BklynRX7

Im gonna be runing water/alcohol injection on my turboed n/a and just needed a few things clarified.

1) if mixing water and alcohol what is the best mixture.

2) i have seen alot fo places mention using isopropyl rubbing alcohol rather than grain or methanol, is this safe? effective?

3)My water injection kit came with a vacume activated switch but doesnt specify when it will activate. im gonna replace this with a regulatable boost switch, what would be a good Boost level to start injecting? i was thinking 7psi since ill be passing stock leevls after that.

JesterJess

There are a lot of reccomendations on this subject. You will not want to run grain alcahol, or methanol in a straight form. This can get expensive, and is not safe while you are containing it. I would not even run isopropyl alcohol. Look around at different things. Pick up a bottle of blue windshield wahser fluid (it has some Isopropyl in it.) This contains an ample amount of alcohol to cool things down, you can get them at ANY corner store, and it $1.00 for the expensive stuff PER gallon.

Before I get flamed for this. I have seen a supercharged 900hp viper use this exact solution in the water injection system, while running 3 different Busa's. I would never inject pure alcohol into the intake system, this can be very dangerous. You will want to run a blend, and this has proven itself TIME and TIME again.

Jesse

J-Rat

iTrader: (2)

Really? I have been running my SMC alcohol system on pure denatured (whiich is what steve recommends) for almost 2 years. How is it dangerous?

classicauto

iTrader: (3)

50/50 water/alchohol

thats what ive seen used.......if washer fluid works I guess use that.....

but keep in mind that part of the systems functionality is the cleanign effects of the evapourating water.....wheter washer fluid would provide the same effect when vapoiurized I do not know......

although there is no doubt either would help with heat absorbtion



edit: BTW......pure denatured.........as J-Rat says

RX-Heven

iTrader: (1)

I run 66% methanol and 33% water in my Aquamist system. I'm not sure about denatured alcohol but I know people who run it.

Both water and methanol lower intake and exhaust temps. Water suppresses detonation better than methanol but methanol (130 octane rating) bumps up your octane slightly. Water is not combustable but methanol is so which, if either, contributes to more power at the same boost? Which enables more boost?

There are many other points to base arguments over but I have not seen any definitive results one way or the other.

There are many treads about this subject. however you will need to weed through most of the posts since the majority if them are hearsay bullshit from the peanut gallery. The Aquamist forum has several discussions in more detail on the subject also.
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/phpBB2/index.php

I have had the boost up to 22psi on 91 octane and it spiked once to 29psi once when Steve Kan was tuning it. The wastegate stuck closed :O but the engine held up fine.

You may need colder plugs than the stock 7's and 9's. I had ignition breakup once the boost started getting up to 14 psi due to the amount of water and methanol I am injecting. I was running 9's in both the leading and the trailing at the time. I installed 10's all the way around and that cured the problem.

J-Rat

iTrader: (2)

1. Not in my opinion. You cant effectlively utilize the cooling properties of the Alcohol. Now here is where the penut gallery says "But JAYRAT! Water cools better the ALCOHOL!!", which is true. BUT, alcohol is a fuel and can be added in such quantities that it will begin to remove more heat then water (water doesnt burn, so you can only add so much). If your system doesnt have a big nozzle, and you dont plan on removing any fuel to compensate for the added mix, then water/alcohol is your best bet.

2. You can use Denatured Alcohol, or Methanol, but you have to understand that you have to use MORE Methanol to do the same work as the alcohol. So you cant just swap between the two.

3. My system activates at 7PSI and ramps to full delivery at 15.

JesterJess

If you run pure denatured alcohol. How much is that stuff per gallon? Compare that to washer fluid. Again, I know someone will flame me about this, but I guarnatee it works. Take a close look at the label on washer fluid. It's part alcohol, and mostly water. I don't know that you need 50% alcohol to get the affect of that. I understand the cleansing purpose of the water in the engine, and how it cleans.

