Uh oh, this can't be good... no compression.
11-29-07, 07:56 PM
#27
Seafoam might be a better cleaner, but it will in no way assist with rebuilding compression and unflooding the engine.
To the OP: get yourself some new leading sparkplugs and reinstall them after performing the unflood procedure using either ATF or motor oil (preferably a thin version such as 5-30 or 10-30 in this cooler weather).
Compression testing a flooded engine is useless. OF COURSE it is going to show low compression; it is FLOODED!!! The rotary relies on a coating of oil on the housing walls and seals to make a good seal and good compression. When the engine floods this coating is washed away and so compression drops, and the engine will not generate combustion. The coating must be restored by injecting oil/atf...something thick that will cling to surfaces.
Stock plugs foul easily in the presence of gas and oils, both of which you have soaked them in. change them and it will fire right up.
11-29-07, 09:08 PM
#28
My comment was in response to a stuck seal suggesting and using ATF as the remedy. And in that event, SeaFoam Deep Creep spray I've known to work quite well for penetrating and destruction of carbon.
So, as it may be, using ATF for de-flooding may not damage your motor because it isn't in there long enough...but WHY would you use ATF, when you could use regular motor oil...? Hmm...
No hard feelings or anything, but honestly, don't give me a general retaliation for something that was originally more specific.
11-29-07, 09:14 PM
#29
No, I did not read every word of every post in the thread. In a quick scan of the thread again, I don't see any real discussion of using ATF as a means of cleaning or decarbonization or him having a stuck seal, so I dont know where your comment came from. All the discussion agrees that the engine is just flooded, possibly with fouled plugs.
Motor oil is generally thicker than ATF and does not flow/penetrate as well. Since injecting this into your engine requires a small vacuum nipple and a hand oil pump with a small hose, I find that the ATF is easier to pump in and also tends to coat the housing walls better. I guess it's more personal preference than anything, but please don't come on here telling these young guys that dont know any better, that ATF will destroy their engine.
I've taken apart cores that were stored with ATF for years at a time and rotated often, and have noted no unusual coolant or oil control seal characteristics, just for the record. I think the "corrosive/acidic" effect of ATF is grossly overstated on this forum, but then again everyone here is an armchair engine builder, engineer or chemist, so what can you do.
Motor oil is generally thicker than ATF and does not flow/penetrate as well. Since injecting this into your engine requires a small vacuum nipple and a hand oil pump with a small hose, I find that the ATF is easier to pump in and also tends to coat the housing walls better. I guess it's more personal preference than anything, but please don't come on here telling these young guys that dont know any better, that ATF will destroy their engine.
I've taken apart cores that were stored with ATF for years at a time and rotated often, and have noted no unusual coolant or oil control seal characteristics, just for the record. I think the "corrosive/acidic" effect of ATF is grossly overstated on this forum, but then again everyone here is an armchair engine builder, engineer or chemist, so what can you do.
11-29-07, 09:20 PM
#30
You have your opinion.
I have mine.
http://www.rotorwiki.com/index.php/The_ATF_Trick_%28The_Truth%29
For the record, I am considering you for my engine rebuild. However, my opinion of ATF in any motor is not just of this forum's postage.
I have mine.
http://www.rotorwiki.com/index.php/The_ATF_Trick_%28The_Truth%29
For the record, I am considering you for my engine rebuild. However, my opinion of ATF in any motor is not just of this forum's postage.
11-29-07, 09:47 PM
#31
Compression testing a flooded engine is useless. OF COURSE it is going to show low compression; it is FLOODED!!! The rotary relies on a coating of oil on the housing walls and seals to make a good seal and good compression. When the engine floods this coating is washed away and so compression drops, and the engine will not generate combustion. The coating must be restored by injecting oil/atf...something thick that will cling to surfaces.
You could always comp test after you squirt some oil in there too.
