What the hell caused this...
11-30-11, 12:56 AM
#51
well, surge isn't actually the turbo rotating backwards, it is radically slowing down to nearly stalling then speeding up once the exhaust gases catch up, rinse and repeat very quickly. i can envision it isn't a very happy thing for the turbo to endure but this is the first i would have seen it really damage anything aside from a 2 step breaking the shaft. only the momentum of the slowing down puts backwards stress on the compressor, the blades are always trying to push air into the intake.
how high boost wise did you take this turbo to?
whatever the cause it seems to be pretty unique to your setup.
how high boost wise did you take this turbo to?
whatever the cause it seems to be pretty unique to your setup.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 11-30-11 at 01:01 AM.
11-30-11, 10:13 AM
#52
I'm still thinking it's the surge. I even made a new intake this last time to confirm it's not something getting sucked out of the air filter or pipe.
I really don't know what the boost pressure was getting to, I only revved it in the driveway. The trip I took around the block was at very low speed, and I brought it right back to fix exhaust leaks and acceleration enrichment (which is why I was revving it in the driveway).
Here's my configuration:
3" K&N filter, 3" aluminum intake, 2.5" intercooler piping w/ SSQV (finding something else to use now, however), modified throttle body with the double throttle valve butterflies removed, stock 4 port S4 TII engine, 3" exhaust, Megasquirt2 V3 ECU. That's it. Nothing off the wall, very common modifications.
I really don't know what the boost pressure was getting to, I only revved it in the driveway. The trip I took around the block was at very low speed, and I brought it right back to fix exhaust leaks and acceleration enrichment (which is why I was revving it in the driveway).
Here's my configuration:
3" K&N filter, 3" aluminum intake, 2.5" intercooler piping w/ SSQV (finding something else to use now, however), modified throttle body with the double throttle valve butterflies removed, stock 4 port S4 TII engine, 3" exhaust, Megasquirt2 V3 ECU. That's it. Nothing off the wall, very common modifications.
11-30-11, 08:34 PM
#53
Fail #3:
I just got a great deal from the supplier of my Garrett compressor wheels. I've bought a few from him, so he gave me a great deal on the 3rd one now. It's on its way, along with new Garrett bearings, and I just got done rolling the beads on the new flanged pipe for my Greddy BOV. Everything else is fine, and I don't feel like tossing superfluous cash at this now.
So now here's a brain tickler. What other method of testing could I try to employ to make sure this isn't going to happen again? I mean, am I just going to have to throw it on and hope this one's not going to grenade as well? It seems stupid to keep on rebuilding and rebuilding again and again, but I honestly don't know what else to do.
Thinking back now, compressor surge seems quite likely now. In the beginning, this damn thing was taking itself apart. Of course, I didn't use threadlocker. But even so, if I didn't have compressor surge hitting it, it would have never wanted to unwind itself like that.
God I hope this BOV fixes my issues. I'm building this turbo for the last time. If it does it again, I'm throwing something else in this car. At least I won't have to get new engine management, my MegaSquirt ECU can run anything that has injectors and spark plugs
I just got a great deal from the supplier of my Garrett compressor wheels. I've bought a few from him, so he gave me a great deal on the 3rd one now. It's on its way, along with new Garrett bearings, and I just got done rolling the beads on the new flanged pipe for my Greddy BOV. Everything else is fine, and I don't feel like tossing superfluous cash at this now.
So now here's a brain tickler. What other method of testing could I try to employ to make sure this isn't going to happen again? I mean, am I just going to have to throw it on and hope this one's not going to grenade as well? It seems stupid to keep on rebuilding and rebuilding again and again, but I honestly don't know what else to do.
Thinking back now, compressor surge seems quite likely now. In the beginning, this damn thing was taking itself apart. Of course, I didn't use threadlocker. But even so, if I didn't have compressor surge hitting it, it would have never wanted to unwind itself like that.