I use to race a turbo 2.3 ford, and I used washer fluid to run 23lbs of boost on a stock lower end. I only blew ONE head gasket.... I ran out of washer fluid in the injection system.

Try it out, see if you like it.

I'm not selling anything here, just passing on what I have learned over the years of turbo engines. However, I am a newbie when it come to rotaries.

Jesse

J-Rat

iTrader: (2)

[QUOTE=JesterJess]There are a lot of reccomendations on this subject. You will not want to run grain alcahol, or methanol in a straight form.

[quote]

You run Denatured which is abotu 10 bucks a gallon. One gallon lasts me 2 months.


Most aftermarket systems are quite safe, so I dont know where you are going with that.


I am leaving this alone...


It has? Then why are all the big turbo GN guys running straight alcohol?

RX-Heven

iTrader: (1)

Exhibit "A" from the peanut gallery:
Some cars run only on alcohol and many others inject it (such as J-Rat) unmixed without any problems. The only thing you need to check is that your plumbing, pumps etc. can tolerate it. If stored properly, it's not any more dangerous than your existing gas tank.

Yeah, I'm sure lots of others have seen that video on streetfire.net also....

J-Rat

iTrader: (2)

10 dollars..

which doesnt have NEAR the alcohol content I use. You probably didnt remove any fuel, you just sprayed it on top of the existing mix for some added knock protection.

JesterJess

I don't want to argue here....

However, there is a difference between the big turbo GN guys and an RX7 guy that just wants to turn up his boost a little while maintaing driveability, and not having to worry about blowing up his engine. I didn't say that you couldn't run straight alcohol, but you will never catch me running a BOMB under the hood of my street car. I guess if you have it contained in a safe location, you could run it. BUT, these GN guys are running 30+ lbs of boost on a stroker out 3.8L v-6. They are probably running 18-20 lbs of boost (occasionally) on a street driven rotary. Not an all out race engine, running on race fuel.

Everyone has their opinion here, and I knew this would happen. It's only a matter of time and someone would compare a FULL-OUT race engine to a T2 wanting more boost.

Apples and oranges...

Jesse

JesterJess

That is where I saw it, plus I have used it myself.

I can agree running pure methanol (instead of gasoline) has it's advantages. However, I was under the impression that we were talking about a stand alone alcohol/water injection system, that is used to prevent detonation, by cooling down the intake charge.

Where and I going with that.... Nowhere, these systems can be very safe, and I will be running one on my car in the near future. However, I would never recommend someone handle raw alcohol that has no experience. All it takes is a little spill, and you have a fire that you can not see, and is quite difficult to put out. On the other hand. No matter how hard I've tried, I have never been able to ignite washer fluid.

Jesse

BklynRX7

LMAO, I believe it may work but id be a little iffy about injecting a soapy product into my combustion chamber, wouldnt it clean away the lubricants a bit more than alcohol/water would?

Ill most likey just stick with distilled water/isopropyl since theyre both cheap and readily available. Im still unsure about the mixture.

ALso how often do you guys need to refil your tanks under what conditions and what size do you run. I have a holley kit and the tank is pretty small but i still need to read through ti to see how its injected and over what duration before I decide to look for a bigger one.

Bukwild

"Pick up a bottle of blue windshield wahser fluid (it has some Isopropyl in it.) This contains an ample amount of alcohol to cool things down, you can get them at ANY corner store, and it $1.00 for the expensive stuff PER gallon. "


Yeah I guess you could do this. I will have to look at a bottle to see what the percentage is of water to alcohol in a bottle. It might be a mixture of 95-5 or something small like that but yes I do see your point that its available at any gas station. I will have to check into this more.

Tech_Greek

Mom - "Son what are you doing?
Son - "Nothing ma, just trying to light some washer fluid on fire!"
Mom - "Ohh....ok dinners at 6"

HAHA

JesterJess

There is NO soap in windshild washer fluid (at lease the standard blue stuff.) I'm sure you can pick up some of the super bug remover fluid, that does (I would not run that.) It is usually about 10-15% alcohol. Check the labels, it should say.

