Z32 brake upgrade
11-17-07, 03:06 AM
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Z32 brake upgrade
I've noticed in Japan, that they Replace our front brakes with Z32 300zx/ R32 GT-R
and FD's brakes in the rear
just wondering.. are the Z32's 4 pistons that much better ours?
and FD's brakes in the rear
just wondering.. are the Z32's 4 pistons that much better ours?
11-17-07, 03:57 AM
#4
I keep hearing that all over this forum, but when I first got my car I wasn't all that impressed w/ the braking ability. Plus in head to head magazine comparisons, and games like Forza and Gran turismo the braking of the FC isn't all that impressive either.But then again that was w/ little 205/55/16's
After switching to 225's and deleting ABS, I'm starting to see the light. But like the OP I'd like to know if ZX 4 pots would be enough of an upgrade to be worth the trouble. I mean they were designed to stop the heaviest (or second heaviest) sports car to come out of japan, but what does it take to retrofit them to an FC?
After switching to 225's and deleting ABS, I'm starting to see the light. But like the OP I'd like to know if ZX 4 pots would be enough of an upgrade to be worth the trouble. I mean they were designed to stop the heaviest (or second heaviest) sports car to come out of japan, but what does it take to retrofit them to an FC?
11-17-07, 04:06 AM
#5
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It depends on what you're trying to do...
When people ask about "big brake upgrades", what they are actually looking for is better brake feel.
There is nothing wrong with your brakes if you can jam on the brake pedal and have your wheels lock up.
So, having bigger brakes just locks them up faster.
Racers can have a legit excuse for bigger brakes depending on what kinda racing they are doing.
Brakes can fail due to too much heat; bigger brakes allow the race car to handle the heat.
For a street car, you don't need bigger brakes unless you cannot lock up your tires as the above test describes.
/LECTURE
Going with such an upgrade, it really should be a last option.
I would suggest to upgrade brake pads FIRST.
This will usually do the trick.
Another trick is to run a larger bore brake master cylinder - this changes the way the brakes feel.
-Ted
When people ask about "big brake upgrades", what they are actually looking for is better brake feel.
There is nothing wrong with your brakes if you can jam on the brake pedal and have your wheels lock up.
So, having bigger brakes just locks them up faster.
Racers can have a legit excuse for bigger brakes depending on what kinda racing they are doing.
Brakes can fail due to too much heat; bigger brakes allow the race car to handle the heat.
For a street car, you don't need bigger brakes unless you cannot lock up your tires as the above test describes.
/LECTURE
Going with such an upgrade, it really should be a last option.
I would suggest to upgrade brake pads FIRST.
This will usually do the trick.
Another trick is to run a larger bore brake master cylinder - this changes the way the brakes feel.
-Ted
11-17-07, 06:22 AM
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First thing you need to do is flush the system until there is nothing but clean fluid in it and then see what you think of the brakes. It can make a big difference, when I did the rear disc swap on my GLHS, we had to spend twenty minutes or better pumping out old cruddy fluid. You wouldn't believe the crap that accumulates in a brake system over 20 years, not to mention the fluid does break down over time, get water in it from condensation, which causes rust, etc.
And +1 on the bigger bore master, we do that also on the turbo Dodges for different pedal feel. Running good pads like Hawk or EBC makes a big difference too, so I've been told.
And +1 on the bigger bore master, we do that also on the turbo Dodges for different pedal feel. Running good pads like Hawk or EBC makes a big difference too, so I've been told.
11-17-07, 07:56 AM
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[QUOTE=sharingan 19;7522323] games like Forza and Gran turismo the braking of the FC isn't all that impressive either.But then again that was w/ little 205/55/16's
QUOTE]
Yes, that is an excellent way to evaluate the braking ability of your car.
QUOTE]
Yes, that is an excellent way to evaluate the braking ability of your car.
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11-17-07, 12:20 PM
#8
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Brakes don't stop the car, the tires do. If you want to stop faster, upgrade the tires. If the brakes can't lock the tires then get some better pads. If you're running into heat issues then get better pads and higher temp fluid, but if you're running into temp issues on the street you should probably be arrested. Ducting fresh air to the brakes will also help with temp issues, as will running new full thickness rotors.