God I hope this BOV fixes my issues. I'm building this turbo for the last time. If it does it again, I'm throwing something else in this car. At least I won't have to get new engine management, my MegaSquirt ECU can run anything that has injectors and spark plugs
11-30-11, 09:14 PM
#54
New Turbo time!
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I would strong recommend running thread locker on it, it cant hurt and from what i understand you will always get a compressor surge at low boost where the BOV doesnt open otherwise it would leak when the boost is set quiet high.
The whole ordeal puzzled me for ages, i ran 1bar boost on my turbo every day for a year before i got it rebuilt, once that happend the car went for a dyno tune and the turbo spat the nut off at 10psi, i couldnt believe it.....
The whole ordeal puzzled me for ages, i ran 1bar boost on my turbo every day for a year before i got it rebuilt, once that happend the car went for a dyno tune and the turbo spat the nut off at 10psi, i couldnt believe it.....
11-30-11, 09:27 PM
#55
i would contact a few turbo shops and ask them. they will be the best ones to ask as far as recurring failures as turbos are their business.
and are all these turbos coming from the same source? if so i might consider the possibility that even your supplier is getting and selling knockoff parts. from what you've said it's barely seen any boost, something is really wrong there as the turbo hasn't even been stressed yet.
and are all these turbos coming from the same source? if so i might consider the possibility that even your supplier is getting and selling knockoff parts. from what you've said it's barely seen any boost, something is really wrong there as the turbo hasn't even been stressed yet.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 11-30-11 at 09:40 PM.
11-30-11, 09:54 PM
#56
I've been using threadlocker on it since the first one took itself apart.
Well, they're not actually garrett wheels, but I really don't suspect the wheel is the culprit here. Maybe they are... who knows. They look like they're of good quality when I get them. Nice and smooth casting, near polished machine work on the back, they even come perfectly balanced each time (says the balancing shop). Honestly, I'd have no idea how to get a hold of a true Garrett wheel if I wanted to.
The bearings I get though, they're the real deal. I don't fool around with those things.
Well, they're not actually garrett wheels, but I really don't suspect the wheel is the culprit here. Maybe they are... who knows. They look like they're of good quality when I get them. Nice and smooth casting, near polished machine work on the back, they even come perfectly balanced each time (says the balancing shop). Honestly, I'd have no idea how to get a hold of a true Garrett wheel if I wanted to.
The bearings I get though, they're the real deal. I don't fool around with those things.
11-30-11, 10:13 PM
#57
well, i'd try to get some information on them. if they're chinese they could be made from unskimmed cast coke cans, casting flaws can be very difficult to detect with the naked eye.
could also be something associated with the shop who is balancing the assembly.
just throwing out ideas.
could also be something associated with the shop who is balancing the assembly.
just throwing out ideas.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 11-30-11 at 10:16 PM.
11-30-11, 10:28 PM
#59
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Suck to see that keeps happening man, If you dont want to break your wallet try on a holset HX- 35 and if your lucky you'll find one with a upgraded HX-40, find one with a surge housing off of a 1995-1998 cummins manual pickups, The stock hx35 12cm^2 twinscroll turbine housing is a t3 flange housing and if you end up wrecking one of these you can find another fairly cheap or you can always upgrade to a Bullseye Power BatMoWheel technology for the Holset HX-40/HE351
12-11-11, 07:33 PM
#60
The more I look at the Holset turbos, the more I'm interested in one. I'm seriously considering an HX40 now.
I got my compressor wheel and bearings in the mail, then started disassembling the turbo. Bad idea to assume that this time things would be like the last 3. This one chewed up the thrust bearing, collar pieces, and backplate. Definitely didn't see that coming. So I decided to screw the whole hybrid thing and just put together a stocker for right now. I got it all back together just a little while ago and went for a ride. Things seem ok right now, but we'll see when I pull the intake back off. It's too dark to see right now, but I'll see tomorrow if something's chunky in there again. Shouldn't be, but I guess you never know. I can definitely tell a difference in power with the stock turbo, compared to the v-trim T04B. I'm thinking tax return season's coming up really soon, and I'll probably be buying the bits to run an HX40. I've already had the taste of decent power, and going backwards just isn't going to work.
