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I can’t get the FD bug to go away! I am trying to understand what a realistic budget would be to build a reliable OEM+ FD and track it a few times a year so I can make some life decisions.
Initially, I could come up with around 23K, plus have about 2-3k per year to kick around as a hobby investment. I would plan to keep the FD forever. I am a purist (and very OCD) and would keep the body stock (what I call OEM+) and just mod for correction and functional improvement. My initial thought is to keep the sequential turbo's and go for around 350-370 as my ultimate goal. As I absolutely do enjoy cars and coffee etc, I have found my greatest joy to be track days. This is partly what is worrying me about pulling the trigger, as I assume there are added costs. I am not the type of enthusiast who will baby a performance car and I enjoy "doing what the car was designed to do". I have been watching the FD market for about 2.5 years, I have generally seen a lot of super nice low mileage cars or "rollers". Neither is right for me based on price point or hassle/expense. To add additional context for maintenance, I am a weekend warrior that can do just about anything car related (wiring, engine builds etc etc). While I have a ton to learn about rotary engines, I believe that I can accomplish anything with the proper instructions and would not have to source any mechanic work. Any feedback/advice/reality checks would be helpful from FD owners about my budget and what it would take to achieve my goal. I just need more data to make a decision. It may come down to the fact that I am just not rich enough to own one in my lifetime. However, I am trying to figure out if there is an option to find some type of "sweet spot" in the market that may work for me, as I am okay with a nice condition higher mileage car etc. I would have to liquidate both of my current fun cars to do this. Both are currently working and completely enjoyable, so it’s a big life decision. Thanks!
I always appreciate when people close out threads on forums so I'm coming back to close the loop. Ultimately, this info helped me be realistic about my decision and ownership strategy so I appreciate everyone who replied. Based on my budget and what I gathered from others' experiences, I narrowed it down to deciding between finding the nice well-kept street car vs getting a cheaper base chassis and making it a mildy prepped track rat with sufficient bells and whistles (doing it right). For myself, I ruled out the idea of getting a mediocre example and trying to do both goals as I think I would be frustrated. I came to the conclusion that tracking the FD would be my secondary idea/goal for owning the car after I did some soul searching. I realized that my primary goal was to have a really nice one and build it as OEM+ and enjoy every aspect of performance without actually putting the car on the track. Purchasing a gutted or track-prepped FD just didn't appeal to me and it kind of defeated what I admire about them personally. I concluded that the idea of having both a nice well-kept version that was track-ready was simply not in my budget.
Fact is, in 2021, tracking an FD is a serious uphill decision for a lot of reasons - the cooling issues, the cost of ownership/parts and finding one, in general, is now very tough on it's own (the hunt was stressful for me). For the 0-3 times I do track days a year (simply for fun), it really doesn't make sense for me to add that extra cost and shortened life of parts on the car. These are now officially "rare" cars and tracking a rare car is a serious financial decision. It would be cheaper and easier for me to track something else with less complexity and rarity. In the short term, I will be experimenting with tracking my 05 STI and may get a dedicated trailered beater track car (like a Miata) in the future. So my advice to others who want to bring an FD to the track would be to understand that these cars are not really track-ready to begin with, adding on the age of the car and ability to find them, you really need to be pursuing a special dream of tracking one or following a primary goal. It is possible to take a "street" FD on the track but I'm not sure if it's really sustainable idea, in the end, to track the car year after year in that format. Even if you can afford it (most probably cannot), the hassle of trouble and time is still a huge cost to be prepared for and dedicated to. In my opinion, these cars are still completely enjoyable without ever going on a track (although I bet it's quite an experience).
After many months of looking prior, I've had my FD since March and I'm absolutely loving this car. I already put in many hours of wrench time and I am just about wrapping up my "stage 1" of getting the basics sorted and putting some personal touches on the car. It's a 93 Touring with around 53k. I will be taking my time to choose the right parts and mod around the OEM+ theme. So far I feel that I definitely made the right decision and I'm stoked be officially be part of the community!
i did a little spreadsheet for just that, it would end up a NASA ST/TT car. i spent $17k. i assume the shell is free, but you get new engine (not rebuilt), i rebuilt a turbo, rebuilt trans, new diff, bushings, a set of Ohlins, radiators, oil coolers, seats etc. its a bit bare bones because it would be just a race car.
obviously it does depend on what you start with, and how fast you need it to be done. mine is like all new off the trailer, but it could be done in stages, and it would cost more, but you would have longer to do it.
i'm not sure what ST/TT class you'd be in, it depends on the HP, you either end up light with no hp, or big power and heavy
$30k up front and $5-10k a year easy, depending on how much you run and break. It's pretty tough to keep the stock twins on the track. You'll have to ditch AC and prioritize cooling, hopefully with a nice ducted vmount setup. You really can't do anything more than HPDE and autoX with OEM++ build. If you run skinny tires, you might could wade on in.
These cars are small, but you can fit a surprising amount of money inside.
