Why 3rd Gen Engines don't last
09-06-01, 05:20 PM
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Why 3rd Gen Engines don't last
I was looking on Autotrader at 3rd gen (93-95) RX-7's and noticed that the majority of the cars state that the engines have been replaced, most around 50K miles. What's up with that? Shouldn't they last longer than that? Seems awful costly to own a car whose engine needs to be replaced that regularly.
09-06-01, 07:17 PM
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Re: Why 3rd Gen Engines don't last
Well, from what I've gathered in the last month or so since I started actively looking for an RX7 and selling my Talon, I've come to a few conclusions.
People are lazy. This is NOT the car to be lazy with. It needs maintenance - and quite a bit of it. To me, this is true of any TRUE sports car (usually older ones). People have become spoiled by their "100,000 mile tune-up" SUVs - they just want to point it and go.
There's quite a few gremlins that've been problems with the 93-95 RX7s. A few were fixed through recalls, most weren't. Overheating and detonation in these engines is instant death - meaning not checking the coolant level or getting a bad tank of gas can have some very negative affects, especially when some inbred yahoo gets the car and decides to crank up the boost, like his cousin / father did in their T-type.
Things I've been looking for in a new (to me) RX7 as I've been searching are repair records and reliability mods. I've seen enough cars with 70k+ on them that drive ok, but show the signs of neglect and abuse. Look for an owner who knows what they've got. You'll pay more for the car, but you get what you pay for.
But to answer your original question, DK's right - stupid people buying the car not knowing what they're getting into and blowing them up. I KNOW these engines will last if maintained...
People are lazy. This is NOT the car to be lazy with. It needs maintenance - and quite a bit of it. To me, this is true of any TRUE sports car (usually older ones). People have become spoiled by their "100,000 mile tune-up" SUVs - they just want to point it and go.
There's quite a few gremlins that've been problems with the 93-95 RX7s. A few were fixed through recalls, most weren't. Overheating and detonation in these engines is instant death - meaning not checking the coolant level or getting a bad tank of gas can have some very negative affects, especially when some inbred yahoo gets the car and decides to crank up the boost, like his cousin / father did in their T-type.
Things I've been looking for in a new (to me) RX7 as I've been searching are repair records and reliability mods. I've seen enough cars with 70k+ on them that drive ok, but show the signs of neglect and abuse. Look for an owner who knows what they've got. You'll pay more for the car, but you get what you pay for.
But to answer your original question, DK's right - stupid people buying the car not knowing what they're getting into and blowing them up. I KNOW these engines will last if maintained...
Originally posted by JohnDallas
I was looking on Autotrader at 3rd gen (93-95) RX-7's and noticed that the majority of the cars state that the engines have been replaced, most around 50K miles. What's up with that? Shouldn't they last longer than that? Seems awful costly to own a car whose engine needs to be replaced that regularly.
I was looking on Autotrader at 3rd gen (93-95) RX-7's and noticed that the majority of the cars state that the engines have been replaced, most around 50K miles. What's up with that? Shouldn't they last longer than that? Seems awful costly to own a car whose engine needs to be replaced that regularly.
09-07-01, 01:23 AM
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Besides lack of maint. on owner's part, I think the lack of technical knowledge also plays a good part.
A lot of FDs had reman. motors put in bc during the last 5 yrs or so, the dealers didn't know how to fix engine problems. Since quite a bit of these cars were covered under factory or aftermarket warranty, the motors were just replaced when they can be rebuilt or when the problem has little to do with the motor. It's the typical replace everything shot gun approach to fix things.
Owners didn't car bc they are getting a new engine! Mechanics get paid so what the hell. THe warranty inspector don't know jack about rotary and 40 ft of vac line (much like the mechanic) so lots of engines were replaced.
I personally look for cars that are well taken care of by a loving and knowledgeable owner, rather than a low mile or late model or new engine FD.