I got my compressor wheel and bearings in the mail, then started disassembling the turbo. Bad idea to assume that this time things would be like the last 3. This one chewed up the thrust bearing, collar pieces, and backplate. Definitely didn't see that coming. So I decided to screw the whole hybrid thing and just put together a stocker for right now. I got it all back together just a little while ago and went for a ride. Things seem ok right now, but we'll see when I pull the intake back off. It's too dark to see right now, but I'll see tomorrow if something's chunky in there again. Shouldn't be, but I guess you never know. I can definitely tell a difference in power with the stock turbo, compared to the v-trim T04B. I'm thinking tax return season's coming up really soon, and I'll probably be buying the bits to run an HX40. I've already had the taste of decent power, and going backwards just isn't going to work.
12-11-11, 09:43 PM
#61
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I've always wondered about a BorgWarner turbo for the FC... Do you think it would work good, or would it be too pricey for some of the other options when it comes to the cost:power ratio?
12-11-11, 10:23 PM
#62
Red Pill Dealer
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Will the Holset turbo fit on the stock manifold?
12-12-11, 05:18 PM
#65
If the engine's blown this time, it's happening. I love the rotary to death, but I've got a family to support and I can't keep feeding my car with cash.
The stocker is destroyed too. I'm starting to wonder about the balancing shop I've been taking the rotating assembly to. They seem to do a good job, soda blasting the deposits off the turbine blades and polishing the journal surfaces, but I'm not too convinced of their balancing abilities now. Every blade on the compressor wheel is destroyed.
That can't be it though. There has to be some other reason as to why it's chewing my goddamn compressor wheels! At least it wasn't a brand new T04B wheel. I'm getting rather tired of forking out the money for those. I swear this turbo is cursed. Seriously, I've changed every component on it except for the S5 exhaust housing. It can't be that.... can it?
I've seen people run some huge borg-warner turbos on their FC. A while back, a member called ChaoticFC (or something like that) was building a peripheral ported 13bt with a massive borg warner of some sort. I'm sure it'd make some really good numbers. Actually, come to think of it, Aaron Cake runs a borg warner on "project Tina", I believe.
The stocker is destroyed too. I'm starting to wonder about the balancing shop I've been taking the rotating assembly to. They seem to do a good job, soda blasting the deposits off the turbine blades and polishing the journal surfaces, but I'm not too convinced of their balancing abilities now. Every blade on the compressor wheel is destroyed.
That can't be it though. There has to be some other reason as to why it's chewing my goddamn compressor wheels! At least it wasn't a brand new T04B wheel. I'm getting rather tired of forking out the money for those. I swear this turbo is cursed. Seriously, I've changed every component on it except for the S5 exhaust housing. It can't be that.... can it?
I've seen people run some huge borg-warner turbos on their FC. A while back, a member called ChaoticFC (or something like that) was building a peripheral ported 13bt with a massive borg warner of some sort. I'm sure it'd make some really good numbers. Actually, come to think of it, Aaron Cake runs a borg warner on "project Tina", I believe.
12-12-11, 06:56 PM
#66
a local bringing his car in is running a borg warner S475. the turbo weighs about 75lbs and is nearly as big as the 13B-RE engine it's strapped to. i laughed when i saw him wheeling his turbo around with a dolly.
i really don't believe it is surge related, and i suppose now it's also not the compressor blades or the compressor housing. it very well could be the shop balancing the assembly has a **** machine and his is actually making the turbos offbalance instead. if you see large machining marks on the wheels after sending it to them then they are doing something wrong.
only other thing i can think of is overtorquing the nuts you are possibly bending your shafts(wow that sounded dirty...). ideally when tightening the nut a T bar would be best to equal out the force being put on one side while tightening. that would also explain why the thrust bearings are getting torn up, these turbos are still either all offbalance or have bent shafts. most machine shops could easily tell you if the shafts are bent in a matter of minutes.
