Ok, just about to do my upgrade for brakes and need some advice. I'm going to be using my stock 16x8 rims cause I ain't got no money to get new ones for now. Anyways, need some opinions:

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Rotors: Bremco Crossdrilled vs. Slotted...Advantages. Should I go for these?

Calipers: Which ones? Red? how will they look on stock rims?

Pads: Any recommendations here?

Anything else I should check on or change?
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I run everything stock and want much greater braking power with no fade. I have 38k on my stocks now and need to get rid of them.

franko

 

I recently did xdrilled and slotted, painted the calipers red and sanded the "mazda" back down so its silver on red, SS brake lines, Hawk HPS pads, speedbleeders and DOT 4 fluid.

well worth every penny!

the rotors are always debated. After 6 months or so, i have no cracks on the rotors. The car stops better than before, how much of it has to do with the rotors? probably not much, but they look 100 times better than solid rotors (imho).

the hawk hps pads are great as are the SS lines and DOT 4.

paint the calipers red, without a doubt! take your time and prep them well. i used 500 deg. heat paint from the auto store - don;t waste money on the foila tec stuff.

 

I think the rotor debates are usually between people who road race and people who don't. It seems clear to me that drilled and slotted rotors are fine for street, AutoX, and drag racing. But they crack if you road race. There is no doubt that they look better -- they do. There are instances of drilled and/or slotted rotors that work on the track (big brakes, Porsche, etc.), but the difference is that they are also bigger rotors. Stock-sized FD rotors do not last when drilled and/or slotted (this one may still be debatable) and used for heavy track use.

I have craked several sets of solid-face rotors on the track, and drilling and slotting are known to make the problem worse, so I stay with solid-face rotors. Cryo treating has produced a very noticable improvement in rotor and pad life for me, so you may consider that if you are having trouble with cracked rotors. I get my rotors and pads done at http://www.cryoscience.com/.

Summary: drilled and slotted are fine UNLESS you road race.

I have used Hawk HPS and HP+ pads on the street. HP+ dust too much and still fade on the track, so I don't recommend them. If you don't care about dust, the HP+ does give excellent pedal feel for steet, AutoX, and light track use (first few times, driver's school, slow track). HPS don't feel as nice, but they are still a very good street pad at a very good price. They dust much less than HP+, but they do still dust a bit. I've got some EBC Green pads that I plan to use on the street when my big brakes arrive, but I don't have any reports on them yet. Their marketing indicates they got good reviews from car magazines, so I'm going to try them. Rishie (forum name: ARD T2) sells them if you want to try some EBCs. For Hawk pads, I recommend these vendors:
http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/
http://www.tirerack.com/

SS brake lines made a big difference in pedal feel on my car, so I think they are a good upgrade. I got mine from http://www.brakeco.com/. Brake fluid is important and for that I recommend Valvoline SynPower ($5 for 32oz at local auto parts store) for street and light track use. The Valvoline doesn't hold up as well as I would have liked for heavy track use, so I recommend Neo HP fluid (from http://www.bakerprecision.com/) for that. My big brakes are coming with some Motul fluid that is probably excellent, but I haven't tried it yet, so I don't have a first-hand report on its performance yet.

The last thing that you need to do is make sure you bleed the brakes well. Speedbleeders (http://www.speedbleeder.com/) makes this procedure and easy, one-person operation. However, speedbleeders don't work well when there is a lot of air in the system, like when you install the brake lines. Bleed once with the stock bleeders after you install the lines, before you install the speedbleeders. I had high hopes for my MityVac vacuum bleeder, but it doesn't work very well. I have heard a lot of good things about pressure bleeders, but I haven't tried one yet. A pressure bleeder will probably work fine with a lot of air in the system, so you might opt for this instead of the speedbleeders if you plan to install SS lines. I have also heard that some tapping on the fittings with a very light hammer helps free trapped air bubbles when bleeding -- you might try this if you can't get a firm pedal after bleeding.

I left my calipers bare in hopes that they might cool better without paint, but I know lots of people have painted their calipers and they look cool when done well. It seems you don't have to use special caliper paint (like Folia-Tec), as many people have done it with Testors model paint or simply spray paint with good results. Polishing might be an attractive option as well, but is probably harder to care for. What color is your car?

