WBO2 installed! Why am I running so RICH?!
01-12-05, 07:15 AM
#1
Jesus is the Messiah
Thread Starter
WBO2 installed! Why am I running so RICH?!
Yep, I've got great spark, 120psi on both rotors, freshly cleaned injectors (cruzinproformance) and a couple mods . . .
But according to the WBO2 (that was freshly calibrated before installation) I am running ~25:1 fuel! Mega lean? Beyond free air? I Hit the gas and it drops to ~15:1 for a moment for the acceleration enrichment. Let off the gas and ratios of 34:1 occur! How is that possable?
So we looked up the operation of the O2 sensor and it says readings like this can be caused by blocking the sensor by huge clouds of unburned gas, if you're running ultra rich or missing.
Any ideas why it is so rich? Fuel pressure regulator? Or for some reason is this normal? Could the WBO2 sensor be wrong? (It reacts fine, and was freshly calibrated before install)
Thanks!
But according to the WBO2 (that was freshly calibrated before installation) I am running ~25:1 fuel! Mega lean? Beyond free air? I Hit the gas and it drops to ~15:1 for a moment for the acceleration enrichment. Let off the gas and ratios of 34:1 occur! How is that possable?
So we looked up the operation of the O2 sensor and it says readings like this can be caused by blocking the sensor by huge clouds of unburned gas, if you're running ultra rich or missing.
Any ideas why it is so rich? Fuel pressure regulator? Or for some reason is this normal? Could the WBO2 sensor be wrong? (It reacts fine, and was freshly calibrated before install)
Thanks!
01-12-05, 07:48 AM
#3
Jesus is the Messiah
Thread Starter
The WBO2 has its own heater, Its bad for it to run without the heater. It takes about 5 seconds or so to warm up. The car was also at operating tempeture. 
I should also add that my car takes a whole lot of cranking to make it start.
It used to start with just the flick of the wrist, but now it doesnt anymore (I have no clue why, it changed a while ago). My GXL also starts almost instantly.
I should also add that my car takes a whole lot of cranking to make it start.
It used to start with just the flick of the wrist, but now it doesnt anymore (I have no clue why, it changed a while ago). My GXL also starts almost instantly.
01-12-05, 08:36 AM
#4
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I'm probably reading this thread wrong, but........I don't believe a car/engine will run at lean ratios of 25 whatever to one. The wideband is wrong if the engine is actually running and you see figures like that.
If your only seeing figures of 25/1 or even 45/1 when you let off the throttle, that's normal. But if you read 15/1 when stepping on the throttle, thats too lean for some reason. SAFC.
I'm probably reading the thread wrong. Missed something here.
If your only seeing figures of 25/1 or even 45/1 when you let off the throttle, that's normal. But if you read 15/1 when stepping on the throttle, thats too lean for some reason. SAFC.
I'm probably reading the thread wrong. Missed something here.
01-12-05, 08:48 AM
#5
Jesus is the Messiah
Thread Starter
I'm saying the WBO2 reads ultra lean when it is really means ultra rich.
I see those figures at idle.
I am not going to SAFC. I'm going megasquirt (thats why I got the WBO2 in the first place)
I see those figures at idle.
I am not going to SAFC. I'm going megasquirt
(thats why I got the WBO2 in the first place)
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01-12-05, 12:33 PM
#8
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Originally Posted by Tofuball
The WBO2 has its own heater, Its bad for it to run without the heater. It takes about 5 seconds or so to warm up. The car was also at operating tempeture.
I should also add that my car takes a whole lot of cranking to make it start.
It used to start with just the flick of the wrist, but now it doesnt anymore (I have no clue why, it changed a while ago). My GXL also starts almost instantly.
I should also add that my car takes a whole lot of cranking to make it start.
It used to start with just the flick of the wrist, but now it doesnt anymore (I have no clue why, it changed a while ago). My GXL also starts almost instantly.
01-12-05, 02:04 PM
#10
The mystery of the prize.
can you try the wideband on a different car that has a wideband on it, so you can confirm the wideband works properly
is it possible there is air getting injected dilluting the exhaust before the o2 sensor, it will make your readings ridiculously lean.
is it possible there is air getting injected dilluting the exhaust before the o2 sensor, it will make your readings ridiculously lean.
01-12-05, 03:09 PM
#11
Jesus is the Messiah
Thread Starter
Nah, no air before, the O2 sensor is before the cat, thus before the airpipe.
Before that, is a new RB header with a new gasket on it
Good idea though.
Before that, is a new RB header with a new gasket on it
Good idea though.
