Wiring help pleae, 5 bare wires, no power to starter!
09-03-11, 11:35 PM
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Wiring help pleae, 5 bare wires, no power to starter!
I have been tidying up my rx7 in the garage slowly over the last year. Its pretty much good to go except it won't start.
Now I had an earlier thread about me having strange issues with it trying to turn over on ACC and no electrics working etc. I had a mate come over and fix all of that for me, which was awesome. After that it was getting late, we just needed to sort out the power to the starters trigger wire and it should have started. Because it was late, he suggested coming back the next day and finishing, something he said would only take an hour or so.... I haven't seen from him since and that was 2-3 months ago >_<.
The car is a '87 turbo that was originally auto and has been converted to manual (I have driven it around in manual. I have 5 wires that have been pulled out of the loom but I can't see anything that they could have been wired into or any plugs that they came from.
I have the Haynes manual and can't seem to ID the wires and as you probably can tell I'm extreme newb at wiring. The only diagrams are for automatic non=turbo and manual turbo with the turbo model having a few billion less wires.
Here are some pics, hopefully someone can get me on the right track or at least suggest what they are for/where they came from so I can figure out what I need to do.
Also as a note, everything else seems to work perfect, just not starting. So its probably some inhibitor thing >_<.
Thanks in advance.
Now I had an earlier thread about me having strange issues with it trying to turn over on ACC and no electrics working etc. I had a mate come over and fix all of that for me, which was awesome. After that it was getting late, we just needed to sort out the power to the starters trigger wire and it should have started. Because it was late, he suggested coming back the next day and finishing, something he said would only take an hour or so.... I haven't seen from him since and that was 2-3 months ago >_<.
The car is a '87 turbo that was originally auto and has been converted to manual (I have driven it around in manual. I have 5 wires that have been pulled out of the loom but I can't see anything that they could have been wired into or any plugs that they came from.
I have the Haynes manual and can't seem to ID the wires and as you probably can tell I'm extreme newb at wiring. The only diagrams are for automatic non=turbo and manual turbo with the turbo model having a few billion less wires.
Here are some pics, hopefully someone can get me on the right track or at least suggest what they are for/where they came from so I can figure out what I need to do.
Also as a note, everything else seems to work perfect, just not starting. So its probably some inhibitor thing >_<.
Thanks in advance.
09-04-11, 11:49 PM
#2
Rotary Freak
Never again write about a wire having blue dots or any other kind of dot on them. The dots are meaningless.
A wire is either a pure color like BROWN or a wire will be of a pure color like Brown with a yellow stripe.
Dots mean nothing.
Black/Yellow are mostly switched power wires. Switched meaning the key has to be ON for them to have power.
The wiring diagrams are available on THIS site in the FAQ thread. There are series four and series five wiring diagrams there. The series four diagrams are MOSTLY correct for a 88 car but NOT entirely correct for a 86-87 car. I did say MOSTLY correc though. So don't sneeze at 'em.
The automatic car had a plug connected to the automatic transmission and that was the INHIBITOR switch (go download the wiring schematics and look).
The manual cars had no inhibitor switch but had a clutch interlock switch. NOT all early cars have that clutch interlock switch. I own two of those cars without that losers feature.
So a stk auto car would have had a black/green wire at the ignition switch connectors instead of a black/red wire there and this wire would be the wire that feeds the starter solenoid via other connections inbetween those two points.
On a auto car that black/green wire would have gone from the ignition switch to the starter cut relay in the engine compartment. It would leave the starter cut relay and then go to the INHIBITOR switch on the auto tranamission. Now that elect plug should still exist on your car IF the wiring has not been changed/altered from stk. So you find that elect plug first thing off. It will have four wires in it and those colors will be the ones shown in the picture on page 50-19 of the online wiring manual for the plug designated E-14.
After E-14 things get confusing especially for me who has no automatic cars. On automatic cars the .................well it's confusing because of several things. Like one would want to know if this car had ABS or not. Makes a difference. Or if this car had factory theft or not. Makes a difference.
To make life simple one would could just buy some 18-22ga wire and run that wire from the black/green at the ignition switch plug directly to the starter solenoid and be done with it.
