Time for a rebuild, engine parts help.
10-19-13, 04:18 PM
#1
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Time for a rebuild, engine parts help.
Okay, so I've got a spare s5 auto keg, I'm pretty sure anyways. Pulled it out of a junkyard a while back and it's just been sitting on the flexplate since. I really only grabbed it because I want the 9.7 rotors mainly. Well, it's been long enough and I want to build up a spare engine to have so whenever I get enough free time I can just swap it in along with a TII trans.
I've searched for a couple weeks now trying to find a thread I once stumbled onto that had a list of which parts were the best from which series engine, but it's been to no avail so far and I'm getting tired to waiting to build this engine. So, does anybody know of a list or know personally which parts are best? I know FD corner seals are good and s5/s6 housings, but what else?
I'm probably going to keep it N/A for now but may eventually enter the turbo world for the first time, so please keep that in mind. I've got my eye on a turbo from a friend right now, for next to nothing, but don't know what specs I should be looking for. Also, if I do go turbo, would my RB streetable exhaust setup work or would I need to look into something else?
And yes, I know turbo and 9.7 rotors usually isn't a good thing, but I've got great access to E85 locally and I know that can help prevent pre-ignition and/or detonation.
I've searched for a couple weeks now trying to find a thread I once stumbled onto that had a list of which parts were the best from which series engine, but it's been to no avail so far and I'm getting tired to waiting to build this engine. So, does anybody know of a list or know personally which parts are best? I know FD corner seals are good and s5/s6 housings, but what else?
I'm probably going to keep it N/A for now but may eventually enter the turbo world for the first time, so please keep that in mind. I've got my eye on a turbo from a friend right now, for next to nothing, but don't know what specs I should be looking for. Also, if I do go turbo, would my RB streetable exhaust setup work or would I need to look into something else?
And yes, I know turbo and 9.7 rotors usually isn't a good thing, but I've got great access to E85 locally and I know that can help prevent pre-ignition and/or detonation.
10-19-13, 05:11 PM
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I'm not opposed to ideas, I'd rather build it up now than have to yank it back out and worry later.
What are the cons of FD corners and s5/s6 turbo housings? I'm gonna keep it mild in the beginning and say maybe a mild/large street port, if anything, and anywhere between 250-350whp. I'm assuming most pros and cons depend on power levels.
What are the cons of FD corners and s5/s6 turbo housings? I'm gonna keep it mild in the beginning and say maybe a mild/large street port, if anything, and anywhere between 250-350whp. I'm assuming most pros and cons depend on power levels.
10-19-13, 05:16 PM
#4
FD corners are the same, the springs are different. i haven't found a con for the FD corner seal springs yet since they are just an overall better design. the minor con would be that they eventually do dig into the corner seal but the wire springs do as well.
S5/6 housings are also better overall, the con is price and finding them in good shape all the same as the early housings. since they are generally in better condition then they usually cost twice as much.
pro to high compression is low end response, con is lower possible boost levels before detonation occurs. in other words the higher compression will wake up the mid range but suffer in reduced high end horsepower.
all 6 port blocks have the thin castings and are susceptible to engine twisting failure at higher horsepower levels. also the 6 port blocks tend to outbreathe smaller turbos much quicker than mid/large framed turbos. in other words, a turbo 6 port block with a stock/hybrid turbo will leave you wondering why the boost falls off like a 60 year old hooker who runs out of stamina after 6k. the pro is that your power peak is now 6k instead of 7-8k, which means the engine isn't overworking itself to make power but the power range IS narrower.
if you want to turbo it i would suggest building it for turbo to start with, ie 4 port block with turbo intake. IMO, high compression with ethanol fuel is the way to go and i mentioned that it would be the future trend many years ago. the con with this is that the high compression engine requires a larger framed turbo to utilize the engine, which means it is beast or kitten.
with the stat gears i have seen no evidence that any is superior versus the other. i have never seen an n/a engine break the standard gears, i have seen the turbo engines break the hardened stat gears with stock power levels. what does that mean though? nothing really, only that if a stat gear is going to break it doesn't matter if it is hardened or not.
