this forum talking about them? But more people generally show more interest elsewhere.
You keep bringing up the MB in GA which is right next to me and yes it is tempting, but I like to keep things as close to original as possible and I just would hate myself to change the paint or interior lol.
03-23-17, 07:25 PM
#148
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I would have to argue that if you drive your FDs locally fairly often people have noticed it before and decided they like them. What gets most people to look initially is a flash of a bright color, a sound they don't hear often, or they are like me and will snap their neck driving to see literally any car that's not owned or well known by the general populace.
Still not knocking these cars and I do know people love them, why else would I be on this forum talking about them? But more people generally show more interest elsewhere.
You keep bringing up the MB in GA which is right next to me and yes it is tempting, but I like to keep things as close to original as possible and I just would hate myself to change the paint or interior lol.
Still not knocking these cars and I do know people love them, why else would I be on this forum talking about them? But more people generally show more interest elsewhere.
You keep bringing up the MB in GA which is right next to me and yes it is tempting, but I like to keep things as close to original as possible and I just would hate myself to change the paint or interior lol.
Once you own one you'll get it.
Last edited by Fritz Flynn; 03-23-17 at 07:53 PM.
03-23-17, 07:30 PM
#149
I would have to argue that if you drive your FDs locally fairly often people have noticed it before and decided they like them. What gets most people to look initially is a flash of a bright color, a sound they don't hear often, or they are like me and will snap their neck driving to see literally any car that's not owned or well known by the general populace.
Still not knocking these cars and I do know people love them, why else would I be on this forum talking about them? But more people generally show more interest elsewhere.
You keep bringing up the MB in GA which is right next to me and yes it is tempting, but I like to keep things as close to original as possible and I just would hate myself to change the paint or interior lol.
Still not knocking these cars and I do know people love them, why else would I be on this forum talking about them? But more people generally show more interest elsewhere.
You keep bringing up the MB in GA which is right next to me and yes it is tempting, but I like to keep things as close to original as possible and I just would hate myself to change the paint or interior lol.
Ever heard of "sour grapes", whereby you convince yourself you don't want something you can't have?
If they're not pretty and not desirable, then what are you doing here?
Enough of the Ciceronian defense, you're knocking FDs. It's tired.
03-23-17, 08:09 PM
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Sour Grapes, Ciceronian Defense, whatever you wish is your own opinion and I respect it as such whether you respect mine or not. I would assume that the people running over screaming FD are of the tuner persuasion crowd as I've always referred to them as RX7's, but I also don't lose my mind over an average one. A 25th Anniversary or Spirit sure, just not Joe Blow's Gen 3.
Obviously, if you're on a forum specifically for one type of car convincing the masses it isn't the greatest thing since sliced bread is a mute cause. It isn't going to stop me from thinking realistically about it.
BTW, if the only reason anybody buys this car or speaks of it in an attempt to throw it someone's face because they either were too young to buy one when it was new or had to save for years to buy one that does nothing but gives the owners wide spread a bad rep.
As far as never owning one, I guess you'll never know. No matter how much people here think it these cars are not the end all be all of collectors and never will be. Sorry, not sorry the truth hurts sometimes.
Obviously, if you're on a forum specifically for one type of car convincing the masses it isn't the greatest thing since sliced bread is a mute cause. It isn't going to stop me from thinking realistically about it.
BTW, if the only reason anybody buys this car or speaks of it in an attempt to throw it someone's face because they either were too young to buy one when it was new or had to save for years to buy one that does nothing but gives the owners wide spread a bad rep.
As far as never owning one, I guess you'll never know. No matter how much people here think it these cars are not the end all be all of collectors and never will be. Sorry, not sorry the truth hurts sometimes.