What new sport cars handle equal or better than FC?
11-13-06, 05:38 PM
#51
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Originally Posted by GodSquadMandrake
That's pretty sweet that you were able to pass one Elisa and kind of hang with the other. The Elise is just an amazing car so it proves that the FC has a lot of potential, obviously you weren't slacking either.
I don't know anyone who drives or drifts an FC professionally, do you?
I know someone who drives a MK2 Jetta professionally. His name is Brooks Hill. He is sponsored by Thule roof racks and is active in rally racing in north america.
That was at Rim of the World rally I believe and no it's not a photochop.
You won't see a Jetta drifting but will you see an FC launching 20 feet in the air?
Different strokes for different folks. FC's are well established in drifting and Jetta's are well established in rally.
Here's a pic from the last rallyx I went to:
Someone brought an 88 NA FC there that day too. They got stuck in that mud because with only 50% of the weight on the driving wheels they could not get enough traction to overpower the drag caused by the mud. A Jetta however has a higher percent of it's overall weight on the driving wheels giving it better traction in the mud.
I don't know anyone who drives or drifts an FC professionally, do you?
I know someone who drives a MK2 Jetta professionally. His name is Brooks Hill. He is sponsored by Thule roof racks and is active in rally racing in north america.
That was at Rim of the World rally I believe and no it's not a photochop.
You won't see a Jetta drifting but will you see an FC launching 20 feet in the air?
Different strokes for different folks. FC's are well established in drifting and Jetta's are well established in rally.
Here's a pic from the last rallyx I went to:
Someone brought an 88 NA FC there that day too. They got stuck in that mud because with only 50% of the weight on the driving wheels they could not get enough traction to overpower the drag caused by the mud. A Jetta however has a higher percent of it's overall weight on the driving wheels giving it better traction in the mud.
11-13-06, 06:11 PM
#53
Originally Posted by Black91n/a
I can't wait for the drift fad to die. Drifting has nothing to do with handling or going fast, so why would you bring it up in this discussion? How about asking for real racers oppinions, you know, those that compete against other drivers and against the clock? Road racing and autocross are good places to compare, drifting isn't.
Drifting is just automotive figure skating. Anything that needs a judge isn't a sport.
This isn't a discussion about drifting, so lets get back on topic and discuss handling.
Learn how to use caps properly, not every word needs a capital first letter, it makes it more difficult and annoying to read.
Drifting is just automotive figure skating. Anything that needs a judge isn't a sport.
This isn't a discussion about drifting, so lets get back on topic and discuss handling.
Learn how to use caps properly, not every word needs a capital first letter, it makes it more difficult and annoying to read.
Someone who speaks my language! I couldnt agree more. Good way you put it with the judge thing. Drifting (at least the American version) is gay as ****. Vipers, GTO's, Mustangs and the likes were NOT meant to drift, nor should they ever IMO
11-13-06, 06:45 PM
#54
Originally Posted by VacavilleFC
true we all are biased towards the 7's, by the way i sat in a elise at the sac car show this weekend and it has to be the smallest most unfomfortable car i've ever sat in
And why is it that American cars can't drift? If it does well at drifting, doesn't that make it a good drift car? Last time I checked drifting wasn't limited to Japanese cars.
11-13-06, 09:41 PM
#55
I am the stig.
Drifting is it's own thing. (Refrained from using "sport" there.) Cars are tuned differently, suspension setups are different, the objective is different. Drifting is a crowd pleaser... it's about flashy cars with bright paint jobs converting rubber into smoke and showing off.
Drift cars are tuned to drift. Handling is different. Leave drifting out of the handling discussion.
On the original topic, I would guess that any newer sports car that's around the same weight would handle better. Newer chassis design, newer suspension design (double wishbone vs trailing arm), newer shocks and springs... etc. It's only when you talk about cars that weigh 500 to 1000 lbs more that they start to handle like battleships.
And yes, our FC's are almost 20 years old, with worn bushings, suspension parts and, frequently, an exhaust system made of rust. For a young guy with a meager budget, it's about the best sports car you'll get. (At least in my case.)
Drift cars are tuned to drift. Handling is different. Leave drifting out of the handling discussion.