FD bearings versus standard, i have also seen no evidence that the 7 window FD bearing is superior. the bearings show the same wear whether they are old style or new.
e-shafts, the renesis shaft is the lightest. this means higher revs with smoother running, ie less bearing wear, assuming it is balanced properly to begin with and uses the appropriate lubricant. the lightening is done on the rotor lobes, so the overall strength of the shaft should be equal to the older shafts.
apex seals are a 100 page documentary, everyone has their own personal opinion on each type and they all have their place. personally i feel that the cast iron OE seals have no place in a turbo engine, but that is just my opinion. in non turbo engines cast iron seals are the best compromise, assuming you know how to build an engine.
S5/6 housings are also better overall, the con is price and finding them in good shape all the same as the early housings. since they are generally in better condition then they usually cost twice as much.
pro to high compression is low end response, con is lower possible boost levels before detonation occurs. in other words the higher compression will wake up the mid range but suffer in reduced high end horsepower.
all 6 port blocks have the thin castings and are susceptible to engine twisting failure at higher horsepower levels. also the 6 port blocks tend to outbreathe smaller turbos much quicker than mid/large framed turbos. in other words, a turbo 6 port block with a stock/hybrid turbo will leave you wondering why the boost falls off like a 60 year old hooker who runs out of stamina after 6k. the pro is that your power peak is now 6k instead of 7-8k, which means the engine isn't overworking itself to make power but the power range IS narrower.
if you want to turbo it i would suggest building it for turbo to start with, ie 4 port block with turbo intake. IMO, high compression with ethanol fuel is the way to go and i mentioned that it would be the future trend many years ago. the con with this is that the high compression engine requires a larger framed turbo to utilize the engine, which means it is beast or kitten.
with the stat gears i have seen no evidence that any is superior versus the other. i have never seen an n/a engine break the standard gears, i have seen the turbo engines break the hardened stat gears with stock power levels. what does that mean though? nothing really, only that if a stat gear is going to break it doesn't matter if it is hardened or not.
FD bearings versus standard, i have also seen no evidence that the 7 window FD bearing is superior. the bearings show the same wear whether they are old style or new.
e-shafts, the renesis shaft is the lightest. this means higher revs with smoother running, ie less bearing wear, assuming it is balanced properly to begin with and uses the appropriate lubricant. the lightening is done on the rotor lobes, so the overall strength of the shaft should be equal to the older shafts.
apex seals are a 100 page documentary, everyone has their own personal opinion on each type and they all have their place. personally i feel that the cast iron OE seals have no place in a turbo engine, but that is just my opinion. in non turbo engines cast iron seals are the best compromise, assuming you know how to build an engine.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 10-19-13 at 05:38 PM.
10-19-13, 06:34 PM
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Oh, I thought about an NA/T build a long time ago but after reading Aaron's writeup and a few other things, I've since decided it's going to be 4 port block. I've heard the 6 port irons don't hold up well to boost, but that was usually around 500whp or so.
On housings, if I can't find a decent turbo set, which would you recommend out of what I currently have? I've got N/A S4, currently in the car, and the N/A S5 from the spare keg.
Stat gears I should be able to reuse then? Depending on condition.
FD bearings, I'm assuming you mean the rotor bearings?
E-shaft, I'd love to have either a 2-piece or a Renesis one but again I'll probably have to stick to either the S4 or S5 I've got.
And apex seals, I've dredged through a lot of the seal threads over time and I've thought about going with either Mazda OEM, Atkins, or Super Seals.
Also, I've got the specs on the turbo from my buddy, what would you say on this one? Again, I'm not looking for big number right now, just want to get into the turbo world someday. So, if it ends up sitting on the shelf until I finally turbo that's fine with me.
Brand: Borgwarner / IHI
Model: 51T-32
Size: T3/T04E
Compressor A/R: 0.7
Compressor trim: 46
Turbine A/R: 0.6
Turbine trim: stage II
Flange type: standard T3
On housings, if I can't find a decent turbo set, which would you recommend out of what I currently have? I've got N/A S4, currently in the car, and the N/A S5 from the spare keg.
Stat gears I should be able to reuse then? Depending on condition.
FD bearings, I'm assuming you mean the rotor bearings?
E-shaft, I'd love to have either a 2-piece or a Renesis one but again I'll probably have to stick to either the S4 or S5 I've got.
And apex seals, I've dredged through a lot of the seal threads over time and I've thought about going with either Mazda OEM, Atkins, or Super Seals.
