Too darty or normal behavior for manual rack?
05-25-20, 11:50 PM
#1
Full Member
Thread Starter
Too darty or normal behavior for manual rack?
I'll start with car details and history. 87 NA Manual Rack 4 lug. When I first bought the car, the tires would vibrate when going about 75mph. Would feel scary and bounce. I noticed that I could push on the tires and hear a clank clank clank so I realized the hub was loose so I tightened those up until there was no more clank or wobble. This helped a lot! No more bounce but very darty still. When going fast, the car would constantly like to favor a side and felt I was always correcting it. Also very scary when in high speed next to other cars.
My tires were bad and was waiting on new wheels/tires so I got some temp used tires which were all mismatched. I thought this may be part of the issue (none were directional). I then thought maybe it's the inner/outer tire rod so I bought those and replaced all but one inner tie rod (couldn't get the pin out to remove it), better? Still darty. I should also mention I got some MaxSpeeding coil overs so those could potentially be an issue too? Finally I got the old tires aligned and balanced, they said they did very minor adjustments, they were straight as a whistle they said. Better, but still darty at high speed.
Now I got new wheels/tires (16x8), balanced, the works. Almost all good... the car still seems to pull slightly to one side at times, not all the time, and still darty at higher speeds.
My thoughts are this: 1. I bent the steering rack when I tried to force the inner tie rod out with the pin still in it? 2. The coil overs are creating memory-steer? 3. Or maybe this is completely normal for the manual rack and I'm over thinking it.
There's no steering wheel play. Would love to hear your thoughts.
My tires were bad and was waiting on new wheels/tires so I got some temp used tires which were all mismatched. I thought this may be part of the issue (none were directional). I then thought maybe it's the inner/outer tire rod so I bought those and replaced all but one inner tie rod (couldn't get the pin out to remove it), better? Still darty. I should also mention I got some MaxSpeeding coil overs so those could potentially be an issue too? Finally I got the old tires aligned and balanced, they said they did very minor adjustments, they were straight as a whistle they said. Better, but still darty at high speed.
Now I got new wheels/tires (16x8), balanced, the works. Almost all good... the car still seems to pull slightly to one side at times, not all the time, and still darty at higher speeds.
My thoughts are this: 1. I bent the steering rack when I tried to force the inner tie rod out with the pin still in it? 2. The coil overs are creating memory-steer? 3. Or maybe this is completely normal for the manual rack and I'm over thinking it.
There's no steering wheel play. Would love to hear your thoughts.
05-26-20, 03:11 AM
#3
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Thread Starter
EDIT: I just went out to take a quick peek since you peaked my interest (it's 2am) and I did a quick tighten test on a few quick bolts I could reach from the 3 bolts you mentioned and at a glance they seem super tight. The one that did surprise me (and this might be the issue?) I went to tighten the lateral link bolt closest to the wheel and it had some rotation, I was like, okay, this is what's loose! So I went to tighten it and it just spins and spins and spins, I just read somewhere on a different post just now that if it's not tightening down I may need a new set of lateral links? I'll do some more research on this now but if you have any input on this, I'd love to hear it. I will check everything out tomorrow.
Thanks
Last edited by Romthirty; 05-26-20 at 04:01 AM.
05-26-20, 08:49 AM
#4
Rotary Enthusiast
Have you replaced your ball joints and front suspension bushings? Back in Aug 2009, I replaced my S5 LCA's with S4 LCA's due to them having replaceable ball joints. It was sometime in 2018, I noticed that my car began to handle differently. It would track seams in the road when crossing them and the steering wheel sometimes was slightly either to left or right of center to go straight. The boots on the ball joints were weather worn so at about $50 each I decided to replace them with Moog ball joints. Very easy job! Well, that solved my vague steering problem.
Also, if your car still has the DTSS or rear steer bushings, than get rid of them. You can buy rear steer eliminator bushings (https://www.mazdatrix.com/rear-steer...s-faq-install/) from either Mazdatrix or Racing Beat to name a few. On my '90 GXL, I installed the rear steer eliminator bushings in Dec 2001 at about 207k miles. The car would seem to wander while driving on long straight highways and would always require steering inputs to correct for this wandering. I replaced these bushings and that solved my problem.
The rear lateral links might be part of the problem too. Those bolts should be tight. Try pulling down on the link while tightening the bolt. Mazda still sells those links (p/n FB01-28-200A) but they're very much overpriced ranging from about $150-$200 each. You can get aftermarket adjustable links cheaper (https://store.partsshopmax.com/shop/FC/MultilinkAngle/) costing about $200 for the pair. Max also sell all aluminum rear steer eliminators. I last replaced my lateral links in April 2003. Several months ago, I noticed that the dust boots on my lateral links were severely weather worn probably causing damage to the swivel joints. So, I'm looking at the Max adjustable links as possible replacements. Not sure how well they would holdup for year-around daily driver on the east coast.