11-29-07, 09:51 PM
#32
Rotaries can be flooded to the extent that they freespin and generate almost zero compression (on a gauge or in reality). I've had it happen a few times before...not just your standard "hmm, it won't start, just turns, wonder why?" type flooding. This type of flooding actually sounds like the starter is just freespinning, not even turning the engine.
11-29-07, 09:52 PM
#33
Rotaries can be flooded to the extent that they freespin and generate almost zero compression (on a gauge or in reality). I've had it happen a few times before...not just your standard "hmm, it won't start, just turns, wonder why?" type flooding. This type of flooding actually sounds like the starter is just freespinning, not even turning the engine.
This sounds unintelligent, but could the starter gear have stripped on him?
11-29-07, 10:06 PM
#36
You may be an experienced and very well respected engine builder, but nobody is perfect.
Regardless, your comment about ATF when used to de-flood is harmless...fine. A minute and a half inside the motor, I doubt it'll cause any damage.
However, you retaliated to my comment that I wrote as a response to ATF being used to de-stick a motor locked up by carbon deposits. ATF + Time to eat = Not so great. Sure, it'll dissolve the carbon and free up things...but it's effect on seals that were NOT designed to withstand ATF properties isn't good.
I had a carbon-locked motor. Which pretty much killed it right then and there. But, I figured "What the hell" and performed the 'ATF trick' (Such a charming name). In about two days, my motor was free...and then the damage done by the carbon jamming things up took out the seals on that rotor after I had started it and it was running for a few seconds. Loud, awful, chilling noise.
I'm sure the ATF didn't help things. It burned oil with a cloud big enough to cause panic from the neighbors.
Searching on here, coupled with that RotorWiki post (That I only found recently) led me to believe that I would've been better off using something other than automatic transmission fluid. 'The seal eater'.
You can't expect everyone to accept your opinion/word as pure, unquestionable fact. That's what I hate about this forum. So many people who are quite intelligent, but their opinions differ from the other smart people on the forum and all of you think you're purely god-like and know all the facts. It just doesn't work that way.
All of this aside, some day, you may see my spare core coming your way.
Cheers
11-29-07, 10:23 PM
#38
Perhaps, on 2 seperate computers, and I even tried copy and paste. I think the spaces in the link are making it invalid. 
The only seals in the engine that are not metal are the coolant orings and oil control inserts. Obviously ATF has no ill effect on metal parts, including all the rotor seals.
Yeah, regardless of what you use for the "trick" you will have a lot of smoke, mmo, atf, motor oil, whatever. Even if you use water (which I recommend on my website, btw) you still have a thick cloud of steam.
Unless you had a coolant seal or an oil control oring cause an issue, your failure was not related to the ATF. It was related to the stuck seals which you forced to move again and most likely they simply broke due to the stress. This happens to engines that have been let to sit for a while and are then put back into service, often the seals break within a few days of startup. This is of course just my educated theory based on this exact experience.
You would have been better off to take it apart, keep careful track of where each seal was, clean it all up, buy 120 bucks worth of new coolant seals and put it back together, if you really had to have it running again. By forcing it to run you caused more than 120 bucks in damage. 
By the same token, it is a pet peeve of mine that any random person with any level of mechanical experience and knowledge (or lack thereof) can come on this forum and post their opinion as fact. I'm not saying that you do or don't know what you're talking about, but the fact remains that anyone can come on the internet and talk like they know all about this or that, when they are just regurgitating information posted elsewhere that may be partially or entirely inaccurate.
No, I am not perfect, nor do I know everything. But I think I have seen hundreds of rx7s and built hundreds of engines (about 45 per year since 2002) and among the posters in this section of the forum I dont think there are many who have seen the spectrum of problems, failures, and resolutions that I have, so if not me, who else should you believe?
It's no different than those holiday inn commercials. Someone acts like they know about a particular subject in the midst of onlookers, someone else asks if they are a doctor/trainer/whatever, the person says "no, but I did stay at a holiday inn last night".
So tell us...where did you sleep last night?