Sorry for the long post, but that is about my complete brain dump on steetable brakes.

-Max

 

point well made about the rotors and cracking - i thought i had put a "disclaimer" in my post that i spend 99% of the time on the street and not on the track - as you point out, on the track is a different world!

 

Thanks maxcooper, great reply.

 

i have the xdrilled and slotted rotors, and have been to the track a couple times on them...

so far, this is what i conclude:
Decrease in brake fade is definately noticeable. stopping faster/shorter is questionable ( they "feel" the same). mines havent cracked, but like i said, ive only been twice with this setup.

i dont know if gettin the rotors for autox is worth it, because not only does it put you in a whole new class, but your brakes dont really get hot enough to have much fade in the first place.

They do look cool though!!!

 

I am sure it is possible to go to the track without cracking up the rotors, but as you go more you tend to start braking harder and they fail. For the same reason, it is usually okay to use street pads for your first few events, but inevitably you start braking harder and need to upgrade.

I have seen at least one forum member go to the track with cross-drilled rotors and have them crack up in one day. I've never seen a rotor crack apart, but they start getting little cracks in the swept area. You might not even notice unless you look closely.

-Max

 

Agree with Max 100%.

I use non drilled or slotted rotors for heavy track use. When the rotors are fresh, they do fine. Once they start wearing thin, they start to develop hairline cracks, called heat checks. Both Carbotech Panther Plus and Hawk Black pads cause this heat stress. Hawk Blues are the hardest on rotors for track use, but you get a good amount of torque from the blues.

I'd like point out that BETTER tires decrease braking distance NOT better brakes.

Better brakes just help with brake torque, and fade resistance. They don't do anything for stopping distance.

Go do stopping tests using Kumho Ecsta 711s or Nitto 555s. Then switch to Hoosier R3S03s. You'll see what I mean!

TIRES ARE EVERYTHING, BOYZ!

 

not too sure about this statement. example: wouldnt a race brake pad stop the car faster than stock brake pads? since they are grippier... Or how about big brake kits?? More brake torque=more brake power=shorter stopping distance.... doenst it?

Tires do play a big role, but im just saying that brakes also play a roll in stopping faster...and since most of us have ABS, the tire factor doesnt play a big of role as NON ABS

 

Given that the stock brakes will lock the wheels (Or at least trigger the ABS) with any of the Performance Brake Pads then the only way to shorten braking distance is to increase TIRE Grip. Once you have so much tire grip that they over power the brakes is when you need bigger/stronger brakes to decrease stopping distances further.

I now run EBC Greens on the street (and at my one track day) and while the do have better feel & equal or better grip then my Hawk HPS did they (in spite of EBC's claim to the contrary) dust just as much as the Hawks, although the dust does seem to be eaiser to clean than the Hawk dust was.

I run Brembo Stock replacement rotors on the front and Ikuda on the rear My next set will be cryo treated.

 

Race pads will not stop very well when cold. This is why you don't use race pads on the street. Again race pads were designed for track use, which means HEAT. HEAT means fade. FADE is BAD in a race application.

Grippy, you mean higher coefficient of friction, yes? This translates as higher torque, which translates into less brake pedal effort NOT shorter stopping distance...

Big brake kits help with reducing brake fade, and multiplying brake pedal effort (thus reducing pedal effort).

Larger rotors act as huge heat sinks. It's all about physics. Motion is 1/2 momentum times velocity squared. If you want to decrease this motion, you must convert the kinetic energy into heat.

Heat must go somewhere. In a racing application, the heat goes to the rotors, pads, brake fluid. The first line of heat soak goes to rotors. If the rotors don't dissipate the the heat, then the heat goes to the calipers. If the calipers don't dissipate the heat, then the fluid boils, and you've got NO BRAKE PEDAL...VERY BAD WHILE GOING 140 MPH DOWN THE MAIN STRAIGHT!

Multi-piston calipers found in big brake kits help in multiplying the pedal effort. More pistons don't do anything for stopping distance.

Once again BETTER TIRES DECREASE STOPPING DISTANCE NOT BIGGER BRAKES.

BIGGER BRAKES HELP WITH HEAT DISSIPATION AND PROMOTE CONSISTENT BRAKING PERFORMANCE IN A ROAD RACING APPLICATION!

 

Look Great Too!