01-12-05, 03:36 PM
#12
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10:0 to one is rich and 20.0:1 is stupid lean...... at crusing speeds, rotary's will start to buck if the A/F goes above 14.5:1 or so. Under a load, they will detonate at this range.. (turbos will detonate under boost if the A/F's get to 13.... less under higher boost... in general... intake charge temp plays in as well.)
Take the wideband out..... give it power, let it warm up and hit it with a propane torch.... it should read right around 14.7:1 (propane burnes at stoich in the air.....
At idle... you should be seeing right around 13.0:1... RX's will not idle much leaner than 13.3:1 or so they will HUNT HUNT HUNT.. much richer than 12.6:1 and the idle will dance around. So if your car is idleing normally, and your WBO2 is showing something out of this range.... its bunked
On an N/A with exhaust and intake mods, the A/F's tend to get really rich at higher RPM's under WOT.. Before i put the SAFC on my old GTU i was seeing A/F's in the 10's and loosing a LOT of power after 5K....
What type of WBO2 is it and how did you calibrate it and where is it mounted.... something is not right with the WBO2
Also.. Are you planning on ditching the ECU injection control and running the Megasquirt to control your injectors????? .
most guys i know use the megasquirt as an additional injector controler for a turbo car..... N/a's usually need fuel taken out
The Megasquirts are a cheap and reliable way to add Fuel injection to a car that never had it... but i wouldn't replace the stock ECU with it..... the stock ECU and an SAFC is going to be a MUCH better combo.
Take the wideband out..... give it power, let it warm up and hit it with a propane torch.... it should read right around 14.7:1 (propane burnes at stoich in the air.....
At idle... you should be seeing right around 13.0:1... RX's will not idle much leaner than 13.3:1 or so they will HUNT HUNT HUNT.. much richer than 12.6:1 and the idle will dance around. So if your car is idleing normally, and your WBO2 is showing something out of this range.... its bunked
On an N/A with exhaust and intake mods, the A/F's tend to get really rich at higher RPM's under WOT.. Before i put the SAFC on my old GTU i was seeing A/F's in the 10's and loosing a LOT of power after 5K....
What type of WBO2 is it and how did you calibrate it and where is it mounted.... something is not right with the WBO2
Also.. Are you planning on ditching the ECU injection control and running the Megasquirt to control your injectors????? .
most guys i know use the megasquirt as an additional injector controler for a turbo car..... N/a's usually need fuel taken out
The Megasquirts are a cheap and reliable way to add Fuel injection to a car that never had it... but i wouldn't replace the stock ECU with it..... the stock ECU and an SAFC is going to be a MUCH better combo.
Last edited by YearsOfDecay; 01-12-05 at 03:47 PM.
01-12-05, 03:45 PM
#13
The mystery of the prize.
Originally Posted by Tofuball
Nah, no air before, the O2 sensor is before the cat, thus before the airpipe.
Before that, is a new RB header with a new gasket on it
Good idea though.
Before that, is a new RB header with a new gasket on it
Good idea though.
Though I am not absolutely 100% on this since I did not study the stock emissions b.s. that much, I do suspect strongly that the stock configuraion injects air @ the exhaust port sleeves under some conditions, and if the acv&cv is not functioning properly maybe under all conditions. Check this one out before going crazy.
Did you install the ACV blockoff plate that comes with the RB header?
01-12-05, 04:02 PM
#14
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this is going to be a dumb question, but have you tested this on the road? under load? i think that you should at least try wailing on the car a bit to see if maybe its just breaking in.
ive got the same starting problems after changing injectors.. perhaps it has something to do with the stock injector wiring being disturbed. those things are very sensitive id imagine.
ive got the same starting problems after changing injectors.. perhaps it has something to do with the stock injector wiring being disturbed. those things are very sensitive id imagine.
01-12-05, 07:58 PM
#18
Laying Down Rotary Law
ALL true!
My car bucks/hesitates if goes to 14.7-15.1
very good pointers
My car bucks/hesitates if goes to 14.7-15.1
very good pointers
Originally Posted by YearsOfDecay
10:0 to one is rich and 20.0:1 is stupid lean...... at crusing speeds, rotary's will start to buck if the A/F goes above 14.5:1 or so. Under a load, they will detonate at this range.. (turbos will detonate under boost if the A/F's get to 13.... less under higher boost... in general... intake charge temp plays in as well.)
Take the wideband out..... give it power, let it warm up and hit it with a propane torch.... it should read right around 14.7:1 (propane burnes at stoich in the air.....