Also, if your car still has the DTSS or rear steer bushings, than get rid of them. You can buy rear steer eliminator bushings (https://www.mazdatrix.com/rear-steer...s-faq-install/) from either Mazdatrix or Racing Beat to name a few. On my '90 GXL, I installed the rear steer eliminator bushings in Dec 2001 at about 207k miles. The car would seem to wander while driving on long straight highways and would always require steering inputs to correct for this wandering. I replaced these bushings and that solved my problem.
The rear lateral links might be part of the problem too. Those bolts should be tight. Try pulling down on the link while tightening the bolt. Mazda still sells those links (p/n FB01-28-200A) but they're very much overpriced ranging from about $150-$200 each. You can get aftermarket adjustable links cheaper (https://store.partsshopmax.com/shop/FC/MultilinkAngle/) costing about $200 for the pair. Max also sell all aluminum rear steer eliminators. I last replaced my lateral links in April 2003. Several months ago, I noticed that the dust boots on my lateral links were severely weather worn probably causing damage to the swivel joints. So, I'm looking at the Max adjustable links as possible replacements. Not sure how well they would holdup for year-around daily driver on the east coast.
05-26-20, 11:28 AM
#5
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Thread Starter
I haven't replaced my ball joints and or any front suspension bushings. I'll look into that. I'm limited on time when it comes to working on my car and also don't have a large array of tools so hopefully these are things I can replace at home. I get nervous pulling off a bunch of parts just to reach something, with a car this old, I worry about something breaking when trying to fix something else, haha.
Yes, it still has it and I've always thought this may be a big influence on why it feels that way but the uninstall and install of the bushings makes me not want to dive into that at this moment. I don't have a press and I know I can make toold at home to remove them but it's a little beyond me and I'm leaving that for a later replacement until I update all the easier parts first.
Yeah, I was just reading that some people have luck with an impact gun to get it to tighten, some put pry bar between the lateral link to create pressure so that they can tighten it down. There was even one thing I read that someone used a grinder to cut a notch into the bottom of the bolt to be able to get at it with a screw driver which I thought was pretty clever but I personally wouldn't want to grind down any part of the suspension as it may compromise the integrity. I did take a look at the rubber boot on the lateral links and they aren't popped, they are all still rubbery. I'm happy to hear that tightening them down will potentially help my issue, but if not, at least I now have a few other things to look at.
Yeah, I was just reading that some people have luck with an impact gun to get it to tighten, some put pry bar between the lateral link to create pressure so that they can tighten it down. There was even one thing I read that someone used a grinder to cut a notch into the bottom of the bolt to be able to get at it with a screw driver which I thought was pretty clever but I personally wouldn't want to grind down any part of the suspension as it may compromise the integrity. I did take a look at the rubber boot on the lateral links and they aren't popped, they are all still rubbery. I'm happy to hear that tightening them down will potentially help my issue, but if not, at least I now have a few other things to look at.
05-26-20, 11:58 AM
#6
Ive got a 14:1 Power to Manual converted rack and it does get very twitchy at high speeds. Yours would be a 20:1 ratio though so probably not as bad. Plus mine doesn't return to center very well...
05-26-20, 12:32 PM
#7
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Thread Starter
Yeah, I'm just not sure if its normal steering-sensitivity or another issue. I bet it's the latter. Steering sensitivity would just be very responsive, but what it feels like is over responsive. Every time I'm going to drove over a groove on the road or change lanes, I have to prepare to correct it. It's even noticeable when I change gears. Not so bad when changing gears, but I still feel it. I feel like when I change gears and you're driving behind me, you'd see me sway a little bit. Again, it's very minimal when it does this on gear change, but I feel it.
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05-26-20, 12:33 PM
#8
Rotary Enthusiast
I haven't replaced my ball joints and or any front suspension bushings. I'll look into that. I'm limited on time when it comes to working on my car and also don't have a large array of tools so hopefully these are things I can replace at home. I get nervous pulling off a bunch of parts just to reach something, with a car this old, I worry about something breaking when trying to fix something else, haha.
Yes, it still has it and I've always thought this may be a big influence on why it feels that way but the uninstall and install of the bushings makes me not want to dive into that at this moment. I don't have a press and I know I can make toold at home to remove them but it's a little beyond me and I'm leaving that for a later replacement until I update all the easier parts first.
Yeah, I was just reading that some people have luck with an impact gun to get it to tighten, some put pry bar between the lateral link to create pressure so that they can tighten it down. There was even one thing I read that someone used a grinder to cut a notch into the bottom of the bolt to be able to get at it with a screw driver which I thought was pretty clever but I personally wouldn't want to grind down any part of the suspension as it may compromise the integrity. I did take a look at the rubber boot on the lateral links and they aren't popped, they are all still rubbery. I'm happy to hear that tightening them down will potentially help my issue, but if not, at least I now have a few other things to look at.