A lot of FDs had reman. motors put in bc during the last 5 yrs or so, the dealers didn't know how to fix engine problems. Since quite a bit of these cars were covered under factory or aftermarket warranty, the motors were just replaced when they can be rebuilt or when the problem has little to do with the motor. It's the typical replace everything shot gun approach to fix things.
Owners didn't car bc they are getting a new engine! Mechanics get paid so what the hell. THe warranty inspector don't know jack about rotary and 40 ft of vac line (much like the mechanic) so lots of engines were replaced.
I personally look for cars that are well taken care of by a loving and knowledgeable owner, rather than a low mile or late model or new engine FD.
09-07-01, 08:57 AM
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120k miles on the original engine and going... and going... and going... and going...
I have also been running 13.5psi for over a year on stock twins and stock IC.
and i get city/hwy mix of about 16mpg still
I have also been running 13.5psi for over a year on stock twins and stock IC.
and i get city/hwy mix of about 16mpg still
09-07-01, 09:11 AM
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Originally posted by djantlive
Besides lack of maint. on owner's part, I think the lack of technical knowledge also plays a good part.
A lot of FDs had reman. motors put in bc during the last 5 yrs or so, the dealers didn't know how to fix engine problems. Since quite a bit of these cars were covered under factory or aftermarket warranty, the motors were just replaced when they can be rebuilt or when the problem has little to do with the motor. It's the typical replace everything shot gun approach to fix things.
Owners didn't car bc they are getting a new engine! Mechanics get paid so what the hell. THe warranty inspector don't know jack about rotary and 40 ft of vac line (much like the mechanic) so lots of engines were replaced.
I personally look for cars that are well taken care of by a loving and knowledgeable owner, rather than a low mile or late model or new engine FD.
Besides lack of maint. on owner's part, I think the lack of technical knowledge also plays a good part.
A lot of FDs had reman. motors put in bc during the last 5 yrs or so, the dealers didn't know how to fix engine problems. Since quite a bit of these cars were covered under factory or aftermarket warranty, the motors were just replaced when they can be rebuilt or when the problem has little to do with the motor. It's the typical replace everything shot gun approach to fix things.
Owners didn't car bc they are getting a new engine! Mechanics get paid so what the hell. THe warranty inspector don't know jack about rotary and 40 ft of vac line (much like the mechanic) so lots of engines were replaced.
I personally look for cars that are well taken care of by a loving and knowledgeable owner, rather than a low mile or late model or new engine FD.
09-07-01, 10:25 AM
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I believe that the main reason for so many engine failures/replacement are some very poor design/manufacturing decisions by Mazda. The first being the precat, if emissions were such a big issue, they should have just put in a bigger more efficient main cat. The precat was prone to clogging which results in MUCHO hotter engine conditions (primarily due to the fact that it was a mere foot and a half away from the turbos) for an engine which already ran pretty darn hot. Second the plastic AST was prone to breakage due to the high heat of the coolant (caused by the high heat that the engine makes and probably also by a clogged cat). Third the radiator is really a subpar part. It's got plastic ends, I've never seen another car whose radiator had plastic ends. Fourth could have to be the fact that the engine is more or less sealed shut when the hood is closed. Where's the heat from this engine supposed to go? And finally a very very complexed turbo control system (there are more than 80 vacuum hoses on this car, if any of them develop a leak or become disconnected will dramatically change how the car performs, I've heard that a good deal of engine replacements on third gens could have been avoided if the dealer had just check the entire turbo control system). This is why everyones first recommendations on modifications are generally to get the operating temperature down (downpipe), to make the cooling system more reliable (aluminum AST and aftermarket radiator), and to make the turbo control system less prone to develop leaks (silicon vacuum hose, or possibly going non-sequential).
This was compounded with not training dealers enough on how to diagnose problems and take care of third gens.
But can you really blame a company that created a car as great as the might RX
This was compounded with not training dealers enough on how to diagnose problems and take care of third gens.
But can you really blame a company that created a car as great as the might RX
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09-07-01, 12:28 PM
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Don't forget about female drivers you use them to get groceries, and run with a boost problem for 20k miles without evey knowing it becasue the last time they stepped on the gas they became scared.
