Wont run without starter signal.
07-30-10, 12:40 PM
#1
Wont run without starter signal.
Figured i would throw this one out there for any guru's who might be able to help.
We are trying to start a completly rewired FC. We have removed all non essential wiring for the car to run. We have also removed all the fuses. They have been replaced with properly sized breakers for the retained circuits. We have literally removed 85% of the wiring from the car. The only harness that is still stock is the EM harness and half the wiring has been removed from that one. The ignition system is retained including all wires from the ECU to the coils and the power to and tach signal from the coils.
All emissions removed including wiring and pins on the ECU. This includes all solenoids, the fuel pump resistor relay mess (fuel pump is 12v all the time now, on a separate switch), etc. OMP is removed (which is fine because the ECU is modified for it). Things like the starter cut relay, and circuit opening relay are all removed and associated circuits are straight wired through. VDI is "wired" open and the solenoid is removed. 5th and 6th ports are open, sleeves removed. No vac leaks found.
The car will fire and run when the starter is energized but will not continue to feed fuel and/or spark after the starter button is released.
This is an Rtek stage 2 ECU. We have spark on all coils and plugs. Got a tach signal from the trailing plugs so the ECU is not in limp mode. The ECU has power because it is firing the injectors and coils when the starter is energized ("start" fuel map).
It is not an idle speed problem as even when i modulate the throttle with my foot to try to keep the car running after start it wont run.
At this point i can only conjecture that the AFM is bad. Thus after it switches from the "start" fuel map over to running on the AFM signal it stops feeding fuel and/or spark.
We are trying to start a completly rewired FC. We have removed all non essential wiring for the car to run. We have also removed all the fuses. They have been replaced with properly sized breakers for the retained circuits. We have literally removed 85% of the wiring from the car. The only harness that is still stock is the EM harness and half the wiring has been removed from that one. The ignition system is retained including all wires from the ECU to the coils and the power to and tach signal from the coils.
All emissions removed including wiring and pins on the ECU. This includes all solenoids, the fuel pump resistor relay mess (fuel pump is 12v all the time now, on a separate switch), etc. OMP is removed (which is fine because the ECU is modified for it). Things like the starter cut relay, and circuit opening relay are all removed and associated circuits are straight wired through. VDI is "wired" open and the solenoid is removed. 5th and 6th ports are open, sleeves removed. No vac leaks found.
The car will fire and run when the starter is energized but will not continue to feed fuel and/or spark after the starter button is released.
This is an Rtek stage 2 ECU. We have spark on all coils and plugs. Got a tach signal from the trailing plugs so the ECU is not in limp mode. The ECU has power because it is firing the injectors and coils when the starter is energized ("start" fuel map).
It is not an idle speed problem as even when i modulate the throttle with my foot to try to keep the car running after start it wont run.
At this point i can only conjecture that the AFM is bad. Thus after it switches from the "start" fuel map over to running on the AFM signal it stops feeding fuel and/or spark.
07-30-10, 12:52 PM
#2
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No, what is happening is you go to START. That START signal puts power on ONE of the TWO coils in the Circuit Opening Relay which in turn feeds the fuel pump. Car starts.
You let the key go from START to just ON and now the Circuit Opening Relay coil gets de energized and the fuel pump runs no 'mo atall.
Then again......that can't be happening if you have the fuel pump running all the time off some other switch. That's what I read. You say the fuel pump runs off another switch and is not AFM fuel switch dependent. Right or wrong?
ON a stock car if you let the key return to ON from START, then the fuel pump switch inside the afm will put a ground on the OTHER coil in the Circuit Opening Relay to keep the fuel pump running. But you seem to be saying your fuel pump is not dependent on the circuit opening relay or afm fuel switch signal and is run completley off another switch you installed. Right or wRONG?
I mean........if you turn this new switch to ON, the pump runs whether or not the engine is running. Right?
On a stk car if the water thermosensor is unplugged or the ECU is not seeing its output, a cold engine may die 'cause it ain't a gittin enough fuel til the water temp get up to normal running temp.......then it'll run ok until you start the engine cold again later.
You let the key go from START to just ON and now the Circuit Opening Relay coil gets de energized and the fuel pump runs no 'mo atall.
Then again......that can't be happening if you have the fuel pump running all the time off some other switch. That's what I read. You say the fuel pump runs off another switch and is not AFM fuel switch dependent. Right or wrong?
ON a stock car if you let the key return to ON from START, then the fuel pump switch inside the afm will put a ground on the OTHER coil in the Circuit Opening Relay to keep the fuel pump running. But you seem to be saying your fuel pump is not dependent on the circuit opening relay or afm fuel switch signal and is run completley off another switch you installed. Right or wRONG?