$30k up front and $5-10k a year easy, depending on how much you run and break. It's pretty tough to keep the stock twins on the track. You'll have to ditch AC and prioritize cooling, hopefully with a nice ducted vmount setup. You really can't do anything more than HPDE and autoX with OEM++ build. If you run skinny tires, you might could wade on in.
These cars are small, but you can fit a surprising amount of money inside.
Lol - so I have heard! Could you elaborate regarding the issue with running the stock twins on the track? Also, I don't have any context for the comment on doing more than HPDE & Autocross, could you provide more detail? I have 2 local (50 min away) tracks that I have been doing Track Night in America (3 x 20min sessions). Is your comment about staying cool?
Also, I am completely fine with ditching AC.
Lol - so I have heard! Could you elaborate regarding the issue with running the stock twins on the track? Also, I don't have any context for the comment on doing more than HPDE & Autocross, could you provide more detail? I have 2 local (50 min away) tracks that I have been doing Track Night in America (3 x 20min sessions). Is your comment about staying cool?
Also, I am completely fine with ditching AC.
During periods of sustained hard driving (track days), the twins become a heat trap. This shortens the useful life of the twins. Single turbo conversions are popular on track focused cars because you can make decisions that allow you to better manage heat. HPDE is an initialism for High Performance Driving Academy; what you described (Track Night in America) is an equivalent to HPDE. It sounds like you will not be participating in sanctioned races but will be doing multiple track day events per year, which should keep your operating budget down.
Your budget (if not including cost of a car) is pretty solid if you're resourceful and patient. But if you haven't, you might consider shopping around for a track focused car someone is looking to unload. Could save you a lot of money and effort.
its the first step toward getting a racing license, although it is also good to learn how to drive quickly in traffic, and get some car control skills.
its the first step toward getting a racing license, although it is also good to learn how to drive quickly in traffic, and get some car control skills.
Thanks for correcting me; I was apparently typing faster than I was thinking..
HPDE also can be High Performance Driving Event... Also called a Track Day. Not always a means toward a racing licence, but more commonly just a fun, safe environment to explore the limits of your car, test new mods, find problems in need of improvement (like oil pressure drop in corners or fuel starvation in left hand corners in the FD) ... And of course a great environment to hang out with like minded car geeks like ourselves. 😋
$30k up front and $5-10k a year easy, depending on how much you run and break. It's pretty tough to keep the stock twins on the track. You'll have to ditch AC and prioritize cooling, hopefully with a nice ducted vmount setup. You really can't do anything more than HPDE and autoX with OEM++ build. If you run skinny tires, you might could wade on in.
These cars are small, but you can fit a surprising amount of money inside.
Spot on with cost estimates. Assuming the OP wants to do HPDE only a couple times a year he can get away with using the stock twins on track. I’ve gone thru plenty of sets and issues with the twins but single turbo on track isn’t all rainbows and strippers either.
OP, how experienced are you in track driving? That will make a big difference in how the car holds up. If you’re beginner or intermediate level and using sticky street tires then a stock twins and reasonably built car will hold up pretty well. If you’re and advanced driver running slicks that will change rapidly. Also the number of events you do each year will compound the costs and wear.
But seriously, as others have mentioned/suggested it depends completely on what you consider 'track ready'. If it were me personally I'd budget 20k on a car, 3 grand or so on simple cooling system bits (if done properly a vmount is by no means necessary, though it is superior) and just drive it. After that squirrel away 10k as a rainy day fund and tack on 4k ish a year on upkeep and upgrades. You don't need to go whole hog on your first outting, I think thats why so many cars turn in to bigger shitboxes and money pits than realistically should.
Spot on with cost estimates. Assuming the OP wants to do HPDE only a couple times a year he can get away with using the stock twins on track. I’ve gone thru plenty of sets and issues with the twins but single turbo on track isn’t all rainbows and strippers either.
OP, how experienced are you in track driving? That will make a big difference in how the car holds up. If you’re beginner or intermediate level and using sticky street tires then a stock twins and reasonably built car will hold up pretty well. If you’re and advanced driver running slicks that will change rapidly. Also the number of events you do each year will compound the costs and wear.
Thanks to everyone that replied so far. This has been very helpful. In regards to the SCCA track night America events, over the last few years I have done 1-2 a year on average. I'm on the east cost so our seasons are short. I am right at the point where I am consistently getting point bys in the intermediate sessions. So I may begin enrolling only in advanced next year. My current track car is a turbo Integra. Power is around 300/290 and I am pushing it hard at this point. I am very familiar with watching and fighting heat each track day as well unfortunately. For tires, I am running Nitto NT01's and I don't think I can go back to street tires at this point. Let me know your thoughts with the added context.
Originally Posted by dguy
More than you can afford pal. Mazda.
But seriously, as others have mentioned/suggested it depends completely on what you consider 'track ready'. If it were me personally I'd budget 20k on a car, 3 grand or so on simple cooling system bits (if done properly a vmount is by no means necessary, though it is superior) and just drive it. After that squirrel away 10k as a rainy day fund and tack on 4k ish a year on upkeep and upgrades. You don't need to go whole hog on your first outting, I think thats why so many cars turn in to bigger shitboxes and money pits than realistically should.
