What new sport cars handle equal or better than FC?
11-15-06, 03:24 AM
#76
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Drifting, if you want to get technical, didnt spawn from kids in Japan. that is ignorance in its finest.
It spawned from the WRC and kids in Japan (and other locales) modifying it to have fun in the mountains/twisty roads. If you look at the WRC and half of the driving, they are sideways, or going to be sideways to make a 90, 120, or 180 degree corner. The difference with drifting and the WRC is this; drifting takes place mainly on roads, the WRC (while it has portions, or some whole tracks on roads,) it is mainly dirt, snow, gravel or another track medium.
Drifting has "points" and human judges. WRC still runs on a stop watch. Thats the first place drifters went wrong. They should try sliding for time and see what they get, or make an actual race out of it (1st place wins and such) instead of just "points" or, you overtake and you win. That would be an interesting pass, while burning your tires...
If you want to bag on Drift, thats fine, its not my thing, but its fun to do donuts, and "drift" if you will, a parking lot. But realize, Drift is only a modification of RALLY and WRC, which the 7 DID compete in, making it a candidate for this type of event (i refuse to call it a race...) as well.
Yes, drift may waste tires, but take a look at the NHRA, and the sheer amount of rubber they burn...then look at drift. Do you think that a whole day of racing on a 1320 foot track, with 20+ inch wide drag radials (with a pre race burnout everytime) DOESNT burn as much rubber as a day of drifting?
Let us compare the tires,
32x24x16 Hoosier Drag radials X2,
Falken Azenis RT-615's (That come at a maximum of 315/30R18 or 11.7 inches wide) X4
And remember, im only counting the REAR tires on the Drag car. And you call drifting a waste of tires? I would say that they are either very close, or drag is in the lead in the tire wasting. Especially since the NHRA and drag racing in general has been around for the last 40 years.
It spawned from the WRC and kids in Japan (and other locales) modifying it to have fun in the mountains/twisty roads. If you look at the WRC and half of the driving, they are sideways, or going to be sideways to make a 90, 120, or 180 degree corner. The difference with drifting and the WRC is this; drifting takes place mainly on roads, the WRC (while it has portions, or some whole tracks on roads,) it is mainly dirt, snow, gravel or another track medium.
Drifting has "points" and human judges. WRC still runs on a stop watch. Thats the first place drifters went wrong. They should try sliding for time and see what they get, or make an actual race out of it (1st place wins and such) instead of just "points" or, you overtake and you win. That would be an interesting pass, while burning your tires...
If you want to bag on Drift, thats fine, its not my thing, but its fun to do donuts, and "drift" if you will, a parking lot. But realize, Drift is only a modification of RALLY and WRC, which the 7 DID compete in, making it a candidate for this type of event (i refuse to call it a race...) as well.
Yes, drift may waste tires, but take a look at the NHRA, and the sheer amount of rubber they burn...then look at drift. Do you think that a whole day of racing on a 1320 foot track, with 20+ inch wide drag radials (with a pre race burnout everytime) DOESNT burn as much rubber as a day of drifting?
Let us compare the tires,
32x24x16 Hoosier Drag radials X2,
Falken Azenis RT-615's (That come at a maximum of 315/30R18 or 11.7 inches wide) X4
And remember, im only counting the REAR tires on the Drag car. And you call drifting a waste of tires? I would say that they are either very close, or drag is in the lead in the tire wasting. Especially since the NHRA and drag racing in general has been around for the last 40 years.
11-15-06, 03:28 AM
#77
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The problem is that it is faster to not slide. So you cant drift for times becuase you will have to have a JUDGE to determine that someone drifted ENOUGH. Otherwise it is just racing.
Face it drift is exactly as it was described earlier: Motorsport figure skating.
BC
Face it drift is exactly as it was described earlier: Motorsport figure skating.
BC
11-15-06, 04:10 AM
#78
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Im not contesting that it is actually a racing event, I dont mean to sound like that at all,
"But realize, Drift is only a modification of RALLY and WRC, which the 7 DID compete in, making it a candidate for this type of event (i refuse to call it a race...) as well."