 

so theres basically nothing you can do to the brakes to get the car to stop faster/shorter?

i understand that once you lock your brakes, then its up to your tires to stop the car. But how about in applications such as ABS or when you do not lock your brakes?

 

"Cryo treating has produced a very noticable improvement in rotor and pad life for me, so you may consider that if you are having trouble with cracked rotors. I get my rotors and pads done at http://www.cryoscience.com/. "

Max, am I understanding you get your pads cryo-treated as well? I get my rotors cryo-treated and definitely agree on the improved wear, but never had it done to my pads. BTW what kind of pads are you using for track?

Thanks,
Ned M

 

DeNguyen writes:
so theres basically nothing you can do to the brakes to get the car to stop faster/shorter?

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I don't necessarily agree with this statement that was made above and by others. Weight has a lot to do with braking. Then, why can't a big ole Ford Expedition with those big fat 245's stop faster than my little 7 with 225's????? Ya, what else can I do to stop shorter and faster?

 

Read the question again my friend...

it says : "so theres basically nothing you can do to THE BRAKES to make the car stop faster/shorter?"


weight reduction is not a BRAKE component.

 

You'll notice pick-up truck and SUV brakes are fairly large compared with an Rx7's stock brakes. Again this is for heat soak, not for better stopping. IF you're descending a mountain pulling your enclosed trailer with FD Rx7 race car, you'll want very large rotors and calipers on our pull vehicle to soak up all the heat that builds up in the brakes from slowing the weight (not momentum and velocity in this case) of the pull vehicle and pull load.

You can still get an Expedition to stop faster. As you know the rubber compound in SUV (Stupid Useless Vehicle) tires are very HARD. This is for mileage considerations. If you had soft rubber compounded tires on 7000-lb vehicles, the tires wouldn't last longer than a few months!

But say you're a pretty rich guy, and you wanted your SUV to perform for a track day, just because you CAN (not because you don't have a proper track vehicle). You could mount 335/35-17 Hoosier R3S03s on 13 x 17 rims all around, install 2-inch OD sway bars fr/rr, lower the ride-height and stiffen the ride with coilovers, and install strut braces fr/rr. Now your Stupid Useless Vehicle would brake and corner better than most passenger cars, wouldn't it??!!

Obviously this is not what you bought your SUV for, but it's a possible option if you wanted to set up your SUV for track racing...

There really isn't much you can do to to the brakes to help your car stop in a shorter distance. The upgraded brake components help you feel the response in the braking, and to battle heat stress. ABS keeps the tires from locking (and completely losing traction--this is a good thing, and outlawed in most racing sanctioning bodies). But ultimately the TIRES MUST BEAR THE BURDEN IN SLOWING AND STOPPING THE VEHICLE. It's that simple.

I'LL SAY IT AGAIN...TIRES ARE EVERYTHING!

This is what cracks me up with you guys buying fancy-*** wheels and big brake systems, and then buying cheap-*** Kumho Ecstas, Nittos, or God forbid...Sumitomos!! It's ok if you're buying for looks...I've got nothing against that. But if you think bigger brakes and lighter, wider wheels will make your car perform WITHOUT PROPER RUBBER, THEN I have a problem with your logic...

It's similar to a CEO hiring all the brightest talent in the world, then skimping on the quality of the work force...the people that actually get the work DONE! Ever wonder why Porsche and Mercedes cars cost so much? It's because Porsche and Mercedes CEOs don't compromise on their workers. They hire the best line workers, and pay them commensurately. In the end the customers benefit in having a superior product.

If you want a complete performance package, don't compromise on the tires!

 

First off, thanks maxcooper for the fantastic info. Never appologize for such quality!

Secondly, am I reading correctly that cross-drilled is bad, umkay? I sure had my eye on the cross-drilled package that SRX7.com sells (got used to the look on sportbikes, I guess). Sure I mostly drive on the street, and religiously do autocrosses, but I'll be having my first track experience at MADS in a couple of months and I don't want the things breaking up. Besides, you never know when you'll find yourself running from the mob or an alien or ex or something and I don't want my brakes failing for ANY reason!!!

My current set of rotors are scored thanks to a previous owner that didn't bother checking pad wear, so I need to do something soon. Thanks for any advice!

 

great thread guys, off to archives