IF you have no single elect plug at the ignition switch with a single black/green wire..........then I'd at least expect to find a single wire plug there with a Black/Red wire and this would then be the starters trigger wire in lieu of the black/green.
Ah but fudge, the would break HAILERS2's rule of making sure the trigger wire also feeds the ECU pin 3B and the circuit opening relay when you go to START with the key. It's a black/red wire that does that from the conenctor called FE-05 on page 50-18 of the wiring manual online.
ECU needs to know your starting the car so it will bring online the Start fuel map and the circuit opening relay needs power so it can pull in and turn on the fuel pump when the key is put to Start....and also to turn OFF the heaters blower motor when the key is in Start.
IF from what you wrote on the jpg that the black/red wire is the starter trigger wire, I assume you found out that when the key is put to Start it has power???????????? You could then just run that wire to the starter solenoid and be done with it.
The black/red wire does a lot in life. It gives power to the circuit opening relay and the ECU and blower motor housing when the key is put to Start.........see page 50-36 of the wiring manual. I left out the subzero motor..oops. Who cares.
BLACK wire are almost ALWAYS gnd wires. I know of no other case of a black being other than a gnd wire. If someone knows of other......say so.
Black/Yellow......switched power.
Brown/yellow......errr ah there's a brown/yellow that goes to the air bypass relay. Runs b/t the air bypass relay up front of the car to the air bypass solenod on the left side of a non turbo car. Left rear side of the engine that is. Non essential to flight. See page 50-31 of the wiring diagrams.
Pure brown???? no telling.
Are these five wires a part of the EM harness or part of the Engine harness. See pages 50-114 and on for what the Engine harness consists of and what the EM harness consists of before answering that question.
Black/yellow wires are used to power the lead and trail coils.............but also power other items like the fuel injectors. See page 50-28. Most black/yellow originate coming out of the Main Relay. It's just too hard to say looking at what I see or don't see in the jpgs you attached. Also a black/yellow goes to a condenser near the trail coil area and that same black/yellow is spliced to the black/yellow that feed the lead and trail cols. Who knows. I'm pretty much burnt out on RX. Time for another car or some sort. Maybe a soccer mom van?
Seeing as how it's late here and I'm venting a bit.............I hate interlock switches on clutch pedals and also despise any and all CHARMS and ringy dingy sounds when doors are ajar/open or seatbelts not connected or doors not locked etc. Those items are for losers who have no situational awareness and need to fall out the unlocked doors til they get some situational awareness. I mean gee whiz. All I want to do is leave the key in the igntion and open the door to rest my foot on it and not hear some ding, ding noise. I also don't care for DTRL in any way shape or form. I don't need a key fob button to open a door. The key in the lock is more than enough to do the job. I'm not lazy.
A wire is either a pure color like BROWN or a wire will be of a pure color like Brown with a yellow stripe.
Dots mean nothing.
Black/Yellow are mostly switched power wires. Switched meaning the key has to be ON for them to have power.
The wiring diagrams are available on THIS site in the FAQ thread. There are series four and series five wiring diagrams there. The series four diagrams are MOSTLY correct for a 88 car but NOT entirely correct for a 86-87 car. I did say MOSTLY correc though. So don't sneeze at 'em.
The automatic car had a plug connected to the automatic transmission and that was the INHIBITOR switch (go download the wiring schematics and look).
The manual cars had no inhibitor switch but had a clutch interlock switch. NOT all early cars have that clutch interlock switch. I own two of those cars without that losers feature.
So a stk auto car would have had a black/green wire at the ignition switch connectors instead of a black/red wire there and this wire would be the wire that feeds the starter solenoid via other connections inbetween those two points.
On a auto car that black/green wire would have gone from the ignition switch to the starter cut relay in the engine compartment. It would leave the starter cut relay and then go to the INHIBITOR switch on the auto tranamission. Now that elect plug should still exist on your car IF the wiring has not been changed/altered from stk. So you find that elect plug first thing off. It will have four wires in it and those colors will be the ones shown in the picture on page 50-19 of the online wiring manual for the plug designated E-14.
After E-14 things get confusing especially for me who has no automatic cars. On automatic cars the .................well it's confusing because of several things. Like one would want to know if this car had ABS or not. Makes a difference. Or if this car had factory theft or not. Makes a difference.