While it may be motor sport figure skating, it does require talent to maintain a slide without crashing, but I agree, it is not a race.
I'm not a proponent of Drift, but I do have fun getting some oversteer in every once in a while.
"But realize, Drift is only a modification of RALLY and WRC, which the 7 DID compete in, making it a candidate for this type of event (i refuse to call it a race...) as well."
While it may be motor sport figure skating, it does require talent to maintain a slide without crashing, but I agree, it is not a race.
I'm not a proponent of Drift, but I do have fun getting some oversteer in every once in a while.
11-15-06, 05:01 AM
#79
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Notice that the WRC guys dont generally drift when one of the legs is on pavement. They usually drift when the car is on dirt.
The difference, of course, being that the fastest way around a corner on pavement is to grip, while the fastest way around a corner in dirt is with the rear end kicked out.
--Alex
The difference, of course, being that the fastest way around a corner on pavement is to grip, while the fastest way around a corner in dirt is with the rear end kicked out.
--Alex
11-15-06, 09:40 AM
#80
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Actually, in really tight corners in autocross (hairpin around a single cone for instance) the fastest way around is to get the back end to rotate around, but it's usually just an e-brake slide, not a drift. But in 99% of all scenarios grip is the faster way around a corner.
...because anyone who watches rally knows that they DO slide around tight hairpins.
11-15-06, 12:53 PM
#82
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sorry to say but I auto X my 86 n/a and it is worn out and on snow tires and I beat my friend in his 350Z all day long once I get everything done to the suspension this winter I plan to go beat my buddies 240z with a zxt swap!
11-15-06, 03:32 PM
#83
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Weightlifting has a judge.
I like the handling of my stock TII - I think the best attribute in any performance car is predictability. Some cars, like the 7 seem to be more nurturing and I feel happy going somewhere quickly in it. I also have an Elise - this is a car you have to learn. Like the guy said about the MR2 said about spinning "without warning", the precision required is not always what you want from a drive but when you you get it right it's formidable. For me, it depends on what mood I'm in. I've not had any track time in the TII yet but I'm looking forward to it.
I like the handling of my stock TII - I think the best attribute in any performance car is predictability. Some cars, like the 7 seem to be more nurturing and I feel happy going somewhere quickly in it. I also have an Elise - this is a car you have to learn. Like the guy said about the MR2 said about spinning "without warning", the precision required is not always what you want from a drive but when you you get it right it's formidable. For me, it depends on what mood I'm in. I've not had any track time in the TII yet but I'm looking forward to it.
11-15-06, 04:40 PM
#85
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Roof!
I've read about 7's for years and the rotary was a draw - to be honest I just wanted a dry car for the winter (Elise lets in water and driving any real distance in the wet gets old fast). My only criteria was that it had to be RWD and fun. I bought the TII on Ebay and I've been really pleased with just about everything (except the wiper switches). I think someone said it earlier, it's a lot of bang for your buck. I can see myself wanting to do some tuning on it but I want to get it into really good condition first.
I've read about 7's for years and the rotary was a draw - to be honest I just wanted a dry car for the winter (Elise lets in water and driving any real distance in the wet gets old fast). My only criteria was that it had to be RWD and fun. I bought the TII on Ebay and I've been really pleased with just about everything (except the wiper switches). I think someone said it earlier, it's a lot of bang for your buck. I can see myself wanting to do some tuning on it but I want to get it into really good condition first.
11-15-06, 05:10 PM
#86
Originally Posted by raptor22
Notice that the WRC guys dont generally drift when one of the legs is on pavement. They usually drift when the car is on dirt.
The difference, of course, being that the fastest way around a corner on pavement is to grip, while the fastest way around a corner in dirt is with the rear end kicked out.
--Alex
The difference, of course, being that the fastest way around a corner on pavement is to grip, while the fastest way around a corner in dirt is with the rear end kicked out.
