TII dyno disappointment...wtf is the power?
01-03-06, 06:24 AM
#1
Haven't we ALL heard this
Thread Starter
TII dyno disappointment...where is the juice!
Well, got my car to the dyno to do some loaded tuning it ... here are the mods...
Engine:
- New rotor housings
- New sideseals, corner seals, springs
- Rotary Aviation apex seals with OEM springs
- RA coolant / combustion seals
- Oil pan baffle and stud kit
- New oil pump
- Exhaust / Intake ported with Racing Beat templates
- Mazda Competition engine mounts
- Mazdatrix SS braided oil cooler lines
-E6K
- No emmisions and pre-mixing
- Racing Beat turbo back exhaust (3" Downpipe)
- BNR Stage 3 Turbo (60-1 Hybrid) S4 Hotside
- Greddy FMIC V-Spec core
- No AC / PS (Installed a manual rack)
- Racing Beat lightened steel flywheel
- ACT Street Strip clutch
- SS clutch line
- Redline tranny fluid
- Mazda Competition transmission and differential mounts
- Koyo radiator
Here is what it did....
And the datalogs:
Ignore the AFR ... there is a slight exhaust leak and my incar WB02 said it was in the 11.0 - 12.0.
I know not having a boost controller is killing power...since it is letting boost rise progressively. Compressor line is going straight to the wastegate actuator. The lack of boost control is troubling. I was expecting more from the size of the wastegate. Bryan said I might need to adjust the wastegate rod.
The other troubling thing is the hot compression check 90 psi all faces both rotors. I was hoping for better with RA seals, OEM springs, and brand new housings.
Any thoughts? I don't $^%#$%$ understand...the boost is there, the intake temps are there, the fuel is there, and the ignition is there (Abit conservative and a stock hitman map aside from my fuel adjustments)
Engine:
- New rotor housings
- New sideseals, corner seals, springs
- Rotary Aviation apex seals with OEM springs
- RA coolant / combustion seals
- Oil pan baffle and stud kit
- New oil pump
- Exhaust / Intake ported with Racing Beat templates
- Mazda Competition engine mounts
- Mazdatrix SS braided oil cooler lines
-E6K
- No emmisions and pre-mixing
- Racing Beat turbo back exhaust (3" Downpipe)
- BNR Stage 3 Turbo (60-1 Hybrid) S4 Hotside
- Greddy FMIC V-Spec core
- No AC / PS (Installed a manual rack)
- Racing Beat lightened steel flywheel
- ACT Street Strip clutch
- SS clutch line
- Redline tranny fluid
- Mazda Competition transmission and differential mounts
- Koyo radiator
Here is what it did....
And the datalogs:
Ignore the AFR ... there is a slight exhaust leak and my incar WB02 said it was in the 11.0 - 12.0.
I know not having a boost controller is killing power...since it is letting boost rise progressively. Compressor line is going straight to the wastegate actuator. The lack of boost control is troubling. I was expecting more from the size of the wastegate. Bryan said I might need to adjust the wastegate rod.
The other troubling thing is the hot compression check 90 psi all faces both rotors. I was hoping for better with RA seals, OEM springs, and brand new housings.
Any thoughts? I don't $^%#$%$ understand...the boost is there, the intake temps are there, the fuel is there, and the ignition is there (Abit conservative and a stock hitman map aside from my fuel adjustments)
Last edited by Wankel7; 01-03-06 at 06:39 AM.
01-03-06, 06:41 AM
#4
Seduced by the DARK SIDE
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Orange Park FL (near Jax)
Posts: 7,323
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
Where's the HP? - Out the waste gate, that's where.
Even a cheap MBC will push the boost right on up.
I only have an S-AFC, so I have not worked with spark timing.
What do the experts say about the spark timing?
Even a cheap MBC will push the boost right on up.
I only have an S-AFC, so I have not worked with spark timing.
What do the experts say about the spark timing?