To make life simple one would could just buy some 18-22ga wire and run that wire from the black/green at the ignition switch plug directly to the starter solenoid and be done with it.
IF you have no single elect plug at the ignition switch with a single black/green wire..........then I'd at least expect to find a single wire plug there with a Black/Red wire and this would then be the starters trigger wire in lieu of the black/green.
Ah but fudge, the would break HAILERS2's rule of making sure the trigger wire also feeds the ECU pin 3B and the circuit opening relay when you go to START with the key. It's a black/red wire that does that from the conenctor called FE-05 on page 50-18 of the wiring manual online.
ECU needs to know your starting the car so it will bring online the Start fuel map and the circuit opening relay needs power so it can pull in and turn on the fuel pump when the key is put to Start....and also to turn OFF the heaters blower motor when the key is in Start.
IF from what you wrote on the jpg that the black/red wire is the starter trigger wire, I assume you found out that when the key is put to Start it has power???????????? You could then just run that wire to the starter solenoid and be done with it.
The black/red wire does a lot in life. It gives power to the circuit opening relay and the ECU and blower motor housing when the key is put to Start.........see page 50-36 of the wiring manual. I left out the subzero motor..oops. Who cares.
BLACK wire are almost ALWAYS gnd wires. I know of no other case of a black being other than a gnd wire. If someone knows of other......say so.
Black/Yellow......switched power.
Brown/yellow......errr ah there's a brown/yellow that goes to the air bypass relay. Runs b/t the air bypass relay up front of the car to the air bypass solenod on the left side of a non turbo car. Left rear side of the engine that is. Non essential to flight. See page 50-31 of the wiring diagrams.
Pure brown???? no telling.
Are these five wires a part of the EM harness or part of the Engine harness. See pages 50-114 and on for what the Engine harness consists of and what the EM harness consists of before answering that question.
Black/yellow wires are used to power the lead and trail coils.............but also power other items like the fuel injectors. See page 50-28. Most black/yellow originate coming out of the Main Relay. It's just too hard to say looking at what I see or don't see in the jpgs you attached. Also a black/yellow goes to a condenser near the trail coil area and that same black/yellow is spliced to the black/yellow that feed the lead and trail cols. Who knows. I'm pretty much burnt out on RX. Time for another car or some sort. Maybe a soccer mom van?
Seeing as how it's late here and I'm venting a bit.............I hate interlock switches on clutch pedals and also despise any and all CHARMS and ringy dingy sounds when doors are ajar/open or seatbelts not connected or doors not locked etc. Those items are for losers who have no situational awareness and need to fall out the unlocked doors til they get some situational awareness. I mean gee whiz. All I want to do is leave the key in the igntion and open the door to rest my foot on it and not hear some ding, ding noise. I also don't care for DTRL in any way shape or form. I don't need a key fob button to open a door. The key in the lock is more than enough to do the job. I'm not lazy.
09-05-11, 12:24 AM
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Wow that's an amazing post! It's freaking awesome that as I'm viewing this your post count is 1337.
Thanks a billion, I'll be at my car tomorrow and I'll give it a go.
Even just saying to ignore the dots has helped me a lot
.
Additional info: non-abs, not sure if it had theft deterent - don't think so. Emissions removed (since it's been off the road)
Oh also the trigger wire I labeled has no power so it is something between there and the ignition.
I have a reasonably idea of what to do, thank you so much HAILERS2! will post back here with results when I'm next free to check it out.
Thanks a billion, I'll be at my car tomorrow and I'll give it a go.
Even just saying to ignore the dots has helped me a lot
.Additional info: non-abs, not sure if it had theft deterent - don't think so. Emissions removed (since it's been off the road)
Oh also the trigger wire I labeled has no power so it is something between there and the ignition.
I have a reasonably idea of what to do, thank you so much HAILERS2! will post back here with results when I'm next free to check it out.
Last edited by BurritoBut; 09-05-11 at 12:40 AM.
09-05-11, 06:22 PM
#4
Rotary Freak
About 20,500 posts as HAILERS
About 1,3500 as HAILERS2
About 80% of them I can't even figure out what I was saying at that time....humor
Burnt out on RX.