If you're wanting more feel, get better pads (yes this has an influence), get some SS lines and build a brake master cylinder brace. That does wonders for the brake feel. I've got SS lines and a brace and my pedal is really nice and firm, and I don't even have the larger TII master cylinder which will make it even firmer.
Flush your brake fluid every couple years at the least no matter what.
If you're wanting more feel, get better pads (yes this has an influence), get some SS lines and build a brake master cylinder brace. That does wonders for the brake feel. I've got SS lines and a brace and my pedal is really nice and firm, and I don't even have the larger TII master cylinder which will make it even firmer.
Flush your brake fluid every couple years at the least no matter what.
11-17-07, 03:28 PM
#9
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
11-17-07, 03:59 PM
#10
Rider of the Sky
As brakes get "better", they increase their stopping power to the point of lockup without locking up. Increasing brake size and balancing it with grippier pad material increases usable stopping power assuming your tires can handle it.
An easy way to wrap the brain around the idea is to image replacing the brake pads with two steel pistons. You'd have almost no stopping ability at all for a wide range of pressure, then suddenly pass the threshold and they'd lock the wheels.
But as with every other part of the car's suspension and braking, you can't increase one thing and get a positive effect without beefing up everything else.
11-17-07, 05:01 PM
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I can certainly agree with the good brakes are more easily controlled than bad brakes argument, but I have trouble visualizing your example.
This is the example that allows me to relate to your point:
my dad's Dodge Stratus vs. my RX7...
Stratus:
I see a stop light turn yellow, I know that the brakes are very weak, grasp the steering wheel firmly with both hands and get both feet on the brake pedal. I then push as hard as I can on the brake pedal in a desperate attempt to stop for the stop light. Due to a strange phase of the moon (or something) I am actually able to get the tires to lock up. When I try to let up on the pedal, I have to move my legs 2 inches to relieve the deflection in the steering wheel and seat (that I am braced against) and actually release the pedal. Result: I have flatspotted a set of tires and slid halfway through an intersection.
RX7: I see the stop light turn yellow, I ease into the brake pedal until I hear a tire chirp, then I maintain a tiny little bit less pressure than slipped the tire. This is all done with one foot on the brake, one hand on the steering wheel and barely any seat deflection, so the brake force can be more easily regulated. Result: a safe, quiet and quick stop at the 'stop here on red' line.
Thus even though both cars had adequate brakes to slide the tires, the RX7 is much more controllable due to the fact that I don't have to push my guts out on the pedal to get it to stop.
I must argue also that brakes that require too little pedal pressure to lock up will be dangerous for the opposite reason, just easing into the pedal can cause brake lockup and longer stopping distances.
Basically, because humans control force most accurately in the middle of their available force range, brakes adjusted for optimum control would have moderate force required (very similar to the stock RX7 brakes.)
This is all my opinion, take it or leave it as you will.
This is the example that allows me to relate to your point:
my dad's Dodge Stratus vs. my RX7...
Stratus:
I see a stop light turn yellow, I know that the brakes are very weak, grasp the steering wheel firmly with both hands and get both feet on the brake pedal. I then push as hard as I can on the brake pedal in a desperate attempt to stop for the stop light. Due to a strange phase of the moon (or something) I am actually able to get the tires to lock up. When I try to let up on the pedal, I have to move my legs 2 inches to relieve the deflection in the steering wheel and seat (that I am braced against) and actually release the pedal. Result: I have flatspotted a set of tires and slid halfway through an intersection.
RX7: I see the stop light turn yellow, I ease into the brake pedal until I hear a tire chirp, then I maintain a tiny little bit less pressure than slipped the tire. This is all done with one foot on the brake, one hand on the steering wheel and barely any seat deflection, so the brake force can be more easily regulated. Result: a safe, quiet and quick stop at the 'stop here on red' line.