However, you retaliated to my comment that I wrote as a response to ATF being used to de-stick a motor locked up by carbon deposits. ATF + Time to eat = Not so great. Sure, it'll dissolve the carbon and free up things...but it's effect on seals that were NOT designed to withstand ATF properties isn't good.
I had a carbon-locked motor. Which pretty much killed it right then and there. But, I figured "What the hell" and performed the 'ATF trick' (Such a charming name). In about two days, my motor was free...and then the damage done by the carbon jamming things up took out the seals on that rotor after I had started it and it was running for a few seconds. Loud, awful, chilling noise.
I'm sure the ATF didn't help things. It burned oil with a cloud big enough to cause panic from the neighbors.
I'm sure the ATF didn't help things. It burned oil with a cloud big enough to cause panic from the neighbors.
Unless you had a coolant seal or an oil control oring cause an issue, your failure was not related to the ATF. It was related to the stuck seals which you forced to move again and most likely they simply broke due to the stress. This happens to engines that have been let to sit for a while and are then put back into service, often the seals break within a few days of startup. This is of course just my educated theory based on this exact experience.
Searching on here, coupled with that RotorWiki post (That I only found recently) led me to believe that I would've been better off using something other than automatic transmission fluid. 'The seal eater'.
You can't expect everyone to accept your opinion/word as pure, unquestionable fact. That's what I hate about this forum. So many people who are quite intelligent, but their opinions differ from the other smart people on the forum and all of you think you're purely god-like and know all the facts. It just doesn't work that way.
Cheers
Cheers
No, I am not perfect, nor do I know everything. But I think I have seen hundreds of rx7s and built hundreds of engines (about 45 per year since 2002) and among the posters in this section of the forum I dont think there are many who have seen the spectrum of problems, failures, and resolutions that I have, so if not me, who else should you believe?
It's no different than those holiday inn commercials. Someone acts like they know about a particular subject in the midst of onlookers, someone else asks if they are a doctor/trainer/whatever, the person says "no, but I did stay at a holiday inn last night".
So tell us...where did you sleep last night?
11-29-07, 10:33 PM
#39
Perhaps, on 2 seperate computers, and I even tried copy and paste. I think the spaces in the link are making it invalid.
The only seals in the engine that are not metal are the coolant orings and oil control inserts. Obviously ATF has no ill effect on metal parts, including all the rotor seals.
Yeah, regardless of what you use for the "trick" you will have a lot of smoke, mmo, atf, motor oil, whatever. Even if you use water (which I recommend on my website, btw) you still have a thick cloud of steam.
Unless you had a coolant seal or an oil control oring cause an issue, your failure was not related to the ATF. It was related to the stuck seals which you forced to move again and most likely they simply broke due to the stress. This happens to engines that have been let to sit for a while and are then put back into service, often the seals break within a few days of startup. This is of course just my educated theory based on this exact experience.
You would have been better off to take it apart, keep careful track of where each seal was, clean it all up, buy 120 bucks worth of new coolant seals and put it back together, if you really had to have it running again. By forcing it to run you caused more than 120 bucks in damage.
By the same token, it is a pet peeve of mine that any random person with any level of mechanical experience and knowledge (or lack thereof) can come on this forum and post their opinion as fact. I'm not saying that you do or don't know what you're talking about, but the fact remains that anyone can come on the internet and talk like they know all about this or that, when they are just regurgitating information posted elsewhere that may be partially or entirely inaccurate.
No, I am not perfect, nor do I know everything. But I think I have seen hundreds of rx7s and built hundreds of engines (about 45 per year since 2002) and among the posters in this section of the forum I dont think there are many who have seen the spectrum of problems, failures, and resolutions that I have, so if not me, who else should you believe?
It's no different than those holiday inn commercials. Someone acts like they know about a particular subject in the midst of onlookers, someone else asks if they are a doctor/trainer/whatever, the person says "no, but I did stay at a holiday inn last night".
So tell us...where did you sleep last night?