BUT the balancing should have shown a bent shaft so i'm not convinced your turbo shop knows what the hell they are doing.
i really don't believe it is surge related, and i suppose now it's also not the compressor blades or the compressor housing. it very well could be the shop balancing the assembly has a **** machine and his is actually making the turbos offbalance instead. if you see large machining marks on the wheels after sending it to them then they are doing something wrong.
only other thing i can think of is overtorquing the nuts you are possibly bending your shafts(wow that sounded dirty...). ideally when tightening the nut a T bar would be best to equal out the force being put on one side while tightening. that would also explain why the thrust bearings are getting torn up, these turbos are still either all offbalance or have bent shafts. most machine shops could easily tell you if the shafts are bent in a matter of minutes.
BUT the balancing should have shown a bent shaft so i'm not convinced your turbo shop knows what the hell they are doing.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 12-12-11 at 07:04 PM.
12-12-11, 07:06 PM
#67
I wonder now....
The original turbine shaft that came with the turbo ended up with some corrosion on the journal surfaces. I dipped it in carburetor dip to get all the crud off, then cleaned it very thoroughly when it came out after a few hours. I was VERY meticulous. The problem happened a couple days later (when the GPopshop rebuild kit came in) when I noticed it had some HUGE buildup of rust. I didn't coat the damn thing in oil, and it corroded in the south GA humidity, on my workbench, in the garage.
So I go and grab another turbine shaft from my stock of turbo parts. The journals were in good shape, everything was in perfect shape. So everything's said and done with, turbo's all balanced up, back in the car.
Keep in mind, the first one had the original turbine shaft in it, but it's the one that my dumbass didn't use loctite on the threads for, so that's why the poor compressor wheel on that one got all kinds of chewed up.
So after a little bit of running the engine, it chewed up. I pulled it apart, broke the shaft at the threads and saw that the CHRA had scoring where the bearings go in the housing. So I got another CHRA, turbine shaft, compressor wheel, rebuild kit, balanced, did it again. I buy a new wheel and rebuild kit, get the turbo apart and find that a lot more parts had given up. So now at this point, I decide to put together a stock turbo, since I have a backplate and everything needed to build one. I order yet another rebuild kit, put the stocker together and it chews up yet again. The original turbo is no more at this point. Different compressor housing, backplate, compressor wheel, thrust bearing and collar, CHRA, journal bearings, turbine shaft. The absolute only thing retained from the original hybrid that I bought is the S5 exhaust housing.
So I get the idea to go dig through my parts bin and see what the original turbine shaft looked like. Surprise, surprise, it's not the same. The major diameter is 1mm larger than the stock wheel. Minor diameters are the same. Here's what's weird though. On a stock turbo, the turbine inducer is sort of "closed" off. The one I pulled out of the hybrid apparently is "open". I don't really know how else to describe it. I also noticed that the tips on the inducer on the original one is about 11mm (the battery died in my digital caliper), whereas the stock one is right around 6mm (or just shy of). So it's bigger, and shaped differently, which may lead me to believe that the housing may have been machined to accept.
I can't believe I didn't see that before. The whole time I was just thinking the turbine shaft was just another stock one.
That being said now, would that cause any issues like I'm experiencing?
The original turbine shaft that came with the turbo ended up with some corrosion on the journal surfaces. I dipped it in carburetor dip to get all the crud off, then cleaned it very thoroughly when it came out after a few hours. I was VERY meticulous. The problem happened a couple days later (when the GPopshop rebuild kit came in) when I noticed it had some HUGE buildup of rust. I didn't coat the damn thing in oil, and it corroded in the south GA humidity, on my workbench, in the garage.