Thus even though both cars had adequate brakes to slide the tires, the RX7 is much more controllable due to the fact that I don't have to push my guts out on the pedal to get it to stop.
I must argue also that brakes that require too little pedal pressure to lock up will be dangerous for the opposite reason, just easing into the pedal can cause brake lockup and longer stopping distances.
Basically, because humans control force most accurately in the middle of their available force range, brakes adjusted for optimum control would have moderate force required (very similar to the stock RX7 brakes.)
This is all my opinion, take it or leave it as you will.
11-17-07, 05:48 PM
#12
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We're getting into issues of modulation and pedal effort, which is beside the point because both of these are quite good on the FC. The fact is that the tires can only supply so much grip and if you're able to exceed that threshold and get them to lock then your brakes are powerful enough and no increase in braking power can make you stop any faster. Maybe some slight changes in balance can get that distance down a hair, but that's all. The only reasons to change performance wise would be if you're fading them. The FC has good power and good thermal capacity. Unless you're tracking the car with lots of power, weight and with sticky tires then the stock brakes can be made to handle it with good pads, good fluid and some ducting.
11-17-07, 06:26 PM
#13
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No offense intended as this is as common a misconception as jumping a car battery-to-battery. I just wish this kind of info would stop going around.
As brakes get "better", they increase their stopping power to the point of lockup without locking up. Increasing brake size and balancing it with grippier pad material increases usable stopping power assuming your tires can handle it.
An easy way to wrap the brain around the idea is to image replacing the brake pads with two steel pistons. You'd have almost no stopping ability at all for a wide range of pressure, then suddenly pass the threshold and they'd lock the wheels.
But as with every other part of the car's suspension and braking, you can't increase one thing and get a positive effect without beefing up everything else.
As brakes get "better", they increase their stopping power to the point of lockup without locking up. Increasing brake size and balancing it with grippier pad material increases usable stopping power assuming your tires can handle it.
An easy way to wrap the brain around the idea is to image replacing the brake pads with two steel pistons. You'd have almost no stopping ability at all for a wide range of pressure, then suddenly pass the threshold and they'd lock the wheels.
But as with every other part of the car's suspension and braking, you can't increase one thing and get a positive effect without beefing up everything else.
You need to go read the braking primer written in GRM mag...
http://www.scirocco.org/faq/brakes/p...n/pfpage1.html
Please pay particular attention to the section labelled: "The Brake Pads"
All you have proved is that your braking technique sucks.
What you're describing is what most people *think* about how (big) brakes work.
You're the one actually perpetuating the myth.
Your example of of having brakes with no brake pads is a poor example.
-Ted
11-17-07, 06:40 PM
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Back to the topic... lol
Say you do actually need extra braking power, exactly how much better are the Z32 brakes? And can anyone answer the question of what you need to swap them over to the FC?
And the Stratus vs FC comparison is horrible, you're taking a car at least 10 years newer w/ 4-wheel ABS, if you're locking that up, your emergency braking sucks or the ABS system is hosed.
Say you do actually need extra braking power, exactly how much better are the Z32 brakes? And can anyone answer the question of what you need to swap them over to the FC?
And the Stratus vs FC comparison is horrible, you're taking a car at least 10 years newer w/ 4-wheel ABS, if you're locking that up, your emergency braking sucks or the ABS system is hosed.
11-17-07, 07:36 PM
#15
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Well for the rear Corksport has a cheap kit that adapts FD (RZ?) rear rotors to the FC to balance out whatever upgrade is made in front.