See the jpg attached of a Blue jumper connector? IF the car did not have factory theft protection, then it won't have a starter cut RELAY and will have this blue jumper plug attached to the harness instead. This blue connector is usually found just under the trail coil assy. Remove three nuts that hold that coil assy down and lift it up and see if you have a blue connector attached to the harness.
IF not then the cars that had factory theft will have a relay attached to the fender just aft of the main relay. It would help you if you found that elect plug that either attaches to the blue jumper connector or find that plug if it's attached to the starter cut relay (factory theft cars only).
Once you find that elect plug you can see if the black/green wire in it has power when the key is put to Start....or not and work things out from there as far as starting goes.
I attached two jpg. One called STARTERONE and the other STARTERTWO. Startertwo is a copy from the series four wiring from the manual. The jpg called STARTERONE is the same item but I removed lines that are not applicable to manual cars. Your original auto should have been wired like STARTERONE jpg.
The blue connector replaces the starter cut relay in the jpgs IF the car had no factory theft protection.
About 1,3500 as HAILERS2
About 80% of them I can't even figure out what I was saying at that time....humor
Burnt out on RX.
See the jpg attached of a Blue jumper connector? IF the car did not have factory theft protection, then it won't have a starter cut RELAY and will have this blue jumper plug attached to the harness instead. This blue connector is usually found just under the trail coil assy. Remove three nuts that hold that coil assy down and lift it up and see if you have a blue connector attached to the harness.
IF not then the cars that had factory theft will have a relay attached to the fender just aft of the main relay. It would help you if you found that elect plug that either attaches to the blue jumper connector or find that plug if it's attached to the starter cut relay (factory theft cars only).
Once you find that elect plug you can see if the black/green wire in it has power when the key is put to Start....or not and work things out from there as far as starting goes.
I attached two jpg. One called STARTERONE and the other STARTERTWO. Startertwo is a copy from the series four wiring from the manual. The jpg called STARTERONE is the same item but I removed lines that are not applicable to manual cars. Your original auto should have been wired like STARTERONE jpg.
The blue connector replaces the starter cut relay in the jpgs IF the car had no factory theft protection.
09-05-11, 06:54 PM
#5
Rotary Freak
The automatic cars ignition switches pigtail harness should have the three elect plugs connected to it that are shown in the attached jpg. One of those plugs has but one wire and that wire on a auto should have been B/G as shown in the jpg attached.
Key to Start that B/G should have batt voltage one it. From there it should have originally gone directly to the starter cut relay OR in not installed, then to the blue jumper connector as a B/G wire. From there it would leave the blue jumper or relay and become a B/W wire going to the INHIBITOR switches plug.
The dwg confuses me here. We know it would pass pwr thru the inhibitor switch and back to the E-14 plug on the inhibitor switch and there's a conflict at least to me, as to what color wire leaves the E-14 and goes to the starter solenoid. I think it leaves as a B/R wire but I'm not sure. The dwg is confusing when I go to the next page in the manual and look at the wires going into the E-14. Ah heck it has to leave as a B/R and that B/R must feed the starter solenoid and also the plug called FE-05 also. The FE-05 will feed the circuit opening relay and blower motor etc.
Key to Start that B/G should have batt voltage one it. From there it should have originally gone directly to the starter cut relay OR in not installed, then to the blue jumper connector as a B/G wire. From there it would leave the blue jumper or relay and become a B/W wire going to the INHIBITOR switches plug.
The dwg confuses me here. We know it would pass pwr thru the inhibitor switch and back to the E-14 plug on the inhibitor switch and there's a conflict at least to me, as to what color wire leaves the E-14 and goes to the starter solenoid. I think it leaves as a B/R wire but I'm not sure. The dwg is confusing when I go to the next page in the manual and look at the wires going into the E-14. Ah heck it has to leave as a B/R and that B/R must feed the starter solenoid and also the plug called FE-05 also. The FE-05 will feed the circuit opening relay and blower motor etc.
09-05-11, 07:13 PM
#6
Rotary Freak
Inhibitor switch plug E-14 should look like the attached jpg.
The B/Y and R/G in that plug would be the wires that turn on the backup lights when the auto was put in Reverse.