The only seals in the engine that are not metal are the coolant orings and oil control inserts. Obviously ATF has no ill effect on metal parts, including all the rotor seals.
Yeah, regardless of what you use for the "trick" you will have a lot of smoke, mmo, atf, motor oil, whatever. Even if you use water (which I recommend on my website, btw) you still have a thick cloud of steam.
Unless you had a coolant seal or an oil control oring cause an issue, your failure was not related to the ATF. It was related to the stuck seals which you forced to move again and most likely they simply broke due to the stress. This happens to engines that have been let to sit for a while and are then put back into service, often the seals break within a few days of startup. This is of course just my educated theory based on this exact experience.
You would have been better off to take it apart, keep careful track of where each seal was, clean it all up, buy 120 bucks worth of new coolant seals and put it back together, if you really had to have it running again. By forcing it to run you caused more than 120 bucks in damage.
By the same token, it is a pet peeve of mine that any random person with any level of mechanical experience and knowledge (or lack thereof) can come on this forum and post their opinion as fact. I'm not saying that you do or don't know what you're talking about, but the fact remains that anyone can come on the internet and talk like they know all about this or that, when they are just regurgitating information posted elsewhere that may be partially or entirely inaccurate.
No, I am not perfect, nor do I know everything. But I think I have seen hundreds of rx7s and built hundreds of engines (about 45 per year since 2002) and among the posters in this section of the forum I dont think there are many who have seen the spectrum of problems, failures, and resolutions that I have, so if not me, who else should you believe?
It's no different than those holiday inn commercials. Someone acts like they know about a particular subject in the midst of onlookers, someone else asks if they are a doctor/trainer/whatever, the person says "no, but I did stay at a holiday inn last night".
So tell us...where did you sleep last night?
11-29-07, 10:41 PM
#40
your wish is my command.
Engine stored with ATF after rear apex seals blew (to preserve front rotor/housing/other parts while it sat waiting for rebuild funds):
See how freely the seals in the good rotor fall/push out of their grooves? See how there is not a lot of carbon on the rotor? This was an original 100k+ mile s4 NA...
They don't always come out looking like that. Most have more carbon, and you usually have to pull the seals out with your fingers or a small pick/screwdriver.
here's an engine I took apart a few months ago after sitting for about a year. It was carbon locked afterwards. Notice how the seals all tend to be sticking inside the rotor and not falling/pushing out. This motor was actually believed to be a fairly low mile jspec.
This is the best example of each I could come up with in a few minutes time.
Engine stored with ATF after rear apex seals blew (to preserve front rotor/housing/other parts while it sat waiting for rebuild funds):
See how freely the seals in the good rotor fall/push out of their grooves? See how there is not a lot of carbon on the rotor? This was an original 100k+ mile s4 NA...
They don't always come out looking like that. Most have more carbon, and you usually have to pull the seals out with your fingers or a small pick/screwdriver.
here's an engine I took apart a few months ago after sitting for about a year. It was carbon locked afterwards. Notice how the seals all tend to be sticking inside the rotor and not falling/pushing out. This motor was actually believed to be a fairly low mile jspec.
This is the best example of each I could come up with in a few minutes time.
Last edited by RotaryResurrection; 11-29-07 at 10:49 PM.
11-29-07, 10:48 PM
#42
Edited my last post.
Oil control rings on any 50k+ mile engine are going to be fairly flat, it is just the way they are. I did not notice anything different about them...in fact I just finished prying them out of the metal carrier rings and they felt just like any other of the 100's I've pulled out.
Oil control rings on any 50k+ mile engine are going to be fairly flat, it is just the way they are. I did not notice anything different about them...in fact I just finished prying them out of the metal carrier rings and they felt just like any other of the 100's I've pulled out.
11-29-07, 11:37 PM
#46
Well you did something that many other 'intelligent' people don't. You provided evidence to support your opinion over mine. When I say that my opinion is partially altered, I mean that I still am lacking the proof that ATF ISN'T corrosive to the rubber seals of the motor in any respect.