A quick search reveals that the 300ZX appears to have 11" rotors, that's the same as ours. The turbo Supras Mk. IV had 12.7"(?) rotors, and the FD's have 11.6"(?) rotors IIRC. Either one would therefore be a better swap candidate. Maybe an Evo, an STI, a 350Z/G35 with the track package brakes or something else along those lines would be good too. There are kits to adapt FD brakes to the FC in front, but I've only seen them on Japanese tuner's sites, so it'll be expensive to get a kit over here.
http://translate.google.com/translat...6rlz%3D1I7RNWE
A quick search reveals that the 300ZX appears to have 11" rotors, that's the same as ours. The turbo Supras Mk. IV had 12.7"(?) rotors, and the FD's have 11.6"(?) rotors IIRC. Either one would therefore be a better swap candidate. Maybe an Evo, an STI, a 350Z/G35 with the track package brakes or something else along those lines would be good too. There are kits to adapt FD brakes to the FC in front, but I've only seen them on Japanese tuner's sites, so it'll be expensive to get a kit over here.
http://translate.google.com/translat...6rlz%3D1I7RNWE
11-19-07, 12:13 AM
#17
Rider of the Sky
I guess I'm not communicating very well, because your example is pretty much the point I was trying to make O.o I just tried to shorten it down because I have a bad habit of writing novels instead of posts.
11-19-07, 12:41 AM
#18
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The physics of braking dictates that even if you used a steel pad that you'd still have decent modulation (the braking force is proportional to the pad coefficient of friction and the pressure applied). It'd require more effort to stop as it'd have a lower mu (~0.2) than regular pads (~0.75), but you won't get the situation you describe with very little stopping power then suddenly lockup, unless it physically binds, which won't happen with real brakes.
You cannot stop faster than the tires will let you, no matter what you have for brakes. That is a FACT! Stop spewing this crap about big brakes make you stop faster. In fact most of the time they make your stops longer, because of less than ideal brake balance, making the rears underworked. It's been shown time and time again that big brakes don't make yous stop any faster. Sometimes a tiny gain can be had from fooling with the bias, but this will be a couple feet, if that.
You cannot stop faster than the tires will let you, no matter what you have for brakes. That is a FACT! Stop spewing this crap about big brakes make you stop faster. In fact most of the time they make your stops longer, because of less than ideal brake balance, making the rears underworked. It's been shown time and time again that big brakes don't make yous stop any faster. Sometimes a tiny gain can be had from fooling with the bias, but this will be a couple feet, if that.
11-19-07, 01:08 AM
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The physics of braking dictates that even if you used a steel pad that you'd still have decent modulation (the braking force is proportional to the pad coefficient of friction and the pressure applied). It'd require more effort to stop as it'd have a lower mu (~0.2) than regular pads (~0.75), but you won't get the situation you describe with very little stopping power then suddenly lockup, unless it physically binds, which won't happen with real brakes.
You cannot stop faster than the tires will let you, no matter what you have for brakes. That is a FACT! Stop spewing this crap about big brakes make you stop faster. In fact most of the time they make your stops longer, because of less than ideal brake balance, making the rears underworked. It's been shown time and time again that big brakes don't make yous stop any faster. Sometimes a tiny gain can be had from fooling with the bias, but this will be a couple feet, if that.
You cannot stop faster than the tires will let you, no matter what you have for brakes. That is a FACT! Stop spewing this crap about big brakes make you stop faster. In fact most of the time they make your stops longer, because of less than ideal brake balance, making the rears underworked. It's been shown time and time again that big brakes don't make yous stop any faster. Sometimes a tiny gain can be had from fooling with the bias, but this will be a couple feet, if that.
I think the only good thing about big brake kits, is the larger two piece rotor that helps disapate heat. FC 4-Pots are Ok, not great, not horrible, just okay. better than stock singles, but a few guys on here making good power are having problems with brake on the stock brakes no matter what pad they use. Rock Loobster was the last one I came across, but I don't know if he's upgraded yet.
11-19-07, 01:59 AM
#21
All i have to say is the brakes that come on FC's are bigger than the standard equipment on some TRUCKS! Also +1 on having good tires, when i went from no name 205 55 16s to toyo proxes T1-s 225 45 17s it was like night and day road holding and braking became amazing instantly, i can't wait to install my Hawk HPS pads, coated stainless lines and fresh cut rotors on my TII, its going to be ******* amazing!
11-19-07, 02:11 AM
#22
Rider of the Sky
I keep getting warned that a lot of people on this forum will read something however they wish to interpret it and then violently argue it for attention. Your counterpoints, if you can call them that, are not to something I wrote, and I'm not going to repeat myself so you can understand.