I mean........if you turn this new switch to ON, the pump runs whether or not the engine is running. Right?
On a stk car if the water thermosensor is unplugged or the ECU is not seeing its output, a cold engine may die 'cause it ain't a gittin enough fuel til the water temp get up to normal running temp.......then it'll run ok until you start the engine cold again later.
07-30-10, 12:58 PM
#3
Yes the fuel pump is wired to run, 12v, all the time when this new, non-stock, on/off switch is "on". We wanted vastly simplify the fuel pump circuit. We also verified that the pump does run.
I edited my original post about 3 times. So to clarify the circuit opening relay has been removed. The ECU see's the 12v "COR is energized" input signal all the time now (if i recall correctly that's how we wired it).
Is it possible that it is just WAY to rich due to the 12v to the pump all the time so it wont run without leaning out the low load low RPM fuel maps?
Water thermosensor circuit is stock.
I edited my original post about 3 times. So to clarify the circuit opening relay has been removed. The ECU see's the 12v "COR is energized" input signal all the time now (if i recall correctly that's how we wired it).
Is it possible that it is just WAY to rich due to the 12v to the pump all the time so it wont run without leaning out the low load low RPM fuel maps?
Water thermosensor circuit is stock.
07-30-10, 01:09 PM
#5
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Well when the ECU sees the START signal it uses the internal START fuel map..................until the engine actually start and gets over 500 rpm whereupon the start fuel map isn't used anymore and now the afm is used.
I don't think the fuel pump running all the time is a problem other than a safety issue with some (car crashes......your knocked out.......fuel pump keeps running and feeding the fire that is enveloping you).
Do you know for sure the ECU is actually seeing the start signal when the key is HELD to start?????? Pin 3B I think on a series four. Just curious. You actually might see but 9vdc or so since the starter is sucking the life out of the batt as you try to start.
Anyway, over 500 rpm and the start internal fuel map ceases to be a player from the way I read things.
As for your afm................I'd just backprobe pin 2E on the ECU and with key ON, engine off, read the voltage and then slowly push the vane in the afm aft. The reading will decline in value as you do that. I THINK, if memory serves, the voltage will go down as you move the vane aft til you see just a volt or less. IF it does that the AFM is good in my opinion.
If I have some other thoughts I'll let you know.
About the circuit opening relay............the signal from the AFM is a gnd signal that happens if the vane is move aft at least a 1/8" approx. That fuel switch in the AFM does exactly what the yellow two socket fuel pump check connector does.........put a gnd on ONE of the coils inside the circuit opening relay.
If the new switch that feeds the pump is wired directly......................then the circuit opening relay does not much of anything in life at all that I can see.. The ECU sees the START signal off the same circuit that feeds the trigger wire on the starter solenoid. The COR does not pass this signal on to the ECU for starting purposes......the last time I looked.
I don't think the fuel pump running all the time is a problem other than a safety issue with some (car crashes......your knocked out.......fuel pump keeps running and feeding the fire that is enveloping you).
Do you know for sure the ECU is actually seeing the start signal when the key is HELD to start?????? Pin 3B I think on a series four. Just curious. You actually might see but 9vdc or so since the starter is sucking the life out of the batt as you try to start.
Anyway, over 500 rpm and the start internal fuel map ceases to be a player from the way I read things.
As for your afm................I'd just backprobe pin 2E on the ECU and with key ON, engine off, read the voltage and then slowly push the vane in the afm aft. The reading will decline in value as you do that. I THINK, if memory serves, the voltage will go down as you move the vane aft til you see just a volt or less. IF it does that the AFM is good in my opinion.
If I have some other thoughts I'll let you know.
About the circuit opening relay............the signal from the AFM is a gnd signal that happens if the vane is move aft at least a 1/8" approx. That fuel switch in the AFM does exactly what the yellow two socket fuel pump check connector does.........put a gnd on ONE of the coils inside the circuit opening relay.
If the new switch that feeds the pump is wired directly......................then the circuit opening relay does not much of anything in life at all that I can see.. The ECU sees the START signal off the same circuit that feeds the trigger wire on the starter solenoid. The COR does not pass this signal on to the ECU for starting purposes......the last time I looked.
07-30-10, 01:18 PM
#6
To clarify it is a non-turbo series 5 car. The fuel pump is wired such that if either the ignition switch is killed (typical safety toggle switch) or the main electrical cut switch is killed the fuel pump will stop running. This is a race car and is only used in situations where a safety crew can arrive and turn the kill switch should the driver be unconscious. Or if a fire starts with the driver conscious the driver kills the ignition with one hand swipe and the fuel pump shuts off too.