The B/W and B/R are the start signal input and the start output IF the auto transmission was put in reverse....on a automatic car.
The B/Y and R/G in that plug would be the wires that turn on the backup lights when the auto was put in Reverse.
The B/W and B/R are the start signal input and the start output IF the auto transmission was put in reverse....on a automatic car.
09-05-11, 11:58 PM
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Ok, bear with me...
I found the B/G wire and have 12v there. But, on mine, it doesn't change to a B/W wire and continues as a B/G wire to what I presume is the inhibitor switch.
My plug goes...
B/G | B/Y
------------
R/B | R/L (Red/Blue sure you already know
)
I know this is totally different to the E-14 inhibitor switch that you showed me but I remember that plug had to be played around with to work the reverse lights etc as you described.
The Red/Blue wire in that plug is the trigger wire so is the 12v meant to run in to the inhibitor switch on the B/G wire then out on the Red/Blue wire and to the solenoid?
Is that what you mean in this next part?
So my problem is that once it goes through the plug above, I'm not getting 12v back out through the R/L wire to the solenoid. Can I just tap off the B/G wire to the solenoid? I guess it would work if I also had the 12v at the R/B from the connector FE-05?
Also, I tested the 5 bare wires that I had and the yellow black one is 12v at ign, I worries me that this could be for the coils and i have no idea where it came from.
Sorry I'm probably completely wrong and sound moronic but I'm trying >_<!
My plug goes...
B/G | B/Y
------------
R/B | R/L (Red/Blue sure you already know
)I know this is totally different to the E-14 inhibitor switch that you showed me but I remember that plug had to be played around with to work the reverse lights etc as you described.
The Red/Blue wire in that plug is the trigger wire so is the 12v meant to run in to the inhibitor switch on the B/G wire then out on the Red/Blue wire and to the solenoid?
Is that what you mean in this next part?
The dwg confuses me here. We know it would pass pwr thru the inhibitor switch and back to the E-14 plug on the inhibitor switch and there's a conflict at least to me, as to what color wire leaves the E-14 and goes to the starter solenoid. I think it leaves as a B/R wire but I'm not sure. The dwg is confusing when I go to the next page in the manual and look at the wires going into the E-14. Ah heck it has to leave as a B/R and that B/R must feed the starter solenoid and also the plug called FE-05 also. The FE-05 will feed the circuit opening relay and blower motor etc.
So my problem is that once it goes through the plug above, I'm not getting 12v back out through the R/L wire to the solenoid. Can I just tap off the B/G wire to the solenoid? I guess it would work if I also had the 12v at the R/B from the connector FE-05?
Also, I tested the 5 bare wires that I had and the yellow black one is 12v at ign, I worries me that this could be for the coils and i have no idea where it came from.
Sorry I'm probably completely wrong and sound moronic but I'm trying >_<!
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09-06-11, 11:30 AM
#9
Rotary Freak
http://www.cochran-racing.com/FSM/index.html
http://www.cochran-racing.com/FSM/s4...NG_DIAGRAM.pdf
http://www.mediafire.com/?ymmegzt2ngh
http://mazdarx7.iougs.com/fsm.shtml
I mentioned earlier that the 86-87 wiring for the start circuit might be a bit different than the online 88. So if I can find them, I'll try to find my 86-87 wiring pages.......although I think I have lost those pages except for the turbo start circuit.
IF you've found what you think if the inhibitor switch and one wire on that plug gets hot when the key is HELD to start........yes you could just splice off it with a new wire and run it to the starter solenoids small blade for the trigger.
http://www.cochran-racing.com/FSM/s4...NG_DIAGRAM.pdf
http://www.mediafire.com/?ymmegzt2ngh
http://mazdarx7.iougs.com/fsm.shtml
I mentioned earlier that the 86-87 wiring for the start circuit might be a bit different than the online 88. So if I can find them, I'll try to find my 86-87 wiring pages.......although I think I have lost those pages except for the turbo start circuit.
IF you've found what you think if the inhibitor switch and one wire on that plug gets hot when the key is HELD to start........yes you could just splice off it with a new wire and run it to the starter solenoids small blade for the trigger.
09-07-11, 05:14 AM
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Should I be particually worried about those 5 wires? Or not bother with them unless anything is not working..