--Alex
Back in the day, when street tire technology wasn't as good as it was now, drifitng in the mountain passes was the fastest way around most corners. You just didn't have enough grip in the tires to do the proper grip line, and then get on the throttle early enough to counteract the speed advantage of drifting the corner. When the Japanese referred to "the street", they referred to the touge, or mountain pass. The current generation of forum users most likely got involved in racing after improvements to tires were made, and henceforth, always had the notion that grip is faster than drift. Not to say they're wrong, but there were and are exceptions.
I agree, drifting as a spectacle should be removed from TV, it's stupid and a waste of tires. It takes away from what drifting was originally intended, to be the fastest way around a (some is probably a better word) corner. All the fans of drifting probably spawned from Initial D, but they don't realize, or don't care, that it was loosely based off of Keiichi Tsuchiya's early years, when he pioneered the use of drifting in the mountain pass. Not to say that he invented it, but shortly thereafter, he consistent had the quickest times down the moutain.
I'm in no way a fan of drifting, the event. What I am a fan of is drifting, when used to shave time off a lap or a sprint.
FYI......in the 70's, once again, when tire technology was nowhere near the level it is today, some Formula 1 cars would drift in the rain. The most famous proponent of this is the late Gilles Villeneuve.
11-15-06, 10:10 PM
#87
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Weight lifting has nothing to do with cars, and It isnt a sport. Anyone can do it. Hell my grandmother can lift weights, but before i start getting heated, i will stop my rant, and actually provide some thoughtful typing.
Ive seen a WRC STi make a 90 onto pavement from dirt, while sideways. No issues at all, and he hooked right up and away he went. Granted yes, they do try and maintain their traction on asphalt.
The fastest possible way around a corner more often than not, is with grip, since you can continue to accelerate, or maintain a higher speed. Sliding slows you down because of the friction involved with forcefully removing the rubber from the tires. I agree with that, and it is true obviously, or cars like the McLaren F1 (BMW model) would be sliding around turns at the Laguna Seca.
I still say drift, however, is not as big a consumer of tires as some other forms of racing...but this time, lets use NASCAR as an example. Yes, they go around a track and make left turns all day (and by the way, these cars do drift at times though rare, hence being "loose" in the turn...or tagging the wall on the exit)
In NASCAR you have 30+ race cars, with a total of 120 tires on the track at all times, unless a car crashes out. They go through multiple sets each race. Drift uses just as much rubber as any other racing event, and its just people out having fun. It isnt a waste of tires. Again, its still not my thing, but its ignorance to think that it is wasteful of tires, and not include any other form of racing as well.
Im really not trying to argue, or incite problems, but dont say that ONLY drift is a waste of tires. To you it may be a waste, but other people enjoy it, so let them have their fun. Generally they dont say anything about autoX or anything else that you enjoy doing, show them the same courtesy. Just realize that people have their own opinions and attacking them is not going to swing them around or help turn them away from the "dark side"
Anyways, just my piece.
Ive seen a WRC STi make a 90 onto pavement from dirt, while sideways. No issues at all, and he hooked right up and away he went. Granted yes, they do try and maintain their traction on asphalt.
The fastest possible way around a corner more often than not, is with grip, since you can continue to accelerate, or maintain a higher speed. Sliding slows you down because of the friction involved with forcefully removing the rubber from the tires. I agree with that, and it is true obviously, or cars like the McLaren F1 (BMW model) would be sliding around turns at the Laguna Seca.
I still say drift, however, is not as big a consumer of tires as some other forms of racing...but this time, lets use NASCAR as an example. Yes, they go around a track and make left turns all day (and by the way, these cars do drift at times though rare, hence being "loose" in the turn...or tagging the wall on the exit)
In NASCAR you have 30+ race cars, with a total of 120 tires on the track at all times, unless a car crashes out. They go through multiple sets each race. Drift uses just as much rubber as any other racing event, and its just people out having fun. It isnt a waste of tires. Again, its still not my thing, but its ignorance to think that it is wasteful of tires, and not include any other form of racing as well.