07-30-10, 01:20 PM
#7
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I would not have the ECU see batt voltage all the time. Only when the key is HELD to START.
I've never actually wired 3B with constant batt voltage all the time when key is ON, so I can't say that is not causing the problem..........although from what I read, if the engine goes over 500 rpm that start map isn't used anymore, so it's a moot point in a way. I still would not have 3B seeing batt voltage all the time. Not normal.
I've never actually wired 3B with constant batt voltage all the time when key is ON, so I can't say that is not causing the problem..........although from what I read, if the engine goes over 500 rpm that start map isn't used anymore, so it's a moot point in a way. I still would not have 3B seeing batt voltage all the time. Not normal.
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07-30-10, 01:23 PM
#8
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Oh. Series five worry me 'cause I don't have one and their afm signal is a bit different. It has no switch inside it like the series four to keep the pump a runing. I THINK it uses the signal from the afm cone moving aft to let the ECU tell the COR to pull in and stay pulled in. But you have the pump on a seperate switch so that would matter not.
I'd find the afm input to the ECU (pin 2B a green wire on series five) and moitor that voltage as you move the cone in the afm aft. Voltage should vary. How much? got me. I don't have a series five.. I'd think it's similar to what I described earlier.
I'd find the afm input to the ECU (pin 2B a green wire on series five) and moitor that voltage as you move the cone in the afm aft. Voltage should vary. How much? got me. I don't have a series five.. I'd think it's similar to what I described earlier.
07-30-10, 01:23 PM
#9
I dont have the pins memorized and dont have the wiring diagram book in front of me but i can say we wired the ECU "Starter Energized" input signal for the ECU wired so it only sees 12v when the starter is energized.
But, there was another ECU input pin that seemed like a feedback from the circuit opening relay. I assumed it was something along the lines of telling the ECU that the fuel pump was running. I think we simply put 12v to it from the ignition circuit.
But, there was another ECU input pin that seemed like a feedback from the circuit opening relay. I assumed it was something along the lines of telling the ECU that the fuel pump was running. I think we simply put 12v to it from the ignition circuit.
07-30-10, 01:31 PM
#10
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No fault codes on the RTEK???
And ps..........the afm volage on 2B should start out high and work its way down. Like start out at 4 volts and as the cone is pushed aft go to one or maybe less. If it move down in a more or less linerar fashion I'd rule out the afm being the problem.
Fuel line routed right? The FPR the last thing in the system before the fuel goes back into the tank?
Can you hear fuel returning to the tank when the pump is runnig all the time with the engine OFF (no noise so you can hear the fuel return).
And ps..........the afm volage on 2B should start out high and work its way down. Like start out at 4 volts and as the cone is pushed aft go to one or maybe less. If it move down in a more or less linerar fashion I'd rule out the afm being the problem.
Fuel line routed right? The FPR the last thing in the system before the fuel goes back into the tank?
Can you hear fuel returning to the tank when the pump is runnig all the time with the engine OFF (no noise so you can hear the fuel return).
07-30-10, 01:36 PM
#11
There are a bunch of codes from the ECU. But all were expected and none put it into limp mode. They were all from the the ECU wondering where all the emissions and actuator solenoids are etc. Unfortunatly we cannot connect to the ECU with the palm yet (another issue) but i was told by digital tunning that it should still have all the stock maps loaded and thus it should start and run at least initially.
I'll check the fuel lines. We actually still have the vac rack on the car but i cut all the vac tubes out of it, it is basically still there only to have an easy way to remove the fuel hoses from the engine and to support the middle intake manifold. Thus the fuel line routing is bone stock.
I'll check the fuel lines. We actually still have the vac rack on the car but i cut all the vac tubes out of it, it is basically still there only to have an easy way to remove the fuel hoses from the engine and to support the middle intake manifold. Thus the fuel line routing is bone stock.
07-30-10, 01:51 PM
#12
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See jpg attached.
I'd have only one wire in those jpg working. That would be the START signal to the ECU and nothing else. And that only having pwer when the key is HELD to STart.
The BR that goes to/from the ECU should never have power on it. Probably has a diode to protect the ECU if it does see pwr.
The GR wire should never see power on it. If you have pwer on it ........remove it.
What pins the GR and BR go to on the ECU I'll let you work out. Its just that they are gnd wire outputs from the ECU for two different purposes........and you've elimainatd the COR and the fuel pump resistor relay thing so you don't need those two wires on the ECU plug/s
I'd have only one wire in those jpg working. That would be the START signal to the ECU and nothing else. And that only having pwer when the key is HELD to STart.
The BR that goes to/from the ECU should never have power on it. Probably has a diode to protect the ECU if it does see pwr.
The GR wire should never see power on it. If you have pwer on it ........remove it.