Trending Topics
01-03-06, 07:54 AM
#8
Originally Posted by hondahater
holy **** I would be pissed as well. What boost are you running?
Yea, I hellped build the engine and I seriously doubt me and James fucked anything up so its very troubling seeing the compression numbers, while the power numbers might be conservative timing and bad boost control.
01-03-06, 08:03 AM
#10
how many miles on the motor? Is the motor broken in? Of course with new housings and seals you probably don't need to much of one for compression reasons. I'm kinda in the same boat as you though. Me and sonicrat took compression readings of my rebuild with 50k housings and new RA apex seals and it was 80 and 87 but it looks like the alternator was bad and the start isn't spinning very fast (going bad) so this may be the culprit to the bad numbers. Anyways keep us posted as i have about the same mods as you and if i spent all this money to only get 200hp i may just take this car out back and pull a jessie james on it 
01-03-06, 08:18 AM
#11
J,
Your split is around 3 degrees or so, and thats not considered by many to be particularly safe, I run about 12 degrees of split under boost, but I am going to drop that to 8. Rumor has it someone found about 30ish HP just by dropping to an 8 deg split.
Your split is around 3 degrees or so, and thats not considered by many to be particularly safe, I run about 12 degrees of split under boost, but I am going to drop that to 8. Rumor has it someone found about 30ish HP just by dropping to an 8 deg split.
Last edited by J-Rat; 01-03-06 at 08:29 AM.
01-03-06, 08:46 AM
#12
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Tucson, AZ. USA
Posts: 329
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rat pointed me to this thread.
A few thoughts.
- You need more boost. Low compression and low boost = low cylinder pressure and lower HP. I'd go for 13.5-14.0 psi on 91 with 90 psi rotors.
- More split like Rat said. 3-5 isn't very safe. Even 8 degrees is pushing it a little. 12 degrees if you want to stay completely safe. At 10 psi I'd be running 8 split.
- At 10 psi you need more timing. At 10 psi and 4500 I'd shoot for 20 degrees.
- By 14 psi at 4500 I'd shoot for 16 degrees
- From 5000-7500 timing should ramp up. 1 extra degree of advance per 500 RPM is safe but my personal car is set at roughly 1.5/500 after the torque starts dropping off and the cylinder pressures decrease.
- You said 11.0-12.0 right? You're lean if you're running 12.0. Get it down under 11.5.
- On the other end you may have some trouble lighting the mix at 11.0 if you don't have a good ignition setup. Fatter than 11.0 misfires become more and more common and by 10.8 it's probably happening. I try to stay at 11.2-11.5 on 91-94 octane. I know that's a tight range but that's where they like it...fat as hell with a light enough mix that'll still light decently.
A few thoughts.
- You need more boost. Low compression and low boost = low cylinder pressure and lower HP. I'd go for 13.5-14.0 psi on 91 with 90 psi rotors.
- More split like Rat said. 3-5 isn't very safe. Even 8 degrees is pushing it a little. 12 degrees if you want to stay completely safe. At 10 psi I'd be running 8 split.
- At 10 psi you need more timing. At 10 psi and 4500 I'd shoot for 20 degrees.
- By 14 psi at 4500 I'd shoot for 16 degrees
- From 5000-7500 timing should ramp up. 1 extra degree of advance per 500 RPM is safe but my personal car is set at roughly 1.5/500 after the torque starts dropping off and the cylinder pressures decrease.
- You said 11.0-12.0 right? You're lean if you're running 12.0. Get it down under 11.5.
- On the other end you may have some trouble lighting the mix at 11.0 if you don't have a good ignition setup. Fatter than 11.0 misfires become more and more common and by 10.8 it's probably happening. I try to stay at 11.2-11.5 on 91-94 octane. I know that's a tight range but that's where they like it...fat as hell with a light enough mix that'll still light decently.
01-03-06, 10:38 AM
#13
Full Member
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: west virginia
Posts: 68
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by SureShot
Another possibility.
Could you smell hot rubber after the pull?