Im really not trying to argue, or incite problems, but dont say that ONLY drift is a waste of tires. To you it may be a waste, but other people enjoy it, so let them have their fun. Generally they dont say anything about autoX or anything else that you enjoy doing, show them the same courtesy. Just realize that people have their own opinions and attacking them is not going to swing them around or help turn them away from the "dark side"
Anyways, just my piece.
11-15-06, 10:26 PM
#88
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
They don't change tires in NASCAR because the tire is worn out, they change it because it's overheated and it's run out of useable grip.
In drift, the tires literally get torn to shreds.
Drifting in and of itself is a waste of tires (meaning they aren't being used to their full potential and are being worn out at a more than normal rate), but that's just part of the game. If they weren't wasting tires they'd just be racing.
In drift, the tires literally get torn to shreds.
Drifting in and of itself is a waste of tires (meaning they aren't being used to their full potential and are being worn out at a more than normal rate), but that's just part of the game. If they weren't wasting tires they'd just be racing.
11-15-06, 11:58 PM
#90
Lives on the Forum
Sure most forms of racing use tires at a very rapid rate, but drifting is the only "racing" event where they're purposefully obliterating tires.
+1 for NASCAR is stupid. Yawn, wake me when the race is over.
+1 for NASCAR is stupid. Yawn, wake me when the race is over.
11-16-06, 01:13 PM
#92
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My 2 cents after owning, and moding up my FC for alittle over 5 years now
FC is inferior to most new generation cars.
No matter how hard you try it's still a 20 year old car.
But I think it's best bang for the buck, and I like it that way.
Also, would you feel better winning with a better car, or an inferior car?
FC is inferior to most new generation cars.
No matter how hard you try it's still a 20 year old car.
But I think it's best bang for the buck, and I like it that way.
Also, would you feel better winning with a better car, or an inferior car?
11-16-06, 02:43 PM
#93
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Originally Posted by GodSquadMandrake
You basically just described what Volkswagen calls 'farfegnugen'. It's driving bliss that doesn't come from just all out performance, it comes from a well balanced car that is carefully engineered to give you the best overall driving experience possible. I've noticed that cars with a higher seating position that is further forward create this effect. I think it's because of simple physics. Let me explain...
Your sense of balance comes from a series of tubes in your inner ear.
So we know that your sense of balance comes from your head. So the higher your head is above the car's roll center, the longer the lever arm is against your sense of balance and equilibrium.
Lever Arm
Also if the seating position of the car puts you closer to the front tires, you will feel like the car turns in faster because the polar moment will be decreased. This is obvious if you are used to driving something like a Jetta where you practically sit on top of the tires. When you get in an RX7 it feels like an eternity for the car to start turning in because you just don't feel it as quick even though it's happening.
Has anyone here ever raced go-karts? Did you notice that when you are flying around a corner that it doesn't seem like your going that fast, but yet the g-forces are pulling on your neck and arms? By the end of my first race my neck and arms were sore! That never happens in a car! I was actually experiencing a lot higher g-forces but it seemed like less because I was closer to the ground. My point is you have to judge a car's handling based on measureable things like time or speed. Feel is important too, it makes a car more fun, but it doesn't have much to do with racing.
Your sense of balance comes from a series of tubes in your inner ear.
So we know that your sense of balance comes from your head. So the higher your head is above the car's roll center, the longer the lever arm is against your sense of balance and equilibrium.
Lever Arm
Also if the seating position of the car puts you closer to the front tires, you will feel like the car turns in faster because the polar moment will be decreased. This is obvious if you are used to driving something like a Jetta where you practically sit on top of the tires. When you get in an RX7 it feels like an eternity for the car to start turning in because you just don't feel it as quick even though it's happening.
Has anyone here ever raced go-karts? Did you notice that when you are flying around a corner that it doesn't seem like your going that fast, but yet the g-forces are pulling on your neck and arms? By the end of my first race my neck and arms were sore! That never happens in a car! I was actually experiencing a lot higher g-forces but it seemed like less because I was closer to the ground. My point is you have to judge a car's handling based on measureable things like time or speed. Feel is important too, it makes a car more fun, but it doesn't have much to do with racing.
although i thought your polar moment increases as you move further from the center of gravity?