That's another great quote lol. Yeah, ultimately I'm looking for something that can be driven on the street but can hold it's own on the track if I push my own skill levels. Less is definitely more for me, at the same time I feel like upgrades to brakes, suspension, seat/harness/bar, tires are essentials. Those are basics for any car. Beyond that, I wanted to understand what is smart vs stupid with FD's on the track for expectations. I'm starting to get the idea here. I'm wondering if it would make more sense to look for one that needs a new motor and start from there.
Here's a turn key car that would fit your purposes. I also have one that's beat up for 15k but it needs paint work etc.... has all the cooling mods and makes about 350 HP. The 1st one you'd feel bad about hitting the tire wall but the second one you'd just have one more reason to improve it
Thanks to everyone that replied so far. This has been very helpful. In regards to the SCCA track night America events, over the last few years I have done 1-2 a year on average. I'm on the east cost so our seasons are short. I am right at the point where I am consistently getting point bys in the intermediate sessions. So I may begin enrolling only in advanced next year. My current track car is a turbo Integra. Power is around 300/290 and I am pushing it hard at this point. I am very familiar with watching and fighting heat each track day as well unfortunately. For tires, I am running Nitto NT01's and I don't think I can go back to street tires at this point. Let me know your thoughts with the added context.
That's another great quote lol. Yeah, ultimately I'm looking for something that can be driven on the street but can hold it's own on the track if I push my own skill levels. Less is definitely more for me, at the same time I feel like upgrades to brakes, suspension, seat/harness/bar, tires are essentials. Those are basics for any car. Beyond that, I wanted to understand what is smart vs stupid with FD's on the track for expectations. I'm starting to get the idea here. I'm wondering if it would make more sense to look for one that needs a new motor and start from there.
You’re on the correct path. You’ll need to upgrade engine/oil cooling, brakes, suspension, seats/safety, tires to have a consistent and reliable track FD. If you’re good with sticking to Nittos and reasonable power levels then you can enjoy a twin turbo street/track car that will be fun and fast. The most specific things to the FD are having a good aftermarket radiator, big dual oil coolers, and upgraded intercooler at a minimum. A/C can’t stay unfortunately, and a catalytic converter won’t survive track use.
As you get faster and do more events you’ll need to then go further and consider trans and diff cooling and how often you’ll have to remove/service/replace the turbos. I have a build thread on here that would be applicable for you to read. Im also currently replacing the yet again blown turbo gaskets. Typically it’s about once a year for me.
Great deal and would be perfect for an economical track build. The super important things like cooling and tune are done. Tuned by the great Ray Wilson (owner of PFS/now out of business).
Bumping this thread! So I am happy to say that I am finally on the hunt for one. Looking to start with a clean nearly stock car as a base on I'm still set on modifying cautiously as a purist, oem + etc
I am planning to eventually track in events that I previously described (SCCA Tracknight, 20 minutes sessions, at 7/10 or 8/10) 1-3 times a year and maybe an SCCA time trial once being one of those events. At this point, I am running with the advanced group with my current car (Turbo Integra) and would continue to run a Street Legal R compound tire like the Nitto NT01. I know all too well the importance of learning with less power and investing in reliability, safety, brakes and suspension and slowly build up seat time. Additionally, I'll be using my budget to invest in these base items and won't be able to go single turbo for quite a while either.
It was kind of stated previously, but I wanted to raise the question more specifically to properly align my expectations. - Will it be a realistic to track the twins reliably with the following mods and not overheat?
- conservative tune @ 10psi with base mods (or less boost?)
- vented hood
- oil coolers
- v mount setup
- no cats or ac
Plenty of people have made a mild-twins setup like that work at the track. Ditching emissions, accessories, and creature comforts combined with a priority on water/oil cooling will keep you on the track. That's basically what the old Bathurst cars and Pettit racing cars did, and they were competitive back then. You will need to get good at swapping the turbos, though. And if you run big tires or race tires you'll start chewing up the stock driveline and brakes.
Stock brakes (with proper pads and rotors) are awesome in the FD, and I wouldn't advise changing that unless you simply cannot stop the way you want. I just took my FD on the track in the beginning of the month, and stopping was fantastic. Of course, my car is stripped-out interior, full manual brakes (pedal box) and no ABS. Stock brakes (I rebuilt them) all around. I never hooked-up an A/C, and I'm running BNR Stage 3 sequential twins, Sakebomb dual 19-row coolers, methanol injection, and the full Greddy V-Mount. Power (I'd have to guess) is currently in the 300-320 range, and a proper tune will not have you boosting too soon and too much at the lower RPM. It runs cool.
Will it be a realistic to track the twins reliably with the following mods and not overheat?
- conservative tune @ 10psi with base mods (or less boost?)
- vented hood
- oil coolers
- v mount setup
- no cats or ac
Yes. I wouldn't gut a good stock example though (if you can). Look for one that's already halfway there (it may be less expensive as well). And keep at least a hi-flow cat, otherwise you'll have boost issues A ported wastegate will also help keep boost rock solid
05-03-19, 11:16 AM