On the original topic, I would guess that any newer sports car that's around the same weight would handle better. Newer chassis design, newer suspension design (double wishbone vs trailing arm), newer shocks and springs... etc. It's only when you talk about cars that weigh 500 to 1000 lbs more that they start to handle like battleships.
And yes, our FC's are almost 20 years old, with worn bushings, suspension parts and, frequently, an exhaust system made of rust. For a young guy with a meager budget, it's about the best sports car you'll get. (At least in my case.)
11-13-06, 11:15 PM
#57
Originally Posted by Rotarctica
For what most car-crazy guys have to spend, the FC is the best bang for the buck on handling. Hands down.
11-14-06, 12:40 AM
#58
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Bang for buck winner is an early Miata, you can get them for pretty cheap and they're very good handling cars.
One thing that modern cars have going for them is stiffness. The old cars tended to be as stiff as a wet noodle (early 80's hatches especially, think Mk.I Rabbit), but they were light (below 2000lbs typ.). Now cars are heavier, but much, much stiffer. A stiffer chassis is a much better platform to design a suspension around, because there's less flexing to meddle with what the shocks and springs are trying to do.
One thing that modern cars have going for them is stiffness. The old cars tended to be as stiff as a wet noodle (early 80's hatches especially, think Mk.I Rabbit), but they were light (below 2000lbs typ.). Now cars are heavier, but much, much stiffer. A stiffer chassis is a much better platform to design a suspension around, because there's less flexing to meddle with what the shocks and springs are trying to do.
11-14-06, 01:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Sideways7
Yeah, the FC is a great handling chassis, but far from the best. Its bang for the buck, not overall superiority.
Originally Posted by Black91n/a
Bang for buck winner is an early Miata, you can get them for pretty cheap and they're very good handling cars.
One thing that modern cars have going for them is stiffness. The old cars tended to be as stiff as a wet noodle (early 80's hatches especially, think Mk.I Rabbit), but they were light (below 2000lbs typ.). Now cars are heavier, but much, much stiffer. A stiffer chassis is a much better platform to design a suspension around, because there's less flexing to meddle with what the shocks and springs are trying to do.
One thing that modern cars have going for them is stiffness. The old cars tended to be as stiff as a wet noodle (early 80's hatches especially, think Mk.I Rabbit), but they were light (below 2000lbs typ.). Now cars are heavier, but much, much stiffer. A stiffer chassis is a much better platform to design a suspension around, because there's less flexing to meddle with what the shocks and springs are trying to do.
11-14-06, 05:57 AM
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All these comments about the great handling of the S2000 - it certainly has a lot of grip, but it's apparently very twitchy. It's supposedly prone to violent & unpredictable snap oversteer at it's limits - I have a cousin (who had lots of autocross experience) who got in a very bad wreck that way.
11-14-06, 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by vhold
All these comments about the great handling of the S2000 - it certainly has a lot of grip, but it's apparently very twitchy. It's supposedly prone to violent & unpredictable snap oversteer at it's limits - I have a cousin (who had lots of autocross experience) who got in a very bad wreck that way.
11-14-06, 12:56 PM
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here are some actual numbers. same driver, too
stock 87 gxl, with toyo ra1 tires, 2:25's at thunderhill, car literally cannot break traction, in any direction.
86 base; ITS/PS1 race car; 2:07's at thunderhill
our honda challenge integra runs 2:05's... spec miata is about 2 seconds slower
stock 87 gxl, with toyo ra1 tires, 2:25's at thunderhill, car literally cannot break traction, in any direction.
86 base; ITS/PS1 race car; 2:07's at thunderhill
our honda challenge integra runs 2:05's... spec miata is about 2 seconds slower
11-14-06, 01:53 PM
#65
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Originally Posted by j9fd3s
here are some actual numbers. same driver, too
stock 87 gxl, with toyo ra1 tires, 2:25's at thunderhill, car literally cannot break traction, in any direction.
86 base; ITS/PS1 race car; 2:07's at thunderhill
our honda challenge integra runs 2:05's... spec miata is about 2 seconds slower
stock 87 gxl, with toyo ra1 tires, 2:25's at thunderhill, car literally cannot break traction, in any direction.