What pins the GR and BR go to on the ECU I'll let you work out. Its just that they are gnd wire outputs from the ECU for two different purposes........and you've elimainatd the COR and the fuel pump resistor relay thing so you don't need those two wires on the ECU plug/s
07-30-10, 01:57 PM
#13
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When I got my RTEK(s) the car would start up just fine without anything else being done. As in Palm not connected etc. Must be another thing.
Lack of fuel but??? why? Got fuel for a start but car dies. Had enough fuel to start. If fuel lines crossed up..... most of the time the engine won't even do that initial start (from what I've read on this forum/fuel problems).
Lack of fuel but??? why? Got fuel for a start but car dies. Had enough fuel to start. If fuel lines crossed up..... most of the time the engine won't even do that initial start (from what I've read on this forum/fuel problems).
07-30-10, 02:02 PM
#14
Hmm ill check that B/R wire out. I remember looking at this diagram and if i recall now i doubt i would have put power to something that is so obviously a ground switch function (hence the grounding check connector).
We would have pulled that G/R pin out of the ECU (Front harness) plug because it did not go to anything anymore.
I put power to things like the M/T pin, and pins for fooling the ECU into thinking the car is always in gear and never in reverse etc.
We would have pulled that G/R pin out of the ECU (Front harness) plug because it did not go to anything anymore.
I put power to things like the M/T pin, and pins for fooling the ECU into thinking the car is always in gear and never in reverse etc.
07-30-10, 02:23 PM
#15
I should probably double check that it is indeed cutting spark and/or fuel when switching away from the "start" fuel map. It is acting very much like that is the case. But it may also be something like low compression due to to much fuel flooding it out. Or just too rich overall.
08-01-10, 11:20 PM
#16
We basically tested everything today. The car will definitely run on the start fuel/ignition map. But will not convert over to the other maps. AFM, MAP sensor, TPS, etc, all check out. Since we also can't connect to the Rtek i am thinking the ECU (meaning the Rtek chips) are bad.
I will be contacting him monday (hopefully) as long as he is not out of town and having him go through the ECU.
I will be contacting him monday (hopefully) as long as he is not out of town and having him go through the ECU.
08-08-10, 10:27 PM
#18
CAS was stabbed one tooth to the late ignition side. After proper restab, TPS and idle speed adjustment the car idles good now, starts and runs without issue.
One other issue poped up. We wired up the alternator initially with an LED in place of the stock light and diode. (the L terminal). We have 12v power from the ignition circuit to the S terminal and the positive terminal is wired to the main charge/start circuit (with a 120amp breaker).
The alternator will supply 12.4 volts solidly at idle. But when the engine is reved up over 3k rpm it goes to between 15 and 15.5.
Number one, is this a problem. Number two, how bad of a problem?
I have always had alternators stay solidly at 12.3-12.5 volts regardless of engine RPM. I am of course worried about the computer.
One other issue poped up. We wired up the alternator initially with an LED in place of the stock light and diode. (the L terminal). We have 12v power from the ignition circuit to the S terminal and the positive terminal is wired to the main charge/start circuit (with a 120amp breaker).
The alternator will supply 12.4 volts solidly at idle. But when the engine is reved up over 3k rpm it goes to between 15 and 15.5.
Number one, is this a problem. Number two, how bad of a problem?
I have always had alternators stay solidly at 12.3-12.5 volts regardless of engine RPM. I am of course worried about the computer.
08-08-10, 10:56 PM
#19
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12-14.5 is excepteble. if you start overcharging you are going to 1 boil your battery , and 2 fry all voltage sensitve electronics. what it sounds like is your alternator is about to go , atleast this is from my experience with mobile electronics(predominatly high end sterios car starters etc.) At idle you say 12 and when you rev it climbs , is it bouncing or steadily rising? if bouncy get rid of alternator and if you breach 16 vdc shutdown damage is imminent
08-08-10, 10:59 PM
#20
sorry i meant to say 14.4 volts at idle then it climbs with RPMs up to above 15 at 2500-3000 RPM. I did not rev it any higher than that to avoid damage to components (ECU etc).
It is a steady rise. It never exceeded 16v but i still dont like what i am seeing.
It is a steady rise. It never exceeded 16v but i still dont like what i am seeing.
08-08-10, 11:06 PM
#21
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the cut for alternator is in the voltage regulator i believe hailers will be able to tell you for sure at some point tomorrow . however this cut should be at 2k (as with the majority of other vehicles) and 14.4 is beautiful idle voltage, by my standards. If not properly wired it might not cut voltage. its very easy to have an alt tested but this is probably not your problem unless it has a built in regulator(not sure with the 7's) yet i would still have it tested , i think autzone does it for free