Nervous about the B/Y one if it is to do with the ignition coils.. Will be studying the wiring diagrams me thinks.
Nervous about the B/Y one if it is to do with the ignition coils.. Will be studying the wiring diagrams me thinks.
09-07-11, 08:41 AM
#12
Rotary Freak
Can you for sure tell me out of which harness those wires are coming from?
The harness that attaches to the ECU and runs into the engine bay and has the fuel injector clips, water thermo sensor clip etc is the EM harness.
The harness that runs along the left side of the engine is the Engine harness plus the Front harness runs along there also. See the last few pages of the 88FSM for what is in each harness.
There is a condenser below the trail coil area that has a black/yellow wire connected to it and that same black/yellow wire is spliced to the black/yellow wires that go to the lead and trail coils (for power).
JPG attached shows the condenser. Arrow pointing to it. It is part of the Front hanrss and that is why I want to make sure if your black/yellow is part of the Front harnes or some other harness.
I figure it might be part of the Front harness because of the brown/yellow wire which is one of the five wires and brown/yellow is a wire that connects the air bypass relay with the air bypass solenoid. See attached jpg called brown/yellow.
Actually the dwg shows the brown/yellow as part of the Front harness and part of the EM harness. I figure since you have a black/yellow wire among the five wires that they might all be part of the front harness.
Is this harness on the engine (EM harness) from the original 87 car or off some other engine???????????? The early 86-87 would have no black/yellow wire in the EM harness but the newer cars like 88 would have a black/yellow feeding the fuel injectors clips. The early 86-87 power wire to the fuel injectors is not black/yellow but other colors not shown in the online FSM wiring.
That said the air bypass solenoid and or relay isn't needed for the running of the engine so you could just cap off the brown/yellow wire.
The harness that attaches to the ECU and runs into the engine bay and has the fuel injector clips, water thermo sensor clip etc is the EM harness.
The harness that runs along the left side of the engine is the Engine harness plus the Front harness runs along there also. See the last few pages of the 88FSM for what is in each harness.
There is a condenser below the trail coil area that has a black/yellow wire connected to it and that same black/yellow wire is spliced to the black/yellow wires that go to the lead and trail coils (for power).
JPG attached shows the condenser. Arrow pointing to it. It is part of the Front hanrss and that is why I want to make sure if your black/yellow is part of the Front harnes or some other harness.
I figure it might be part of the Front harness because of the brown/yellow wire which is one of the five wires and brown/yellow is a wire that connects the air bypass relay with the air bypass solenoid. See attached jpg called brown/yellow.
Actually the dwg shows the brown/yellow as part of the Front harness and part of the EM harness. I figure since you have a black/yellow wire among the five wires that they might all be part of the front harness.
Is this harness on the engine (EM harness) from the original 87 car or off some other engine???????????? The early 86-87 would have no black/yellow wire in the EM harness but the newer cars like 88 would have a black/yellow feeding the fuel injectors clips. The early 86-87 power wire to the fuel injectors is not black/yellow but other colors not shown in the online FSM wiring.
That said the air bypass solenoid and or relay isn't needed for the running of the engine so you could just cap off the brown/yellow wire.
09-07-11, 08:11 PM
#13
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Sweet, thanks!
Just about to go work on it now.
As far as I know it is the original loom, maybe I should check the vin plate to see if it is actually an '87. Its registered as an '87 but I have had another car that was completely different to the rego.
I was told that It had a newer engine swapped into it when I brought it but have seen absolutely no evidence for this, everything look like it had been there for 24 years when I pulled everything off. I was also told it had a Cosmo 13b LOL.
Ok, I'll go check what loom those 5 wires come off and I'll splice the power to the start! May actually get it running for the first time in a year!
Just about to go work on it now.
As far as I know it is the original loom, maybe I should check the vin plate to see if it is actually an '87. Its registered as an '87 but I have had another car that was completely different to the rego.
I was told that It had a newer engine swapped into it when I brought it but have seen absolutely no evidence for this, everything look like it had been there for 24 years when I pulled everything off. I was also told it had a Cosmo 13b LOL.
Ok, I'll go check what loom those 5 wires come off and I'll splice the power to the start
! May actually get it running for the first time in a year!