86 base; ITS/PS1 race car; 2:07's at thunderhill
our honda challenge integra runs 2:05's... spec miata is about 2 seconds slower
11-14-06, 02:43 PM
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Subaru STi, no joke. just drove an '04 with 59k miles and I am thinking of sellling my wideobdy LS1FC for it because the handling was so nimble yet plated, firm yet comfy and very similar to an S2000 but with the luxury of 4 doors and 4 adult sized seats. and it was on the original tires, half way worn yet 2+ years old (hard!) so it can only be nicer with fresh tires.
amazing car, it was LEAPS and BOUNDS ahead of a WRX in feel, performance and throttle response, oh yeah the 6speed tranny was a dream, light and crisp and super short gearing. can you tell I was impressed?!
amazing car, it was LEAPS and BOUNDS ahead of a WRX in feel, performance and throttle response, oh yeah the 6speed tranny was a dream, light and crisp and super short gearing. can you tell I was impressed?!
11-14-06, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by vhold
All these comments about the great handling of the S2000 - it certainly has a lot of grip, but it's apparently very twitchy. It's supposedly prone to violent & unpredictable snap oversteer at it's limits - I have a cousin (who had lots of autocross experience) who got in a very bad wreck that way.
that said, the car I drove was snapped sideways into a curb after an autox by the owner on the drive home... so yes it happens often
11-14-06, 03:36 PM
#68
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Originally Posted by owen is fat
Subaru STi, no joke. just drove an '04 with 59k miles and I am thinking of sellling my wideobdy LS1FC for it because the handling was so nimble yet plated, firm yet comfy and very similar to an S2000 but with the luxury of 4 doors and 4 adult sized seats. and it was on the original tires, half way worn yet 2+ years old (hard!) so it can only be nicer with fresh tires.
amazing car, it was LEAPS and BOUNDS ahead of a WRX in feel, performance and throttle response, oh yeah the 6speed tranny was a dream, light and crisp and super short gearing. can you tell I was impressed?!
amazing car, it was LEAPS and BOUNDS ahead of a WRX in feel, performance and throttle response, oh yeah the 6speed tranny was a dream, light and crisp and super short gearing. can you tell I was impressed?!
Your sense of balance comes from a series of tubes in your inner ear.
So we know that your sense of balance comes from your head. So the higher your head is above the car's roll center, the longer the lever arm is against your sense of balance and equilibrium.
Lever Arm
Also if the seating position of the car puts you closer to the front tires, you will feel like the car turns in faster because the polar moment will be decreased. This is obvious if you are used to driving something like a Jetta where you practically sit on top of the tires. When you get in an RX7 it feels like an eternity for the car to start turning in because you just don't feel it as quick even though it's happening.
Has anyone here ever raced go-karts? Did you notice that when you are flying around a corner that it doesn't seem like your going that fast, but yet the g-forces are pulling on your neck and arms? By the end of my first race my neck and arms were sore! That never happens in a car! I was actually experiencing a lot higher g-forces but it seemed like less because I was closer to the ground. My point is you have to judge a car's handling based on measureable things like time or speed. Feel is important too, it makes a car more fun, but it doesn't have much to do with racing.
11-14-06, 03:45 PM
#69
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Originally Posted by Sideways7
You should try a Caterham 7, they make the Elise feel like a luxury car.
And why is it that American cars can't drift? If it does well at drifting, doesn't that make it a good drift car? Last time I checked drifting wasn't limited to Japanese cars.
And why is it that American cars can't drift? If it does well at drifting, doesn't that make it a good drift car? Last time I checked drifting wasn't limited to Japanese cars.
11-14-06, 05:39 PM
#70
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TURN OFF THE CAPS!!!!!!!!
Ok, how's this, no sport has a human judge. Referee sure, but they don't control how many points you get (unless it's called back on a foul, which is different). A clock will be exactly the same for everyone, and in most racing, you're racing against other people, the time is inconcequential as long as you're first.
As was explained earlier, drifting is different than handling, there's a whole different setup and objective. It's not a good comparison, because the only object is to get the back end to slide out in the prettiest way possible. Since you're the only one who's advocated drifting as a good comparison and everyone ignored you or said that it's not a good comparison, or even on topic, then you can assume that no one here cares about you and your drifting oppinions, so take it somewhere else.