Maybe the tires were slipping.
Could you smell hot rubber after the pull?
Maybe the tires were slipping.
01-03-06, 12:05 PM
#14
Originally Posted by hondahater
how many miles on the motor? Is the motor broken in? Of course with new housings and seals you probably don't need to much of one for compression reasons. I'm kinda in the same boat as you though. Me and sonicrat took compression readings of my rebuild with 50k housings and new RA apex seals and it was 80 and 87 but it looks like the alternator was bad and the start isn't spinning very fast (going bad) so this may be the culprit to the bad numbers. Anyways keep us posted as i have about the same mods as you and if i spent all this money to only get 200hp i may just take this car out back and pull a jessie james on it
Over 2,000 miles on the keg. It should be broken in. We comp. tested 100psi on all six faces over 1k miles ago during a road trip to the east coast(like there's a west... lol) of texas.
His starter was doing good rpms while cranking although I believe it is an old starter.
01-03-06, 12:18 PM
#15
you need a bigger wastegate, that's killing power right there.
my car was tuned to 10.8:1 AFR's with stock ignition totally and had no trouble igniting the mixture... I had a crappy wastegate rod though that was killing boost at high RPM so we didn't get very far at all into the tuning process - but jeez, there should be another 70-100 horsepower found just in tuning, once you get an MBC and proper wastegate setup.
I'm not going to comment on timing since I don't know enough about it - but the above advice may be true!
my car was tuned to 10.8:1 AFR's with stock ignition totally and had no trouble igniting the mixture... I had a crappy wastegate rod though that was killing boost at high RPM so we didn't get very far at all into the tuning process - but jeez, there should be another 70-100 horsepower found just in tuning, once you get an MBC and proper wastegate setup.
I'm not going to comment on timing since I don't know enough about it - but the above advice may be true!
01-03-06, 12:38 PM
#16
the wastegate is not the problem, many people have gotten well over 300 RWHP from this setup, though i would probably tighten the WG spring tension.
try running up the split timing as everyone has mentioned, run all BR9EQ plugs (if you aren't already)and richen it up a tiny bit.
try running up the split timing as everyone has mentioned, run all BR9EQ plugs (if you aren't already)and richen it up a tiny bit.
01-03-06, 02:17 PM
#18
Originally Posted by Terrh
I'm not going to comment on timing since I don't know enough about it - but the above advice may be true!
01-03-06, 02:24 PM
#19
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Tucson, AZ. USA
Posts: 329
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Terrh
my car was tuned to 10.8:1 AFR's with stock ignition totally and had no trouble igniting the mixture...
01-03-06, 03:30 PM
#20
James,
The theory here is that you should be advancing the timing after the torque peak to take advantage of the lower cylinder pressures. Your timing stays low and just gets LOWER. I need to take a look at my timing curves and we can talk on the phone later about it.
The theory here is that you should be advancing the timing after the torque peak to take advantage of the lower cylinder pressures. Your timing stays low and just gets LOWER. I need to take a look at my timing curves and we can talk on the phone later about it.
01-03-06, 04:23 PM
#23
I'm a boost creep...
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 15,608
Likes: 0
Received 8 Likes
on
8 Posts
Originally Posted by Terrh
you need a bigger wastegate, that's killing power right there.
Last edited by NZConvertible; 01-03-06 at 04:26 PM.
01-03-06, 06:21 PM
#24
Originally Posted by J-Rat
James,
The theory here is that you should be advancing the timing after the torque peak to take advantage of the lower cylinder pressures. Your timing stays low and just gets LOWER. I need to take a look at my timing curves and we can talk on the phone later about it.
The theory here is that you should be advancing the timing after the torque peak to take advantage of the lower cylinder pressures. Your timing stays low and just gets LOWER. I need to take a look at my timing curves and we can talk on the phone later about it.
Is the reason that the split is kept higher(8*-10* was it?) because the E6K doesn't have the accuracy for the 3* ?