09-07-11, 10:31 PM
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**** just typed out a post and lost it >_<!
Ok, I the 5 wires are part of the Engine Harness as it has the oil pressure gauge and the oil level sensor. The inhibitor also runs from the same loom.
Also what does the condenser look like? Is it part of emissions? If it is that's probably why I can't see it.
Just going to go splice for power to starter.
PS: Rugby world cup opens tomorrow!
Ok, I the 5 wires are part of the Engine Harness as it has the oil pressure gauge and the oil level sensor. The inhibitor also runs from the same loom.
Also what does the condenser look like? Is it part of emissions? If it is that's probably why I can't see it.
Just going to go splice for power to starter.
PS: Rugby world cup opens tomorrow!
09-08-11, 12:14 AM
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Ah but fudge, the would break HAILERS2's rule of making sure the trigger wire also feeds the ECU pin 3B and the circuit opening relay when you go to START with the key. It's a black/red wire that does that from the conenctor called FE-05 on page 50-18 of the wiring manual online.
ECU needs to know your starting the car so it will bring online the Start fuel map and the circuit opening relay needs power so it can pull in and turn on the fuel pump when the key is put to Start....and also to turn OFF the heaters blower motor when the key is in Start.
ECU needs to know your starting the car so it will bring online the Start fuel map and the circuit opening relay needs power so it can pull in and turn on the fuel pump when the key is put to Start....and also to turn OFF the heaters blower motor when the key is in Start.
I have it turning over now (compression sounds good
) but its not firing up. I put the heater on while starting to see if it could be the above and the heater stays on but I can quite audibly hear the fuel pump.Going to check spark etc now and try find out whats up.
09-08-11, 02:49 AM
#16
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Checked spark and there is spark, and fuel is pumping good. Plugs seemed a little oily (which may be from the 2 stroke sitting in the tank) so we drained it out and are about to go get more fuel and try again.
09-08-11, 11:07 AM
#18
Rotary Freak
First make sure the fuel lines at the engine are not crossed.
Second..........buy a can of starter fluid and spray it for nor more than two seconds into the air filter/afm. Then try to start. IF there's spark it will fire up for a couple of seconds.
IF it does and won't run then suspect the fuel is not going thru the fuel rail and back to the tank continuously like it should.
A lack of the ECU seeing the Start signal will mean the afm is being used for fuel amount during Start and this will be toooo litttttle during the start sequence. Normally the ECU will see the Start signal from the black/red wire. It changes to another color at the ECU pin 3B. The 3B should see batt voltage when the key is HELD to START. Pull that small plug off the ECU and see if pin 3B has batt pwr when the key is HELD to START.....or not.
3B is on the small ECU plug. You look and count the pins on the small plug looking from the WIRE side of the connector. The wire is Black with a Blue stripe on it. Bottom row, far right on the small plug.
IF my cars did not see the start signal on 3B..........they would be difficult to start on a morning that is 54*F. It would eventually start after a lot of cranking. Not desireable for the ECU to not see 3B during Start.
A blast of starting fluid proves a lot of things and will get you on the right path. NEVer keep the engine running by constantly spraying stasrter fluid. Not a good thing to do.
Second..........buy a can of starter fluid and spray it for nor more than two seconds into the air filter/afm. Then try to start. IF there's spark it will fire up for a couple of seconds.
IF it does and won't run then suspect the fuel is not going thru the fuel rail and back to the tank continuously like it should.
A lack of the ECU seeing the Start signal will mean the afm is being used for fuel amount during Start and this will be toooo litttttle during the start sequence. Normally the ECU will see the Start signal from the black/red wire. It changes to another color at the ECU pin 3B. The 3B should see batt voltage when the key is HELD to START. Pull that small plug off the ECU and see if pin 3B has batt pwr when the key is HELD to START.....or not.
3B is on the small ECU plug. You look and count the pins on the small plug looking from the WIRE side of the connector. The wire is Black with a Blue stripe on it. Bottom row, far right on the small plug.
IF my cars did not see the start signal on 3B..........they would be difficult to start on a morning that is 54*F. It would eventually start after a lot of cranking. Not desireable for the ECU to not see 3B during Start.