Ok, how's this, no sport has a human judge. Referee sure, but they don't control how many points you get (unless it's called back on a foul, which is different). A clock will be exactly the same for everyone, and in most racing, you're racing against other people, the time is inconcequential as long as you're first.
As was explained earlier, drifting is different than handling, there's a whole different setup and objective. It's not a good comparison, because the only object is to get the back end to slide out in the prettiest way possible. Since you're the only one who's advocated drifting as a good comparison and everyone ignored you or said that it's not a good comparison, or even on topic, then you can assume that no one here cares about you and your drifting oppinions, so take it somewhere else.
11-14-06, 06:09 PM
#71
i just cant accept drifting as being anything more than something that highschool kids do to look cool. Yeah its on tv and people get paid to do it, and yeah it started in Japan long before most of the people who do it here in America were even born. What it use to be in Japan is cool, what it is now in America is stupid. Waste of tires IMO. The typical response is "well you dont know what its all about, it takes skill, blah blah blah" Well yeah, so does figure skating, does it make it any less gay? NO! Awsome, you can slide the rear end around and go around a track! Im not gonna claim I havent had some fun going around a turn, but I call that more just "extreme oversteer" 
11-14-06, 07:36 PM
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Man! Whats happening to this discussion?? haha!!
Drifting does take skill (imo does not require ridicuously burning away rubber though)
but it is a totally different ordeal from "grip" handling which is what most ppl talk about when referring to "handling."
Comparisons of vehicles such as my 1987 RX-7 TurboII to my 2001 S2000 are hard to make and what is the criteria supposed to be anyway?? bone-stock? modified? price? price when new?
if my 7 was roughly $21399 in '87, that would be approx. (in 2006 dollars) $33596?? after accounting for some inflation.
$32740 for my S in 2001?? which one is the better deal???
But thats just being stupid.
i like my FC a lot. it definitely "feels" more powerful than the S by far (torque) and "feel"s faster (turbo) also but stock suspension easily loses to the S2000. BUT, with RB sways, Bilstein Coils and like 5 bars of assorted brands, it handles pretty damn sweet!!
But the steering still feels soft and unresponsive and its obvious i need to change a lot of bushings and what not and i could put in hard bushings and sport lower arms, radius rods, camber kit.... and the list goes on...
On the other hand, my S, which is equipped w/ Spoon sways, Bilstein Coils, and many bars handles like a dream... ive eliminated the so-called "twitchiness," most of the snap oversteer, (the FC was also prone to this before i put in rear toe eliminators)...
turn-in is like a go kart and you can "feel" every pebble on the friggin' road !!
How do you compare that? By how much i mod the car?
The FC was a top performing vehicle of its time in Motor Trend, Road and Track and so on..
for a car from 1987 it is a really good car and still has great potential to outperform newer cars. Thats why i bought one.
But new tech/design/materials/geometry makes sports cars better. Its very hard to compare realistically. its all really objective.
A properly restored and modded RX7 can prolly smoke many a car but likewise, someone could pour tens of thousands if not millions into a Civic, Accord or Skyline also.
so the end result is that i cherish my 7 and drive it like a demon and when i can will spend some money on it (prolly more than ill ever be able to sell it for) but thats why were "enthusiasts".
and for the ppl that mention autocross, rallying, and racing, those are pretty much Driver skill based. Cars do make some difference but ultimately, its the driver.
Drifting does take skill (imo does not require ridicuously burning away rubber though)
but it is a totally different ordeal from "grip" handling which is what most ppl talk about when referring to "handling."
Comparisons of vehicles such as my 1987 RX-7 TurboII to my 2001 S2000 are hard to make and what is the criteria supposed to be anyway?? bone-stock? modified? price? price when new?
if my 7 was roughly $21399 in '87, that would be approx. (in 2006 dollars) $33596?? after accounting for some inflation.
$32740 for my S in 2001?? which one is the better deal???
But thats just being stupid.
i like my FC a lot. it definitely "feels" more powerful than the S by far (torque) and "feel"s faster (turbo) also but stock suspension easily loses to the S2000. BUT, with RB sways, Bilstein Coils and like 5 bars of assorted brands, it handles pretty damn sweet!!