11-19-07, 02:22 AM
#23
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I keep getting warned that a lot of people on this forum will read something however they wish to interpret it and then violently argue it for attention. Your counterpoints, if you can call them that, are not to something I wrote, and I'm not going to repeat myself so you can understand.
I tell you what...why don't you test your own theory yourself with a documented experiment, and report back to us with your findings?
What you're arguing is dropping the coefficient of friction next to nil and then having the metal parts fuse together to cause lockup.
The problem with your malaligned theory is that this is not a definition of what a "braking system" is.
You're changing the parameters of the argument to validate your point.
Yes, you are not communicating effectively.
-Ted
11-19-07, 04:35 AM
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This is all just silly. The only way to increase braking "power" and not lock the wheels earlier is to improve the grip between the tires and the road. That's just common sense. Your "assuming your tires can handle it" disclaimer basically contradicts your claim, because if they could handle the original stopping power they wouldn't be able to lock up.
11-19-07, 05:39 AM
#25
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Umm guys.. I think this has gona a little Off topic..
all I meant was:
In japan.. I see many FC's with Z32 brake upgrades.. and many company's selling kits that make it a direct swap..
so my question was.. are Z32 brakes superior to FC brakes? and if their not superior then why is it a common mod?
and as for braking general in theory... if "bigger brakes only decrease brake fade, not increase braking power"
I thought the point of going with bigger brakes was to have bigger rotors (i.e. more torque) and more pad surface creates alot more friction and braking force?
reason i brought this topic up... i've been taking my car to autoX events lately..
my car has deleted ABS, and a decent amount of meat on the brake pads...
pedal feel is alright..
on my oridiginal 15" rims and 205 tires.. I used to lock up the brakes without much difficulty...
i've now got 235/17's all around.. with Advan A046's...
now my brakes are failing me... they don't overheat... I never get out of first gear in the course anyway.. have to ride the limiter on occasion..
but i feel the brakes just don't have enough "bite" (i even leave it in gear with feeble hopes of some "engine braking" effect not that there is any)
what I mean by bite..
is the initial bite is good.. and braking is good if u just wanna slow down... it's when u need to come to almost or a complete stop.. i feel like the "weight" of the car over powers them.. and the last part of the braking is poor
as mentioned perhaps an overhaul of the whole braking system, slotted Rotors, aftermarket "race" like pads, and Motul fluid would be enough to put the "bite" back in to the system..
I would like to track the car on the F1 circuit.. but I don't have confidence in the brakes
all I meant was:
In japan.. I see many FC's with Z32 brake upgrades.. and many company's selling kits that make it a direct swap..
so my question was.. are Z32 brakes superior to FC brakes? and if their not superior then why is it a common mod?
and as for braking general in theory... if "bigger brakes only decrease brake fade, not increase braking power"
I thought the point of going with bigger brakes was to have bigger rotors (i.e. more torque) and more pad surface creates alot more friction and braking force?
reason i brought this topic up... i've been taking my car to autoX events lately..
my car has deleted ABS, and a decent amount of meat on the brake pads...
pedal feel is alright..
on my oridiginal 15" rims and 205 tires.. I used to lock up the brakes without much difficulty...
i've now got 235/17's all around.. with Advan A046's...
now my brakes are failing me... they don't overheat... I never get out of first gear in the course anyway.. have to ride the limiter on occasion..
but i feel the brakes just don't have enough "bite" (i even leave it in gear with feeble hopes of some "engine braking" effect not that there is any)
what I mean by bite..
is the initial bite is good.. and braking is good if u just wanna slow down... it's when u need to come to almost or a complete stop.. i feel like the "weight" of the car over powers them.. and the last part of the braking is poor
as mentioned perhaps an overhaul of the whole braking system, slotted Rotors, aftermarket "race" like pads, and Motul fluid would be enough to put the "bite" back in to the system..
I would like to track the car on the F1 circuit.. but I don't have confidence in the brakes
Last edited by Ottoman; 11-19-07 at 05:45 AM.