Tofuball

Yeh, today I'm going to try a whole wad of stuff, this thread is FULL of information

Thanks everyone!

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<OFF TOPIC>
Hailers: Hey, what in the world did you do with those TB parts I sent a long time ago? I was always wondering what use you had for those
</OFF TOPIC>

muythaibxr

I don't think the wideband is to blame for his problems.... (btw, tofu wasn't reading the values, on the computer with the techedge, I was, and he must've misheard me a few times, so I'm going to correct)

Basically what we see is around 22:1 at idle, according to the megasquirt forums, if you're running EXTREMELY rich you'll see things like 20:1 or higher on the wideband because you'll have actual liquid fuel getting into the exhaust. To run this rich, you basically have to be misfiring on occasion, and I think this might be what's happening.

When he blips the throttle, it'll drop as low as 10:1 (maybe lower), and then when he lifts off the throttle, it'll jump up to 45-50:1... Which I'm told is normal (58:1 is "free-air").

The sensor was calibrated twice as he said before... and reads free air the way it should, and the reading drops as low as 9:1 when I take a lighter and spray butane on the sensor... meaning I think the sensor and controller are working fine.

As an aside, when the car was idling bad, we checked some stuff, and there was some crap leaking out past the threads on one of the spark plugs, so that rotor probably had bad compression while we were testing... :-P which would explain misfiring. Tofu cleaned both leading sparkplugs, and made sure they were tightened in properly, and After that, we never really hooked the laptop back up, so we aren't sure what AFR's we were getting after he fixed that problem. After he fixed that problem, the car idled a lot better though.

Anyway, until we are able to get a computer hooked to it again, he's just going to check some of the non-wideband related stuff I think... TPS, computer, coolant sensor, ACV, etc... (I won't be able to go there with my computer till next tuesday, and his computer apparently isn't working).

YearsOfDecay

Not that I don't like the megasquirt.... Like i said, i've built a few of them... its awesome for what it does.. however...... it has its limitations....

I don't know that the MegasquirtII, even with the newer ignition module will be able to propery control the ignition on a rotary, it've very rudimentary and only has control capability for one coil....... I would stary VERY far away from that...... Which is why i suggested using the stock computer for ignition...

You also say you want to eliminate the TPS.... You're going to have to put another one on anyway, the megasquirt uses a TPS just like any other standalone!!

You say that the SAFC cost more and does less..... True....... however, its triued and true tech

muythaibxr

Actually wrong... Megasquirt with the MSnS extra code is capable of controlling Ford EDIS and other types of ignition, and there's a user on these forums that used it to control ignition using dual EDIS modules.

There is also a "staged injection" mode on the megasquirt with the MSnS-extra code that allows you to run staged injection in exactly the same way the stock computer does it and allows you to do this from a single fuel map.

Also, you CAN eliminate the TPS, and use MAP changes to enrich or lean out the mixture instead of the TPS (again with the MSnS extra code .

There are several people using megasquirt on rotary engines with no problems.

I'd say I agree with tofu, Megasquirt with MSnS-extra and the Techedge are a POWERFUL combination.... for a lot cheaper than SAFC/SAFC2

YearsOfDecay

Thats exactly what the instructions tell you...... now lets see the average garage monkey on this forum try and get it to work.....

Further, The existing second gen coilspacks are very well suited for their job.. the megasquirt cannot control them, now you gotta buy some more parts...

I already said that the megasquirt is an excellent fuel computer for the price and will work in that function adequately. I plan on installing one on a project i have comming up... but i will be using another form of ignition control.

you CAN.... but then you also eliminate any functions assiciated with the TPS.. like throttle movement enrichment.... A TPS signal allows you to "anticipate' the change in intake parameters as you depress the throttle, and add fuel to the mix before the pressure sensor has time to react... a TPS is a useful tool, why get rid of it. the Megasquirt doesn't have to use the stock TPS (wich is over 15 years old by now)... you can use any style TPS with the correct signal range

I don't doubt it.

I'm simply giving you my opinions on it. Its cheaper, its functional, but it has its place... and its place is NOT controlling my 4K$ motor and turbo investment.. I'll stick with the Haltech.

You metnioned the Tech-edge wideband..... why don't you ask Dr. Dave at KDR what he thinks of them... (then again, he may have changed his mind since they appear to be giving him repeat motor rebuild customers) I'd use it to tune my lawnmower to save wear and tear on the Autronic..... but thats about it.

YearsOfDecay

Back to the MAIN subject.....

Have you figured out what is going on with that O2 meter yet???

muythaibxr

The person I saw that was running the dual edis setup was using 4 of the trailing coils from an rx7... they worked fine.

That's what I'm saying, in many cases, using the MAP change to do that works just as well, the difference in reaction time is maybe a few milliseconds. Why use a TPS that's broken, and costs a lot to replace when you can just run without it? You aren't actually eliminating the functions that a TPS performs, you're moving those functions to the map sensor. In some cases with a modded engine, a small change in TPS makes a huge difference in the MAP, (and the amount of air going into the engine) so it's actually BETTER to use the MAP instead of TPS for acceleration enrichment, because it more accurately represents the amount of change that the engine goes through when the throttle is pressed.

Also, as for using ANY TPS, the tps on the 13b is weird compared to most other TPS's... weird in that it pushes in and out instead of being like any other potentiometer and turning back and forth in dial fashion. I guess you could MAKE something work if you really wanted to.


That's up to you, My opinion is why spend thousands of dollars on something when you can spend hundreds and get it to perform the same function, AND have the source code for it available to you so you can make it do whatever it doesn't do already.