But the steering still feels soft and unresponsive and its obvious i need to change a lot of bushings and what not and i could put in hard bushings and sport lower arms, radius rods, camber kit.... and the list goes on...
On the other hand, my S, which is equipped w/ Spoon sways, Bilstein Coils, and many bars handles like a dream... ive eliminated the so-called "twitchiness," most of the snap oversteer, (the FC was also prone to this before i put in rear toe eliminators)...
turn-in is like a go kart and you can "feel" every pebble on the friggin' road !!
How do you compare that? By how much i mod the car?
The FC was a top performing vehicle of its time in Motor Trend, Road and Track and so on..
for a car from 1987 it is a really good car and still has great potential to outperform newer cars. Thats why i bought one.
But new tech/design/materials/geometry makes sports cars better. Its very hard to compare realistically. its all really objective.
A properly restored and modded RX7 can prolly smoke many a car but likewise, someone could pour tens of thousands if not millions into a Civic, Accord or Skyline also.
so the end result is that i cherish my 7 and drive it like a demon and when i can will spend some money on it (prolly more than ill ever be able to sell it for) but thats why were "enthusiasts".
and for the ppl that mention autocross, rallying, and racing, those are pretty much Driver skill based. Cars do make some difference but ultimately, its the driver.
11-15-06, 02:01 AM
#73
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^^^the best post in the whole thread....
BTW, I agree, drifting is stupid. I think it is fun to do, but having it as a sport is, quite simply, a waste of tires.
BTW, I agree, drifting is stupid. I think it is fun to do, but having it as a sport is, quite simply, a waste of tires.
11-15-06, 02:52 AM
#74
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most ppl that are crazy about drifting are the ppl that watched initial d.
drifting isnt stupid.
most ppl dont even know how drifting started.(japanese didnt start drifting, italians did. the japanese juss pioneered drifting into a craze) *japanese are the COPY KINGS of the world*
most noobs think drifting is the fastest way to turn.
the fc is a obsolite car when it comes to handling.
stock for stock it will lose to most cars unless the driver is a gangster
other than that, it can kill civics and integras and ricers so im not sadDDDDDD
ECONOMY CARS ARNT FOR RACING!
meow..
-jimmy
drifting isnt stupid.
most ppl dont even know how drifting started.(japanese didnt start drifting, italians did. the japanese juss pioneered drifting into a craze) *japanese are the COPY KINGS of the world*
most noobs think drifting is the fastest way to turn.
the fc is a obsolite car when it comes to handling.
stock for stock it will lose to most cars unless the driver is a gangster
other than that, it can kill civics and integras and ricers so im not sad
DDDDDDECONOMY CARS ARNT FOR RACING!
meow..
-jimmy
11-15-06, 03:14 AM
#75
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Originally Posted by jay3
ive never driven one so i cant say for sure, but isnt a mr2 better at handling than a fc? stock vs. stock. just looking at it makes me think of a go cart.
I used to own an MR2. I now own two NA Fc's. I like the fc better.
One reason only, and it may be my driving skills: When the FC rear steps out it tells you its coming. There is a hint and you can either give it more gas or just back off a little and it goes right into line. With the MR2, particularly the 91, when the rear end goes, it goes. Little warning, and with the engine behind you the rear end wants to lead the car. Once it starts you have one option, give it more power and hope you can get the rear to plant. Backing off the gas unsettles the rear more and you will lose it. When that happens the only option is two feet in and drive out of your rear view mirror.
Like I said, this might be because of my skill driving. However a lot of journalists commented when the MKII MR2 came out that it was a handful at the limit, and was best to not put it there. It handles like dream up to that point. my N/A was only like 2200 lbs. Very responsive, easy to manipulate, but once you messed up you lost all control. At least with the FC the front end still holds the engine, so the car will try to straighten out as the engine still wants to go straight ahead.
BC
It should be noted that EVERY time I think of my MR2 I miss it. It was quirky, under powered, burnt oil, and was long in the tooth, but it drove like no other car I have ever been in, was fun, loud, and uncompromising.
Sounds similar to the car im driving now. Quirky, underpowered (thats being resolved), brns oil and is long in the tooth. But its a blast to drive, handles different than anyother car I have ever been in, and is loud.
Last edited by anewconvert; 11-15-06 at 03:23 AM.