Also, I've got the specs on the turbo from my buddy, what would you say on this one? Again, I'm not looking for big number right now, just want to get into the turbo world someday. So, if it ends up sitting on the shelf until I finally turbo that's fine with me.
Brand: Borgwarner / IHI
Model: 51T-32
Size: T3/T04E
Compressor A/R: 0.7
Compressor trim: 46
Turbine A/R: 0.6
Turbine trim: stage II
Flange type: standard T3
10-19-13, 06:49 PM
#7
any housings from after 1986 will work in virtually any engine. on the TII models since the turbo is fed coolant from the rear housing, the port can be machined out to open up coolant flow.
i have no preference if the housings are in good shape initially.
and a T3 based turbo won't work well with the high compression engine, it will run out of steam. turbine should be a T4 or above with a 1.12 or higher area, anything less will bottleneck it. that turbo will marginally spool quicker but fall on it's face at about 6500.
i have no preference if the housings are in good shape initially.
and a T3 based turbo won't work well with the high compression engine, it will run out of steam. turbine should be a T4 or above with a 1.12 or higher area, anything less will bottleneck it. that turbo will marginally spool quicker but fall on it's face at about 6500.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 10-19-13 at 06:52 PM.
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10-19-13, 06:55 PM
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K-Tune, turbos are foreign to me, so please explain? I know lower turbine A/R's are better for lower range and can choke high rpm, but what's too much or too little on a rotary?
RE, so basically, just a set of irons, all my seals, gaskets, and I'm pretty much good then? Pretty much just leaving me with the s5 rotating assembly, housings, and bearings being used.
RE, so basically, just a set of irons, all my seals, gaskets, and I'm pretty much good then? Pretty much just leaving me with the s5 rotating assembly, housings, and bearings being used.
10-19-13, 07:00 PM
#9
yes, just swapping out the turbo irons which will alleviate some of the bottlenecking issue in feeding the turbo and maintaining boost.
keep in mind the 4 port irons are no stronger than the 6 port n/a irons, the only difference being the rather rare thick cast S5 rear iron which will stabilize the block better.
i generally recommend studding for anything over 350whp on the 86-91 engines, an older engine(not recently rebuilt) may hold up to 500whp but it is only a matter of time before it loses grip and breaks. granted most people rarely get into the 400+ figures, so often times they rarely see the block's deficiencies. on the odd occasion you come across a thick cast S5 turbo rear plate it should be fine for 500whp, but most S5 turbo engines do NOT have the thick cast iron and for some reason i keep seeing the mentality that if it is S5 turbo and a rear iron that it immediately is the better version.
mazda only refined the S5 turbo blocks when they were doing R+D on the cosmo RE and the FD REW engines which made nearly 100 more horsepower and i suspect then they began breaking components and upgraded them, very late in the series 5 production.
keep in mind the 4 port irons are no stronger than the 6 port n/a irons, the only difference being the rather rare thick cast S5 rear iron which will stabilize the block better.
i generally recommend studding for anything over 350whp on the 86-91 engines, an older engine(not recently rebuilt) may hold up to 500whp but it is only a matter of time before it loses grip and breaks. granted most people rarely get into the 400+ figures, so often times they rarely see the block's deficiencies. on the odd occasion you come across a thick cast S5 turbo rear plate it should be fine for 500whp, but most S5 turbo engines do NOT have the thick cast iron and for some reason i keep seeing the mentality that if it is S5 turbo and a rear iron that it immediately is the better version.
mazda only refined the S5 turbo blocks when they were doing R+D on the cosmo RE and the FD REW engines which made nearly 100 more horsepower and i suspect then they began breaking components and upgraded them, very late in the series 5 production.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 10-19-13 at 07:08 PM.
10-19-13, 07:11 PM
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I see what you did there, sneaking in that edit as I put my edit in there. So, would 4 port irons still be as big of a bottleneck with that turbo?
And darn, doesn't studding require all five pieces? That'd be a bear on shipping I'd imagine.
And darn, doesn't studding require all five pieces? That'd be a bear on shipping I'd imagine.