I'm not saying this is the best thing to run in all situations, but it can be run, and it works well. If you have a tried and true misture, then stay with it. If you are looking for something different, and are tired of spending all that money on gallons of denatured alcohol, then try this.

Just my .02

Jesse

JesterJess

I've never tried, but it did make a pretty funny visual didn't it.... ha ha ha

J-Rat

iTrader: (2)

LOL, so my TII motor is full race because I spray pure alcohol?

Lets get one thing straight. Alcohol injection systems are COMPLETELY safe. There are MILLIONS of them on the road. I dont know how it compares to a bomb, therefore I feel the need to refute this statement.

Also, windshield washer fluid is perfectly fine for a small spray, in order to provide some knock protection. But its not as good as tuning for alcohol only, or meth only.

And you ARE right, there are lots of opinions, but I have been running alcohol for 2 years so I would consider the source when I discuss it versus what others have "heard".

JesterJess

J-Rat, I agree with you on all points, except the bomb statement. In the right environment, a container full of 100% alcohol WILL ignite violently if you were to mount it in the wrong location, and are involved in a crash.

I would not call your t2 motor a full race engine, but you can understand my analogy. If you can get away with running 50/50, then why spend the money and run 100%.

As a matter of fact, you can spray PURE water into an intake and this will also decrease the intake charge temperature. This would be used ONLY to drop the intake charge temp, not as a 5th injector set-up to increase the amount of fuel injected.

Jesse

BklynRX7

So now when it comes to "tuning" the water setup. Should I just set up the water injection to work how I want it , then tune the fuel down accordingly or should I purposely let it run a little rich in those ranges?

JesterJess

I would not tune any fuel out, unless you are running PURE alcohol. Because, as we all know, water will not burn.

I would let it run a tad rich if you are running that set-up. You have to remember. It takes 160% (approximately) more alcohol than gasoline to have the same air fuel ratio... So, if you are just injecting alcohol to add more fuel, you are really only adding a slight amount, that will affect the AFR.

Jesse

J-Rat

iTrader: (2)

Same thing can be said for a tank of gas!!

Digi7ech

iTrader: (1)

When tuning a rotary I would prefer to know absolutes. Not guesstimates.
Running straight alcohol gives you an absolute. There is nothing to question about ratios. You know what it is.
This allows you to tune out fuel in replacement for alcohol in a fuel map. I'd be a bit scared of doing that with a 50/50. Of course that's in the extreme too and completely up to the person mixing the 50/50.

With store bought washer fluid you would have to search for specific brands that would match your tuning maps.

The water vs alcohol cost is a stupid fight. If you can pay $200+ for an injection kit I doubt a couple extra bucks makes a difference.

Oh and I just thought of another possible thing with water. How clean is it? If it's tap then it's got chlorine and minerals in it which can do their own thing too.

BklynRX7

Thats the exact reason I will be using distilled water and iso-alcohol. I mean if you wont put tap water in your radiator why would you put it in the combustion chamber?

JesterJess

Digi, You are right, IF You are going to replace alocohol for fuel when boosting. However, if you are just adding it to lower intake charge, then you are just looking for the cooling effect.

I also agree, it would behove you to do some research in your area. I am betting that washer fluid made for the UPPER states have more alcohol than fluid made for the lower states. IS THERE A DIFFERENCE??? I don't know.

The water VS Alcohol cost is a stupid fight.... sure, if you have money to throw away. Why would I spend $20 on a gallon of denatured alcohol, when I can buy a gallon of washer fluid for around a buck. That leaves $19 to go in the tank, and spend it on BETTER fuel for the engine.....

IF YOU ARE GETTING A PING, TRY DIFFERENT GAS STATIONS!!! I have a modified ZX-1100 Ninja sportbike. If I don't run BP or Race Track fuel, I get a nasty ping in to gear (low rpms.) I tried tanks of fuel from ALL of the local gas stations, and there is a difference in their blends, and how they run in my bike. BTW, I only run the highest octane (93 in FL) available at each gas station.