So I go and grab another turbine shaft from my stock of turbo parts. The journals were in good shape, everything was in perfect shape. So everything's said and done with, turbo's all balanced up, back in the car.
Keep in mind, the first one had the original turbine shaft in it, but it's the one that my dumbass didn't use loctite on the threads for, so that's why the poor compressor wheel on that one got all kinds of chewed up.
So after a little bit of running the engine, it chewed up. I pulled it apart, broke the shaft at the threads and saw that the CHRA had scoring where the bearings go in the housing. So I got another CHRA, turbine shaft, compressor wheel, rebuild kit, balanced, did it again. I buy a new wheel and rebuild kit, get the turbo apart and find that a lot more parts had given up. So now at this point, I decide to put together a stock turbo, since I have a backplate and everything needed to build one. I order yet another rebuild kit, put the stocker together and it chews up yet again. The original turbo is no more at this point. Different compressor housing, backplate, compressor wheel, thrust bearing and collar, CHRA, journal bearings, turbine shaft. The absolute only thing retained from the original hybrid that I bought is the S5 exhaust housing.
So I get the idea to go dig through my parts bin and see what the original turbine shaft looked like. Surprise, surprise, it's not the same. The major diameter is 1mm larger than the stock wheel. Minor diameters are the same. Here's what's weird though. On a stock turbo, the turbine inducer is sort of "closed" off. The one I pulled out of the hybrid apparently is "open". I don't really know how else to describe it. I also noticed that the tips on the inducer on the original one is about 11mm (the battery died in my digital caliper), whereas the stock one is right around 6mm (or just shy of). So it's bigger, and shaped differently, which may lead me to believe that the housing may have been machined to accept.
I can't believe I didn't see that before. The whole time I was just thinking the turbine shaft was just another stock one.
That being said now, would that cause any issues like I'm experiencing?
12-12-11, 07:14 PM
#69
i don't think so, keep in mind the blades at the edge of the major section of the turbine wheel will get chewed up on older turbos and appear worn, 1mm difference isn't much and could just be that difference in wear.
well after seeing the pictures it's definitely a different wheel than stock and the turbine housing would have to be machined to accept it. see how much higher the flat portion ends?
but i can't see why that would cause the turbo to fail, it would definitely hurt the efficiency if you put a stock turbine wheel in it though.
well after seeing the pictures it's definitely a different wheel than stock and the turbine housing would have to be machined to accept it. see how much higher the flat portion ends?
but i can't see why that would cause the turbo to fail, it would definitely hurt the efficiency if you put a stock turbine wheel in it though.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 12-12-11 at 07:17 PM.
12-12-11, 07:37 PM
#70
I'm trying to research it right now. It sucks that a lot of sizes are not metric, so I'm having to use a converter to see if these wheels I'm looking at are the right one. I took a look at BNR's website and saw that although their stage 4 is a 60-1 compressor, they use a P-trim turbine wheel. That may have been what was in there, but I'm having trouble trying to pinpoint just what kind of wheel I have here. I've seen all kinds of charts showing compressor wheels, but how about one for turbine wheels?
Edit:
Looks like a TA34 might be the one? Like I said, my caliper's dead, and there's not a very accurate scale on it for manual measurements. I really need a dial caliper. Anyways, the TA34 has some very close dimensions, anyone ever run into this before on a hybrid?
Edit:
Looks like a TA34 might be the one? Like I said, my caliper's dead, and there's not a very accurate scale on it for manual measurements. I really need a dial caliper. Anyways, the TA34 has some very close dimensions, anyone ever run into this before on a hybrid?