For just about every product I've ever tried (not just for cars) there's always someone that'll tell you they'd never use it because ... [blank]

I've honestly never heard anything bad about the TechEdge, except that with a turbocharged car, you have to be careful about where you put the sensor, because the increased pressure can change the sensor's reading. That's not really the techedge's fault though, that's the sensor's fault and can be fixed by using the NTK sensor instead, or putting the sensor in a different place. TechEdge IS the best DIY option. And that's from just about every other forum I've been on (mostly from the megasquirt forums though). And again, it costs like $200 with the sensor. IT's a Do-it-yourself controller (well can be) and that's why I like it. Spend a minimal amount of cash, build it yourself (IE learn something), and install it on your car, and have it work pretty much as well as most of the full commercial solutions.

Maybe you're right about the average garage monkey installing this stuff... but I was assuming that the people here aren't your average garage monkey.

muythaibxr

Like I said before, when we had the laptop hooked to the techedge, the car was misfiring at idle probably due to low compression since one of the spark plugs was a little loose. After tofu tightened it, the car seemed to idle ok, but we didn't get a chance to check what the sensor was reading on the laptop. We're not going to be able to check it on the laptop until probably next Tues evening.

However, I believe as I type, tofu is changing the TPS and fixing some other problems that he already suspected his car was having.

So the short answer is ... we'll see next Tuesday

Tofuball

Woo, this thread GREW since I last looked at it

I have to look at Brandon's car today, but I'll be definitely trying to do my TPS today too :O

Tofuball

STATUS: Banged out a lot of errors, set a lot of sensors, replaced the whole TB and TPS. Everything in spec now. Just gotta test it on thursday.

The WBO2 read ultra lean while running with the errors today, vac leak suspected culprit.

Just an update, more thursday.

foild

well, i hate to throw this is the mix..
but i got a 86 NA with a RB Downpipe/straightpipe/corksport single exit cat back, and intake.. my releif solenoid is unplugged at the connecor (thanks to hailers) and i read 11.7 AFR at idle, and i read anywhere from 12 - 15 or 16 at a high spike on my zeitronix wideband.

i dont know why im apparently running this lean, my car runs fine.. no bucking, etc etc. i am taking my car to a tuner to see if something apparent is causing this problem on fri or saturday, but as far as i can tel (since i know the sensor is reading properly) my NA is running lean at WOT.

weird?
yes

HAILERS

Before going to the tuner, take the time to remove the belt off the airpump and try one more time. Just a thought.

foild

see, i would do that if i didn't have my 6 ports working off the air pump...

hrmm

HAILERS

I think it's still woth doing even if the auzillary ports won't work. Just a temporary thing to see if SOMEHOW the airpump is still influencing things. It's a bit of a bother removing the belt and then having to reinstall it, but it's worth doing. Cost free just to find out FOR SURE.

foild

yeah, i think i may have to do that..
even driving under regular load seems like it is around 12 - 13 afr.. but wot its up in atleast the 14's...
im gonna take the belt off, just to check it out.

Tofuball

Post with the results please

HAILERS

Do as foild did. If you have a acv and airpump working, then you'll get lean readings at idle. foild had a thread just like yours. He took the advice and when he disabled the acv at idle, his afr went down where it should be. Again, the air from the airpump is sent to the exaust ports via the acv. The exaust ports are before the 02 sensor, therefore a lean reading is seen at idle. Please, please, please erase all the b.s you've read on this forum that makes people thing that the air from the airpump is sent exclusively to the split air pipe. It only goes to the split air pipe SOMETIMES. And sure as heck not at idle.

muythaibxr

Yeah, that's the info I got from someone on the Techedge mailing list. He said that with the Airpump/ACV hooked up, you can get very weird readings at idle, and leaner than you should throughout the rev-range.

I just think that some of tofuball's other problems are influencing the reading as well; I think it was already running lean due to some of the problems, which were causing the car to buck HARD. (I think we ironed out these problems, but as far as I know, tofu hasn't tested with the fixes) I think the actual lean condition, combined with the ACV/airpump still being operational caused the AFR reading to be super-lean.

Tofuball

I had an FD fuel pump, that made me run rich, and a vac leak, that made me run lean, together, the car ran pretty OK

But when I replaced the fuel pump with a regular N/A pump, thats when it went ultramegalean :-p

I hope it works OK, I'm gonna check it out today.

sudseh

tofu, could I try out that FD pump on my car? I want to see if any of my issues are resolved.

suds.

muythaibxr

tofu: lemme know if the car's running ok today, if so I'll be out to the garage tuesday and we'll see what the AFR reading is like, and possibly update your techedge to the latest firmware, even if it is reading right.

Tofuball

Suds: You dont want the FD pump on your car, it's an N/A. You would run ULTRA rich. What kind of issues are you having? It could just be the in-tank filter/sock or the O-ring.

muythaibxr

Found the problem with tofu's car, it was the blue solonoid valve. Unplug that and the engine runs great... now that means the solonoid itself could be bad, or the air or coolant temp sensors could be bad, or the ECU itself could be bad.

The O2 sensor controller reads exactly what it should when this solonoid is unplugged though, around 13.8 at idle, and it does what we expect when revved.

HAILERS

BLUE is the RELIEF SOLENOID. Dumps the airpump air overboard overboard into the silencer, when de-energized.

muythaibxr

hrmm, I guess I read the manual wrong then. I'm not sure how that could be causing the problem.