09-07-01, 01:17 PM
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Actually, sometimes with rotaries, **** happens. I have a friend with a 3rd gen and the engine just died on him. Evidently a coolant seal went out. He knows a good deal about these cars and actually worked for a company that makes RX-7 exclusive parts. This guy definately knew his ****, but the seal went out because of the heat here in NC. He was going to put an aftermarket radiator in during the summer, but the engine didn't last that long. I always thought that if you took care of a rotary it would last just as long as a regular engine, but he babied his 7 and it still gave out. That scared me away from 3rd gens until i start makin decent $. If he couldn't keep it running, there's no way i could.
09-07-01, 01:55 PM
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To blanket state that the cars don't last isn't accurate. Certain people experienced problems with the third generation turbo system and sometimes seals. It's very rare that a warped rotor housing was the cause of failure on a stock car.
There are formula Mazda cars out there who can run on the same rotary engine for two and sometimes more season without needing a rebuild. That is unheard of for any piston counterpart I know of.
To the poster who had never seen another car that had a radiator with plastic end caps, is this your fist Mazda? Every one I've owned has had plastic end caps, and every radiator has failed. My first modification to my RX-7 was a comp radiator.
These engines require understanding and routine maintenance. No two ways about it. But let's look at the approach that made this car so much more special than it's Japanese quasi-exotic cousins. The others took a road car and made it faster while Mazda tasked their engineers with taking a race car and making it street legal.
My car has 111,348 miles and is still one of the strongest I've driven. It is the strongest for it's modification level that I've driven.
If you're into buying one there are two approaches depending on your needs. If you want a daily driver you need to buy a car that has been really well taken care of by an enthusiast. If you want a project/race car, buy the cheapest car you can with a good engine and turbos and replace every gasket from the block out yourself. You'll get to know the car and you'll be assuring it's integrity.
My $0.02, and it's worth almost exactly that!
There are formula Mazda cars out there who can run on the same rotary engine for two and sometimes more season without needing a rebuild. That is unheard of for any piston counterpart I know of.
To the poster who had never seen another car that had a radiator with plastic end caps, is this your fist Mazda? Every one I've owned has had plastic end caps, and every radiator has failed. My first modification to my RX-7 was a comp radiator.
These engines require understanding and routine maintenance. No two ways about it. But let's look at the approach that made this car so much more special than it's Japanese quasi-exotic cousins. The others took a road car and made it faster while Mazda tasked their engineers with taking a race car and making it street legal.
My car has 111,348 miles and is still one of the strongest I've driven. It is the strongest for it's modification level that I've driven.
If you're into buying one there are two approaches depending on your needs. If you want a daily driver you need to buy a car that has been really well taken care of by an enthusiast. If you want a project/race car, buy the cheapest car you can with a good engine and turbos and replace every gasket from the block out yourself. You'll get to know the car and you'll be assuring it's integrity.
My $0.02, and it's worth almost exactly that!
09-07-01, 02:28 PM
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Here's my .02:
I bought my 93 VR Base model in '97. It was a lease car with 49k on it. I drove it until last March (when the clutch went out) and decided to rebuild the engine & turbos when upgrading the clutch to ACT and an 8.5# flywheel. The car had 114k on it before the rebuild. From what I have read and heard, this is pretty awesome! It just goes to show you that when you take care of something, it lasts.
BTW, The rebuild is working great!
I bought my 93 VR Base model in '97. It was a lease car with 49k on it. I drove it until last March (when the clutch went out) and decided to rebuild the engine & turbos when upgrading the clutch to ACT and an 8.5# flywheel. The car had 114k on it before the rebuild. From what I have read and heard, this is pretty awesome! It just goes to show you that when you take care of something, it lasts.
BTW, The rebuild is working great!