Yes, it still has it and I've always thought this may be a big influence on why it feels that way but the uninstall and install of the bushings makes me not want to dive into that at this moment. I don't have a press and I know I can make toold at home to remove them but it's a little beyond me and I'm leaving that for a later replacement until I update all the easier parts first.
Yeah, I was just reading that some people have luck with an impact gun to get it to tighten, some put pry bar between the lateral link to create pressure so that they can tighten it down. There was even one thing I read that someone used a grinder to cut a notch into the bottom of the bolt to be able to get at it with a screw driver which I thought was pretty clever but I personally wouldn't want to grind down any part of the suspension as it may compromise the integrity. I did take a look at the rubber boot on the lateral links and they aren't popped, they are all still rubbery. I'm happy to hear that tightening them down will potentially help my issue, but if not, at least I now have a few other things to look at.
You will need a press to replace the LCA bushings (at least, it makes the job a lot easier) and to remove the DTSS bushings.
Yeah, try the pry bar method. You need put pressure on that ball joint to prevent it from spinning.
05-26-20, 12:56 PM
#9
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Thread Starter
Ball joints are regular wear items. The Mazda ball joints that I installed, when I swapped in the S4 LCA's, lasted me almost 79k miles. I don't know how miles you have on yours, but they are really simply to replace. I removed mine without taking off either the rotor or calipers. You don't even need to take off the LCA.
05-26-20, 02:33 PM
#12
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Thread Starter
Nice Tip! I'll give that a shot. What I had in mind to try was to put a big wrench between the lateral link and put some upward pressure with a car jack (very little pressure) so that I can tighten the nut. I wouldn't want to put too much pressure as to bend the rod or even have it forcefully slip off and hit me so I'm not too sold on my own idea but it's what I thought of trying. I think I like your slap method though, I'll give that a shot. I assume if the slap method works and it gets enough bite, it will eventually grab on tight and I'll be able to tighten it down normally without having to slap chop it?
05-26-20, 02:37 PM
#13
Rotary Enthusiast
My rx7 has ~220k miles on the Chassis and I don't have record that the previous owner ever replaced those and he kept very good records for me so I'm sure they are 30 year old ball joints. I'm looking for the part right now and found this moog ball joint that is out of stock: https://www.moog-suspension-parts.com/moog-k9427 Is this the one you said you replaced yours with? Am I looking at the right thing? Looks to be about $250 each? Makes me think I'm looking at the wrong thing considering you mentioned you paid about $50 each. I'll do some more searching right now for other brands of it.
05-26-20, 02:49 PM
#14
Rotary Enthusiast
Those DTSS bushing are crap! What they consist of is an outer steel cylinder and an inner steel cylinder that bonded together by rubber on the top, bottom, and left and right sides. So, you've got 4 gaps in the rubber between the inner and outer steel cylinders. Since it's not a completely solid rubber bond, it has some compliance when it is twisted. Well, that rubber deteriorates over time and they start go to hell. The average lifespan of rubber is about 5-10 years depending on the environment that it's exposed to.
05-26-20, 02:58 PM
#15
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Thread Starter
Yes, I replaced mine exactly two years ago to the day. Actually, I bought them at Rockauto in March 2016 and paid $51.86 each. I read good reviews about Moog and they are grease-able. The Moog p/n is K9427. Looks like they are much more expensive today. Rockauto lists them for $129.79 each. That's unbelievable! Talk about inflation, that's a 250% price increase in a little over 4-years! At those prices, I might just opt for an original Mazda part next time.
Are there any tells that show that the part is bad? any way of testing it? I haven't gone to look at the car today yet but just want to know what to look for to see if it's truly bad or not. I'll end up replacing them anyway but just really want to know.
05-26-20, 03:49 PM
#16
Rotary Enthusiast
There are other brands I've found that are in the $50 range https://www.energysuspensionparts.co...rnley-101-3986 I'm not sure what brands would be better than others but considering I see some in the $30 range, the $50 ones should be a little better than those I would assume.
Are there any tells that show that the part is bad? any way of testing it? I haven't gone to look at the car today yet but just want to know what to look for to see if it's truly bad or not. I'll end up replacing them anyway but just really want to know.
Are there any tells that show that the part is bad? any way of testing it? I haven't gone to look at the car today yet but just want to know what to look for to see if it's truly bad or not. I'll end up replacing them anyway but just really want to know.
05-26-20, 05:00 PM
#17
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Thread Starter
Oh yeah, I'm at the car now and there's at LEAST 1mm of movement on the lateral link when I push the wheel in and out. Nothing up and down from what I see. Going to try to tighten it down to if possible. But looks like that may be my next purchase.