I have a rubber suckey-thing I used to inject ATF into my locked motor. It still had a coating of ATF in it when I put it on the shelf eight months ago. I recently used it to suck out some brake fluid from my reservoir. I rinsed it out, but it was VERY stiff and dried out and the liquid that came out (prior to filling it with water) was gritty and thicker than ATF (but still reddish pink).
11-29-07, 11:47 PM
#47
Well sure, some cheap little wal mart thing is not going to fare well against a chemical agent. BUt that's totally different from engine internals which are manufactured to come in contact with chemicals such as antifreeze, gasoline, and motor oil.
Take coolant seals for example. If you take an engine and flood it with gas, and let it sit for a few weeks before you unflood it (this happens a lot, and I have started many a car that was severely flooded for months or years), that gas does not destroy the coolant seals, does it?
But then if you take coolant seals OUT OF THE ENGINE and sit them in a bottle of gas for a week, they will swell up and break apart. Same for mineral spirits, acetone, diesel, etc.
The difference is, that the RUBBER SEALS ARE NOT EXPOSED WITHIN THE ENGINE COMBUSTION CHAMBER. So if the chemical can't get TO them, how is it supposed to DAMAGE them?
This is the flaw with aaron's (and others) experiment of putting various seals in a cup of ATF and letting it sit to check what happens.
Take coolant seals for example. If you take an engine and flood it with gas, and let it sit for a few weeks before you unflood it (this happens a lot, and I have started many a car that was severely flooded for months or years), that gas does not destroy the coolant seals, does it?
But then if you take coolant seals OUT OF THE ENGINE and sit them in a bottle of gas for a week, they will swell up and break apart. Same for mineral spirits, acetone, diesel, etc.
The difference is, that the RUBBER SEALS ARE NOT EXPOSED WITHIN THE ENGINE COMBUSTION CHAMBER. So if the chemical can't get TO them, how is it supposed to DAMAGE them?
This is the flaw with aaron's (and others) experiment of putting various seals in a cup of ATF and letting it sit to check what happens.
11-29-07, 11:50 PM
#48
Well sure, some cheap little wal mart thing is not going to fare well against a chemical agent. BUt that's totally different from engine internals which are manufactured to come in contact with chemicals such as antifreeze, gasoline, and motor oil.
Take coolant seals for example. If you take an engine and flood it with gas, and let it sit for a few weeks before you unflood it (this happens a lot, and I have started many a car that was severely flooded for months or years), that gas does not destroy the coolant seals, does it?
But then if you take coolant seals OUT OF THE ENGINE and sit them in a bottle of gas for a week, they will swell up and break apart. Same for mineral spirits, acetone, diesel, etc.
The difference is, that the RUBBER SEALS ARE NOT EXPOSED WITHIN THE ENGINE COMBUSTION CHAMBER. So if the chemical can't get TO them, how is it supposed to DAMAGE them?
This is the flaw with aaron's (and others) experiment of putting various seals in a cup of ATF and letting it sit to check what happens.
Take coolant seals for example. If you take an engine and flood it with gas, and let it sit for a few weeks before you unflood it (this happens a lot, and I have started many a car that was severely flooded for months or years), that gas does not destroy the coolant seals, does it?
But then if you take coolant seals OUT OF THE ENGINE and sit them in a bottle of gas for a week, they will swell up and break apart. Same for mineral spirits, acetone, diesel, etc.
The difference is, that the RUBBER SEALS ARE NOT EXPOSED WITHIN THE ENGINE COMBUSTION CHAMBER. So if the chemical can't get TO them, how is it supposed to DAMAGE them?
This is the flaw with aaron's (and others) experiment of putting various seals in a cup of ATF and letting it sit to check what happens.
11-30-07, 12:34 AM
#49
Haha, well that's fair I guess. It doesnt much matter to me whether I alter your opinion or not, but I just want to get the facts out there rather than letting misinformation spread as it wishes. Besides, I am doing this to help you all, not myself (obviously).