09-07-01, 02:52 PM
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When I got my '93 Touring in July of '97 it had been a leased car and I bought it from a salesman at a Ford dealer where it had been "traded". It had 54K miles and the salesman had just had a Mazda dealer do new turbos. I learned on it, read everything I could find, quickly added a turbo timer and boost gauge, and it ran OK until April of 2000 when an apex seal blew at 104K miles. I towed it to Pettit in Fort Lauderdale and they rebuilt the engine, did the tie-wrap of vacuum lines, 3 MM apex seals, etc., new clutch, new turbos, street port, light alum flywheel, short shifter, downpipe, cat-back etc... the usual goodies. It still had the original radiator. In June of this year the stock radiator started leaking so I put in a Fluidyne, and after getting it buttoned up found the water pump was leaking, too, so went back in and did a new one of those. Now it runs cooler and better. It now has 134K miles on it, needs a paint job (factory red is becoming pink) but the bad looking paint and dual exhaust tips makes it a sleeper. I don't let just anybody drive it, even my wife. It takes a caring owner to take care of, but the rewards are great. It has had Protec-R in every tank of gas since the Pettit rebuild and I also put X1-R in the oil, 4 oz per change. It's my daily driver and I don't even like to be seen in my wife's Maxima, so I'm hooked. If the RX-8 turns out to be less problematic, I'll get my wife one to replace the Maxima. Where else but a rotary can someone get the performance of an RX-7 for $17K (back in '97) and although I've put another $10K into it, it's still a bargain in my book. It's not a car for just anyone, but it fills it niche better than anything else I know of. Long live the RX-7!
09-07-01, 05:51 PM
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Well, I got mine when it was 89k 2 years ago and the turbos were done b4 i bought hte car. Since then only things that kicked the bucket were...
-clutch (replaced with 6puck w/springs and a 8.5# flywheel)
-radiator (replaced with fluydine)
-5th gear synchro (replaced)
then at around 93k miles i boosted it up to 13.5 psi and put in a DP, MP, Catback. at around 100k miles i put in a power pulley and the pettit intake.
the clutch went at around 110k. I replaced the rear main seal along with the seal that sits in the stationary gear. Then the car leaked no more oil AT ALL. Now the oil pan is leaking a little, but it's the original engine so it doesn't have the upgrade.
Car has 120k miles on it. It's my daily driver. Neg vacuum at 800rpm is -15psi. Raced a Turbo AWD laser that ran a 12.9 on the track and we were pretty tied. Have autoX'd it 5 times and took it to Homestead road course once.
-clutch (replaced with 6puck w/springs and a 8.5# flywheel)
-radiator (replaced with fluydine)
-5th gear synchro (replaced)
then at around 93k miles i boosted it up to 13.5 psi and put in a DP, MP, Catback. at around 100k miles i put in a power pulley and the pettit intake.
the clutch went at around 110k. I replaced the rear main seal along with the seal that sits in the stationary gear. Then the car leaked no more oil AT ALL. Now the oil pan is leaking a little, but it's the original engine so it doesn't have the upgrade.
Car has 120k miles on it. It's my daily driver. Neg vacuum at 800rpm is -15psi. Raced a Turbo AWD laser that ran a 12.9 on the track and we were pretty tied. Have autoX'd it 5 times and took it to Homestead road course once.
09-07-01, 06:44 PM
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i just bought(11months ago ) my car with 87k miles. its at the shop getting the engine rebuilt, new trans, turbos, everything. it had original everything except stuff that was modded. i hope it runs for another 90k miles before needing another rebuild 
) my car with 87k miles. its at the shop getting the engine rebuilt, new trans, turbos, everything. it had original everything except stuff that was modded. i hope it runs for another 90k miles before needing another rebuild
Last edited by vosko; 09-07-01 at 06:48 PM.
09-07-01, 10:16 PM
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most of these car are beat on and neglected. and they are turning into big heaps of crap. mine has 89k miles on it and the only things that have been done are the front brakes, radiator (eaten by fan) and the rear main seal/clutch.
it is even starting to smell new again on the inside....
mike
it is even starting to smell new again on the inside....
mike