05-26-20, 05:25 PM
#18
Rotary Enthusiast
Well, that's not good! Do the links themselves exhibit looseness if you grab them and try to jerk them back and forth or up and down?
05-26-20, 05:39 PM
#19
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Thread Starter
So to fix/replace. I may wait a little bit before I order them because I have to let my wife cool down from the wheels and tires purchase I recently did, so I'll be trying to tighten it until then. I did try to pry it and tighten it down with no luck, I tried the slap method, no luck, I even went super sonic on it with the socket wrench and it just wont tighten down. I then dropped it on the floor and squeezed my body under there hoping that the weight of the car would help hold it down, but no luck there either. I'll have to wait until the weekend to ask my brother in law to borrow his impact gun.
If anyone has any other suggestions, tips, tricks to getting that tightened down, I'd love to hear it. Until then, I'll be doing some research while I wait on the weekend.
Thanks again for immediately pointing me in the right direction!
05-26-20, 05:47 PM
#20
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Thread Starter
I guess one quick question while in the topic. Are they as easy to replace as it seems? 2 bolts out and in? Or do I have to remove some components / its a pain in the *** to remove or install or something that isn't obvious? I will look at the manual when it comes down to install, but thought I'd ask for a quick thought.
05-26-20, 06:44 PM
#21
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Thread Starter
I GOT IT!!!
https://imgur.com/gallery/vD11gKh
So as I figured that part is going to get replaced, I didn't mind if I messed up the threading on the bolt if it came to it, so I used my caveman brain and came up with that! Just took a couple of turns before it bit and then I was able to keep turning it without the vise grip and tightened it down to the max! All I need is a test drive now! Will update soon.
https://imgur.com/gallery/vD11gKh
So as I figured that part is going to get replaced, I didn't mind if I messed up the threading on the bolt if it came to it, so I used my caveman brain and came up with that! Just took a couple of turns before it bit and then I was able to keep turning it without the vise grip and tightened it down to the max! All I need is a test drive now! Will update soon.
05-26-20, 07:30 PM
#22
Rotary Enthusiast
I guess one quick question while in the topic. Are they as easy to replace as it seems? 2 bolts out and in? Or do I have to remove some components / its a pain in the *** to remove or install or something that isn't obvious? I will look at the manual when it comes down to install, but thought I'd ask for a quick thought.
I did notice one for sale at a reasonable price on Ebay (https://www.ebay.com/itm/86-91-Mazda...4383.l4275.c10)
05-26-20, 07:57 PM
#23
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Update after the test drive...
Wow... Is this the same car?? It now feels like it should feel! I can confidently drive with one hand again. She holds her line beautifully and I don't feel like I'm constantly keeping her on a leash. The first high speed shift I did, I over corrected because of my muscle memory and it swayed a little, but the next shift I just shift without any wheel input and it stayed straight! This was the issue I've been having all along! It's amazing what that one loose nut was causing. It feels so smooth now!!! man. Thanks to everyone here who helped me point out the potential problems right away!
Does this mean I'm all done and problem fixed? or would you say I should still replace them? The rubber boot is still in tact, no tear, and actually when I wiped away the gunk, the entire part looks new. I bet it was replaced and I just missed it in the 100's of receipts I got from previous owner few years ago. I feel like it doesn't need to be replaced anymore at this point.
Wow... Is this the same car?? It now feels like it should feel! I can confidently drive with one hand again. She holds her line beautifully and I don't feel like I'm constantly keeping her on a leash. The first high speed shift I did, I over corrected because of my muscle memory and it swayed a little, but the next shift I just shift without any wheel input and it stayed straight! This was the issue I've been having all along! It's amazing what that one loose nut was causing. It feels so smooth now!!! man. Thanks to everyone here who helped me point out the potential problems right away!
Does this mean I'm all done and problem fixed? or would you say I should still replace them? The rubber boot is still in tact, no tear, and actually when I wiped away the gunk, the entire part looks new. I bet it was replaced and I just missed it in the 100's of receipts I got from previous owner few years ago. I feel like it doesn't need to be replaced anymore at this point.
05-26-20, 08:12 PM
#24
Originally Posted by Hot_Dog
Yes, I replaced mine exactly two years ago to the day. Actually, I bought them at Rockauto in March 2016 and paid $51.86 each. I read good reviews about Moog and they are grease-able. The Moog p/n is K9427. Looks like they are much more expensive today. Rockauto lists them for $129.79 each. That's unbelievable! Talk about inflation, that's a 250% price increase in a little over 4-years! At those prices, I might just opt for an original Mazda part next time.
05-26-20, 09:34 PM
#25
Rotary Enthusiast