10-19-13, 07:16 PM
#11
lol, i'm the edit king. always gotta recheck my posts.
the 4 port irons will be better with the T3 turbo but the hotside A/R is still way too small. if you want to make power all the way to redline the snail would have to be upgraded along with the manifold to a T4 with larger A/R.
studding doesn't always require the block to be milled, some kits like turblowns don't require any milling and rely on the high tensile strength of the bolts to keep the block compressed. other kits with less tensile strength bolts require a machine fit to keep the block from being able to twist via friction fit.
i'm looking into making both types but right now i only do friction fit tension bolts which require block milling. making tension bolts that hold 200,000psi isn't an easy thing to ask, probably even overkill. with friction fit bolts the load is spread throughout the stud and not localized to the front and rear iron.
just be weary of some kits that have low tensile strength bolts that do not require block milling, such as titanium which only has an upper range of about 60,000psi. it's a fine material for friction fit bolts but not as a localized non milled set(the bolts with stretch and flex, doing very little for block rigidity). i have used chromoly steel for tension bolts with similar properties to titanium(titanium is just 10 times the price and 1/2 the weight) in milled blocks with good success.
the 4 port irons will be better with the T3 turbo but the hotside A/R is still way too small. if you want to make power all the way to redline the snail would have to be upgraded along with the manifold to a T4 with larger A/R.
studding doesn't always require the block to be milled, some kits like turblowns don't require any milling and rely on the high tensile strength of the bolts to keep the block compressed. other kits with less tensile strength bolts require a machine fit to keep the block from being able to twist via friction fit.
i'm looking into making both types but right now i only do friction fit tension bolts which require block milling. making tension bolts that hold 200,000psi isn't an easy thing to ask, probably even overkill. with friction fit bolts the load is spread throughout the stud and not localized to the front and rear iron.
just be weary of some kits that have low tensile strength bolts that do not require block milling, such as titanium which only has an upper range of about 60,000psi. it's a fine material for friction fit bolts but not as a localized non milled set(the bolts with stretch and flex, doing very little for block rigidity). i have used chromoly steel for tension bolts with similar properties to titanium(titanium is just 10 times the price and 1/2 the weight) in milled blocks with good success.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 10-19-13 at 07:25 PM.
10-19-13, 10:02 PM
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Alright, I was reading through the budget hybrid thread and that raised another question, are there any parts that could be used from that turbo? I know somebody that has a junk ht18.
I may look into turblowns kit, got a link? Or would you even recommend a kit like that?
I may look into turblowns kit, got a link? Or would you even recommend a kit like that?
10-19-13, 10:25 PM
#13
any hybrid is only going to be suitable for a 8.5-9.0:1 engine, even then marginally, it just won't flow well enough to keep up with the higher demand. upgrading the cold side just compounds that issue.
i have never personally tried turblown's stud kit, i know know that there are a few different bolt on stud kits that require no modification to the engine. i know Goopy also sells a kit but it is not a complete set and the 12mm shank bolts will only fit in about half of the stud bores so it is a partial kit. turblown's is listed as working without modification, but the only picture i have to base it off of appears to have had the housings drilled. if that is the case then it is hardly a slap on bolt set, some of the S4 housing bores are as small as 10mm and not centered.
i have never personally tried turblown's stud kit, i know know that there are a few different bolt on stud kits that require no modification to the engine. i know Goopy also sells a kit but it is not a complete set and the 12mm shank bolts will only fit in about half of the stud bores so it is a partial kit. turblown's is listed as working without modification, but the only picture i have to base it off of appears to have had the housings drilled. if that is the case then it is hardly a slap on bolt set, some of the S4 housing bores are as small as 10mm and not centered.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 10-19-13 at 10:29 PM.
10-20-13, 01:50 AM
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Okay, well reading up on stud kits, it seems I won't be able to use a stock flywheel. What is the reasoning behind this and what aftermarket ones work? I'm going to have to get something anyways if I intend on using the auto s5 assembly.
10-20-13, 11:46 AM
#19
most kits are supposed to work with a stock flywheel but the clearances are a little less than desirable. Goopy uses bolts instead of studs, which gives 100% stock flywheel usability but the front iron at least have to be modified.
10-21-13, 04:45 AM
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Okay, well I've got somebody local that has front and rear t2 irons, I'll have to check them out. I was wondering if I would still be able to use either one of my center irons or would I need to get a t2 center?