At idle... you should be seeing right around 13.0:1... RX's will not idle much leaner than 13.3:1 or so they will HUNT HUNT HUNT.. much richer than 12.6:1 and the idle will dance around. So if your car is idleing normally, and your WBO2 is showing something out of this range.... its bunked
On an N/A with exhaust and intake mods, the A/F's tend to get really rich at higher RPM's under WOT.. Before i put the SAFC on my old GTU i was seeing A/F's in the 10's and loosing a LOT of power after 5K....
What type of WBO2 is it and how did you calibrate it and where is it mounted.... something is not right with the WBO2
Also.. Are you planning on ditching the ECU injection control and running the Megasquirt to control your injectors????? .
most guys i know use the megasquirt as an additional injector controler for a turbo car..... N/a's usually need fuel taken out
The Megasquirts are a cheap and reliable way to add Fuel injection to a car that never had it... but i wouldn't replace the stock ECU with it..... the stock ECU and an SAFC is going to be a MUCH better combo.
Take the wideband out..... give it power, let it warm up and hit it with a propane torch.... it should read right around 14.7:1 (propane burnes at stoich in the air.....
At idle... you should be seeing right around 13.0:1... RX's will not idle much leaner than 13.3:1 or so they will HUNT HUNT HUNT.. much richer than 12.6:1 and the idle will dance around. So if your car is idleing normally, and your WBO2 is showing something out of this range.... its bunked
On an N/A with exhaust and intake mods, the A/F's tend to get really rich at higher RPM's under WOT.. Before i put the SAFC on my old GTU i was seeing A/F's in the 10's and loosing a LOT of power after 5K....
What type of WBO2 is it and how did you calibrate it and where is it mounted.... something is not right with the WBO2
Also.. Are you planning on ditching the ECU injection control and running the Megasquirt to control your injectors????? .
most guys i know use the megasquirt as an additional injector controler for a turbo car..... N/a's usually need fuel taken out
The Megasquirts are a cheap and reliable way to add Fuel injection to a car that never had it... but i wouldn't replace the stock ECU with it..... the stock ECU and an SAFC is going to be a MUCH better combo.
01-12-05, 08:22 PM
#19
Lives on the Forum
Originally Posted by Tofuball
I should also add that my car takes a whole lot of cranking to make it start.
It used to start with just the flick of the wrist, but now it doesnt anymore (I have no clue why, it changed a while ago). My GXL also starts almost instantly.
It used to start with just the flick of the wrist, but now it doesnt anymore (I have no clue why, it changed a while ago). My GXL also starts almost instantly.
01-12-05, 10:39 PM
#20
Jesus is the Messiah
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by pengarufoo
Though I am not absolutely 100% on this since I did not study the stock emissions b.s. that much, I do suspect strongly that the stock configuraion injects air @ the exhaust port sleeves under some conditions, and if the acv&cv is not functioning properly maybe under all conditions. Check this one out before going crazy.
Did you install the ACV blockoff plate that comes with the RB header?
Did you install the ACV blockoff plate that comes with the RB header?
It wont be running an ACV for much longer though!
01-12-05, 10:43 PM
#21
Jesus is the Messiah
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by rs_1101
this is going to be a dumb question, but have you tested this on the road? under load? i think that you should at least try wailing on the car a bit to see if maybe its just breaking in.
ive got the same starting problems after changing injectors.. perhaps it has something to do with the stock injector wiring being disturbed. those things are very sensitive id imagine.
ive got the same starting problems after changing injectors.. perhaps it has something to do with the stock injector wiring being disturbed. those things are very sensitive id imagine.
The stock injector wiring was completely cut out and replaced with a single, short wire to the ECU.
Originally Posted by Digi7ech
Did you calibrate it?
On my friends you have to let it calibrate before running.
Maybe you got a faulty sensor?
On my friends you have to let it calibrate before running.
Maybe you got a faulty sensor?
Originally Posted by scathcart
What brand of wideband, and what brand of sensor... for curiosity's sake.
01-12-05, 10:47 PM
#22
Jesus is the Messiah
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by YearsOfDecay
10:0 to one is rich and 20.0:1 is stupid lean...... at crusing speeds, rotary's will start to buck if the A/F goes above 14.5:1 or so. Under a load, they will detonate at this range.. (turbos will detonate under boost if the A/F's get to 13.... less under higher boost... in general... intake charge temp plays in as well.)
Take the wideband out..... give it power, let it warm up and hit it with a propane torch.... it should read right around 14.7:1 (propane burnes at stoich in the air.....