A blast of starting fluid proves a lot of things and will get you on the right path. NEVer keep the engine running by constantly spraying stasrter fluid. Not a good thing to do.
09-11-11, 02:33 AM
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Wow thanks again mate, if you ever come to New Zealand I owe you a few beers!
I will check all this tomorrow. Just a quick question, if I don't have power at the 3B pin can I splice power from something that does get power at starting? Or should I trace it back and try figure it out?
Thanks
I will check all this tomorrow. Just a quick question, if I don't have power at the 3B pin can I splice power from something that does get power at starting? Or should I trace it back and try figure it out?
Thanks
09-11-11, 09:14 AM
#20
Rotary Freak
Well the power at 3B is just momentary power that's only seen when the key is HELD to START so the ECU will use the internal Start fuel Map instead of the afm for fuel amount (too little using the afm during cold starts).
As the wiring diagrams for the automatic car shows, the ECU gets this signal at ......3B on a black/blue wire. Prior to the black/blue the wire is black/red coming from the FEM-02 elect plug. See jpg attached.
That black/red wire is in the front harness and it gets to FEM-02 from the left side of the car where the starter etc are. So if you find a black/red over on the left side of the cars engine bay/starter area, most likely this is the same wire and if you splice whatever wire you have on the starter solenoid (small blade connector on the starter solenoid) then when you go to Start the ECU should see batt pwr at the starter and ECU pin 3B at the same moment.
That same wire that is attached to the starter solenoid on a stk car is spliced to wiring that goes to the ECU pin 4B and also to the circuit opening relay (so the pump will work when the key is HELD to Start).
As the wiring diagrams for the automatic car shows, the ECU gets this signal at ......3B on a black/blue wire. Prior to the black/blue the wire is black/red coming from the FEM-02 elect plug. See jpg attached.
That black/red wire is in the front harness and it gets to FEM-02 from the left side of the car where the starter etc are. So if you find a black/red over on the left side of the cars engine bay/starter area, most likely this is the same wire and if you splice whatever wire you have on the starter solenoid (small blade connector on the starter solenoid) then when you go to Start the ECU should see batt pwr at the starter and ECU pin 3B at the same moment.
That same wire that is attached to the starter solenoid on a stk car is spliced to wiring that goes to the ECU pin 4B and also to the circuit opening relay (so the pump will work when the key is HELD to Start).
09-12-11, 05:19 AM
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I didn't have 12v at that pin so spliced power where I did for the starter solenoid. I now have about 7-8v going through there but when I checked my battery its only just above 12v so its on charge tonight.
I ran out of time to grab some starter fluid so will be trying that out tomorrow if possible, but I did try to start it anyway and had no luck. If no go with the starter fluid Ill pull the I/C off and have a look to make sure I have everything in right.
I'll let you know
I ran out of time to grab some starter fluid so will be trying that out tomorrow if possible, but I did try to start it anyway and had no luck. If no go with the starter fluid Ill pull the I/C off and have a look to make sure I have everything in right.
I'll let you know
10-07-11, 08:26 PM
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A little update.
Had a complete ***** up of things. The starter began to spark everywhere so replaced it, now the fuel pump isn't turning on. Got some free time now so going to go try test that 3b pin and figure out whats up. Worse case I'll rewire the fuel pump. Its something I need to do anyway.
Had a complete ***** up of things. The starter began to spark everywhere so replaced it, now the fuel pump isn't turning on. Got some free time now so going to go try test that 3b pin and figure out whats up. Worse case I'll rewire the fuel pump. Its something I need to do anyway.
10-07-11, 10:19 PM
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Have power at the 3b pin, put a jumper on the yellow connector that tests the fuel pump - no go at the pump.
I'll figure out how to test the relay and see if its getting power to there. Its annoying as I haven't changed anything except getting power to 3b which is still working.
What could cause it to just stop?
I'll figure out how to test the relay and see if its getting power to there. Its annoying as I haven't changed anything except getting power to 3b which is still working.
What could cause it to just stop?
10-07-11, 10:21 PM
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It wasn't the wiring, I bench tested it and it was as if I was hitting 2 jumper starters together (just like it was on the car). Preformed the exact test on my spare, worked perfect. Chucked it back in and it turned over fine... Except for the fuel pump.