12-12-11, 09:04 PM
#71
I need to do some research. I'm seriously considering pulling the engine for a port job and upgrading to a T4 manifold and going with a Holset. I have to give props for 7slidesgood for showing me that. Looking around, they can be bought used for a literal song and dance routine. Seems like the consensus is to skip over the HX35 and go straight for the 40, but I'm starting to look at the HX52 
Obviously, it's absolutely ginormous, and I'll have to see if it's actually even going to spool on a 13b. Seems like, from what I've read so far, that they seem to spool pretty quickly, and can take one hell of a beating and never let you down. The HX52 pumps out an impressive 88lbm/min. Volvo semi-trucks use these things. Seems like just a little bit of overkill, but damn my car would.... never have traction ever again
Edit: Looks like it's going to be the HX52 that I'll be getting!
Obviously, it's absolutely ginormous, and I'll have to see if it's actually even going to spool on a 13b. Seems like, from what I've read so far, that they seem to spool pretty quickly, and can take one hell of a beating and never let you down. The HX52 pumps out an impressive 88lbm/min. Volvo semi-trucks use these things. Seems like just a little bit of overkill, but damn my car would.... never have traction ever again Edit: Looks like it's going to be the HX52 that I'll be getting!
04-01-12, 08:14 PM
#72
Well, I figured I don't have the time to pull the engine, get it machined to accept studs, rebuild it, fabricate a non-shitty (read "not ebay) manifold, fit the turbo, fabricate new exhaust, etc, etc. That also takes money... hard to justify spending all that money to my wife 
Anyways, I bought a used S4 turbo. I swapped on the S5 hot side, slapped the turbo on, and started it up. Everything sounded great, so I turned the car off and pulled the intake off to see if the blades were still intact.
They were.
So I go for a drive, slowly roll into boost, eventually working into full boost. I brought it home to make sure all the blades were still there, and they were.
So here you go, you self-exploding piece of **** turbo that wouldn't stop eating compressors:
**** you, you're going in the garbage, and no piece of you will ever be used to screw over another person, ever again.
Lucky me, my car still has good compression, and all the apex seals are still there.
Anyways, I bought a used S4 turbo. I swapped on the S5 hot side, slapped the turbo on, and started it up. Everything sounded great, so I turned the car off and pulled the intake off to see if the blades were still intact.
They were.
So I go for a drive, slowly roll into boost, eventually working into full boost. I brought it home to make sure all the blades were still there, and they were.
So here you go, you self-exploding piece of **** turbo that wouldn't stop eating compressors:
**** you, you're going in the garbage, and no piece of you will ever be used to screw over another person, ever again.
Lucky me, my car still has good compression, and all the apex seals are still there.
04-01-12, 10:29 PM
#73
Sideways is the only way
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read the whole thing. holy ****. patience is with you. if it were me I would have literally pulled the engine out by hand and chucked it across the room in a hulk moment. and that would be after I rebuilt it and it was crap the second time. lol. Sooooooo happy to see a happy ending for you man. sometimes I'm happy I haven't rebuilt my t2 engine and am rocking NA, then I floor it with my probably 100 rwhp (5th/6th ports don't work) and a civic hatch is laughing at me. 
... But it works great with 156k origional miles and more reliable then my previous 94 saturn, 99 grand am, and current 00 impreza RS that I never beat on and threw a rod at 159k miles. score 1 for 25 year old hawtness lol...errr, with 100 rwhp
... But it works great with 156k origional miles and more reliable then my previous 94 saturn, 99 grand am, and current 00 impreza RS that I never beat on and threw a rod at 159k miles. score 1 for 25 year old hawtness lol...errr, with 100 rwhp
04-02-12, 09:06 AM
#75
I believe it's the balancing shop now. There's no way that with as much experience I have building stuff like this that it's anything I could have possibly done. The balancing shop said they balanced the wheels separately, but here's what I'm thinking. From my knowledge with balancing, there's 2 different ways to balance something. The first is static balancing, which is absolutely not going to work on a turbocharger. The second would be dynamic balancing, which accounts for not only radial forces, but radial forces from one side to another (think "hop, for static, "wobble" for dynamic). So, if they balance the components individually, the dynamic balance could be off when they assemble the unit as a whole.
Right?
Right?