At idle... you should be seeing right around 13.0:1... RX's will not idle much leaner than 13.3:1 or so they will HUNT HUNT HUNT.. much richer than 12.6:1 and the idle will dance around. So if your car is idleing normally, and your WBO2 is showing something out of this range.... its bunked
On an N/A with exhaust and intake mods, the A/F's tend to get really rich at higher RPM's under WOT.. Before i put the SAFC on my old GTU i was seeing A/F's in the 10's and loosing a LOT of power after 5K....
What type of WBO2 is it and how did you calibrate it and where is it mounted.... something is not right with the WBO2
Also.. Are you planning on ditching the ECU injection control and running the Megasquirt to control your injectors????? .
most guys i know use the megasquirt as an additional injector controler for a turbo car..... N/a's usually need fuel taken out
The Megasquirts are a cheap and reliable way to add Fuel injection to a car that never had it... but i wouldn't replace the stock ECU with it..... the stock ECU and an SAFC is going to be a MUCH better combo.
Take the wideband out..... give it power, let it warm up and hit it with a propane torch.... it should read right around 14.7:1 (propane burnes at stoich in the air.....
At idle... you should be seeing right around 13.0:1... RX's will not idle much leaner than 13.3:1 or so they will HUNT HUNT HUNT.. much richer than 12.6:1 and the idle will dance around. So if your car is idleing normally, and your WBO2 is showing something out of this range.... its bunked
On an N/A with exhaust and intake mods, the A/F's tend to get really rich at higher RPM's under WOT.. Before i put the SAFC on my old GTU i was seeing A/F's in the 10's and loosing a LOT of power after 5K....
What type of WBO2 is it and how did you calibrate it and where is it mounted.... something is not right with the WBO2
Also.. Are you planning on ditching the ECU injection control and running the Megasquirt to control your injectors????? .
most guys i know use the megasquirt as an additional injector controler for a turbo car..... N/a's usually need fuel taken out
The Megasquirts are a cheap and reliable way to add Fuel injection to a car that never had it... but i wouldn't replace the stock ECU with it..... the stock ECU and an SAFC is going to be a MUCH better combo.
Thats a great post, full of information that will help me. Thank you very much
Why dont you like the Megasquirt? My stock fuel system is totally out of whack for my needs (fuel and ignition control, removal of TPS and AFM, removal of practically all stock wiring and emissions controls, removal of MOP, ACV .. . etc etc) And the MegaSquirt cost $140 while an SAFC costs more and does much less
Originally Posted by WAYNE88N/A
Check your input from the water thermo sensor at the ECU at idle, cold and hot, and compare with FSM specs. A faulty sensor connection caused this on my car years ago...
01-13-05, 12:36 AM
#23
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Originally Posted by Tofuball
Nah, no air before, the O2 sensor is before the cat, thus before the airpipe.
Before that, is a new RB header with a new gasket on it
Good idea though.
Before that, is a new RB header with a new gasket on it
Good idea though.
Not that this has anything to do with the problem in this thread. The wideband is corrupt, not the car/engine.
01-13-05, 12:43 AM
#24
Jesus is the Messiah
Thread Starter
Interesting.
I didnt know that they did that.
----
Edit: I will have to read up more thoroughly on the ACV.
I didnt know that they did that.
----
Edit: I will have to read up more thoroughly on the ACV.
Last edited by Tofuball; 01-13-05 at 12:51 AM.
01-13-05, 08:27 AM
#25
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Even with the acv functioning and putting air in the exaust ports, the afr will still be approx 14.7 give or take. Let's say I was idling with the airpump/acv intact and working. The afr will SHOW in the 14.7 range. Now if I leave the engine idling and disable the acv by pulling the Relief Solenoid plug off (disables the acv), then the afr WILL drop to the real idle mixture which will be in the 13.0 range, give or take a point.
So I'm almost positive the acv is not causing your untrue readings.
I've got to copy down what YEARSOFDECAY wrote and the next time someone of this forum talks about adding fuel to a non turbo, refer them to what he wrote. I saw exactly what he saw on my 86 non turbo at the time I had a wideband on it.
Sorry about your problems with the wideband. I can't diagnose what is wrong with it. I'm sure your using the TechEdge site at http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/...b/message/3066
Keep on trying to get it to work. It's a useful device.
So I'm almost positive the acv is not causing your untrue readings.
I've got to copy down what YEARSOFDECAY wrote and the next time someone of this forum talks about adding fuel to a non turbo, refer them to what he wrote. I saw exactly what he saw on my 86 non turbo at the time I had a wideband on it.
Sorry about your problems with the wideband. I can't diagnose what is wrong with it. I'm sure your using the TechEdge site at http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/...b/message/3066
Keep on trying to get it to work. It's a useful device.