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I've stated in another post that id like 260 hp as a final goal. but as to how to get there i think id like to turbo my car with a stock turbo from a TII and I'm wondering if anyone has any other ideas of what i can do to or how I'd go about turboing my na engine. main thing I'm looking for is every way to make reliable power without pulling the motor, so far I've got a full exhaust, emissions delete and a k&n air filter so nothing big but a little bit (I'd also like any guesses as to how much hp i might currently have with that). I'm fine with not making a lot more power without pulling the motor if that's just how it is I'm just trying to get an idea of what is and isn't doable and how to go about everything.
There are three ways to do it in descending order of complexity:
1. Swap the turbo engine (I know you mention turbocharging your existing engine but just for completion). You need the engine, ECU, sensors, inlet hoses, and to modify the harness slightly. TII transmission recommended, TII diff recommended for higher HP.
This option is well documented on the forum.
2. Swap the TII intakes, turbocharger, etc onto your existing NA engine. Only mod required is to port the intake manifold to match (see Aaron's site for a how-to on that as well) and to use a standalone ECU. Another forum member (Relisys) has recently done this, check out his build thread for a really clean install. It can work very well if you do the work properly.
3. Turbocharge your NA engine the way Aaron did initially in the above link. This is the most challenging because you need a custom manifold or spacer for stock TII stuff, a standalone (don't gamble on the stock ECU), custom downpipe, front mount intercooler with same-side exits, all the piping on the one side of the car, etc. It's just a lot of extra work IMO as far as packaging is concerned because nothing here is "off the shelf". You can retain the 6 port system if you're clever about the spacing, check out Aaroncake on YouTube and look at his Rx5 Cosmo series.
I've been on a slow path to accumulate all the parts for option #2. If I had no budget limitations it would be done already, but trying to find deals on all the parts and save money by rebuilding things myself I am only now approaching a complete "turbo kit" 4 years later.
IMO option 2 is the best. Finding a good TII longblock is expensive these days. Figure in a rebuild since most JDM engines are now useful as cores only, and the cost is getting pretty high for a 30 year old engine. Meanwhile if you already have a healthy NA engine then that part is done.
Keep in mind that if you want more power down the line the other big expense of option 2 (standalone) is already factored into option 1.
Option 3 works and works fine, but you have to really want to do it that way IMO for it to make sense over the others. A member named Hygoog had a clean install too, using a Haltech and an old Cartech turbo kit that is no longer made anymore.
And lastly is option 4 which I also like, check out j9fd3s' car in the build thread section. Swap a 13B-REW from an FD. A very good choice for people who want a more recent engine that can handle more power, and engine parts are more readily available. Some FC stuff is still available new, but much of it is NLA and we are hoping Mazda's heritage parts program will help alleviate this.
You can search the members' names that I've mentioned and find their work here on the forum. I'd link the threads but I'm on mobile and it doesnt always link properly.
Best of luck, and no matter what you choose to do please post a build thread about it so we can see
And lastly is option 4 which I also like, check out j9fd3s' car in the build thread section. Swap a 13B-REW from an FD. A very good choice for people who want a more recent engine that can handle more power, and engine parts are more readily available. Some FC stuff is still available new, but much of it is NLA and we are hoping Mazda's heritage parts program will help alleviate this.
i'm working on kind of an FAQ thread, but the REW had made some sense in 2019. the REW makes ~50 more hp and can do it while being smog legal, if needed.
it is more work to put it in, getting it in the car is easy, but plumbing it up is some work. quickly, the REW has a better TPS, CAS, the intakes are better, the air pump is better, it uses a serpentine belt instead of V belts. the FD water pump is lighter, the ignition (if you choose to use it) is lighter, and more centered in the car. The downsides are that the FD requires a front mount intercooler (or some V mount), the lower radiator hose was moved on the FD, to make room for the longer twin turbos, so that needs to be figured out. the twin turbos fit, but its super tight, and the exhaust needs to be fabricated. the FC turbo fits nicely and allows an FC exhaust. the FD throttle elbow and the FC PS/AC do not play well together. etc etc
a lot of little stuff just plugs in and works though, the FD fuel pump goes right in, and the fuel lines are the same. the FD throttle cable just drops in and works. the T2 clutch bolts right up
if you're just buying an engine, they are more expensive used than new now (you can do a new engine for like $5k, used are like 7-9k?). so unless you're getting a deal, its cheaper just to build a 13BT. it is also worth mentioning that the JDM tuner shops build things that look like REW's, but are actually 13BT's with the REW front cover, upper intake and water pump, basically they do the upgrades but have something that bolts in the car.
this is an actual REW with a pair of aftermarket turbos
13BT with REW intake, i think the PS is spaced way out
it is also worth mentioning that the JDM tuner shops build things that look like REW's, but are actually 13BT's with the REW front cover, upper intake and water pump, basically they do the upgrades but have something that bolts in the car.
13BT with REW intake, i think the PS is spaced way out
Something like this is my end goal and I've been slowly collecting the pieces. I have the FD Upper intake and throttle body already. Is that an FD lower on the red car? I don't see an adapter between the UIM and LIM. I just ordered an FD lower. It may be a big paperweight but I'm hoping with some cutting and welding I can make it work or I may just buy FD irons for my next engine since the front iron on my 13BT has a broken coolant passage, and the intermediate has a deep pit on one of the faces. Still need the intake elbow just haven't decided on which one. Stock ones are cheaper but need to be modified so I may go with the Greddy one like in the picture. I actually plan to turbo my 6-port n/a engine first since it's still got less than 100k miles since the last rebuild.
Is that an FD lower on the red car? I don't see an adapter between the UIM and LIM. I just ordered an FD lower. It may be a big paperweight but I'm hoping with some cutting and welding I can make it work
I think it's just the stock T2 lower port-matched to the FD upper. An adapter is better but I read into this awhile back and you can port match them.
An FD lower will not fit an FC block, but if you want to cut and weld then anything is possible of course.
Originally Posted by Dak
or I may just buy FD irons for my next engine since the front iron on my 13BT has a broken coolant passage, and the intermediate has a deep pit on one of the faces.
FD irons don't have the coolant seal groove, as FD engines have this groove on the housing. So you would either have to buy FD housings and irons (meaning you can use your LIM and UIM as is, but have basically built an entire REW engine), or have them machined in if you really wanted FC housings.
Keep in mind though that the FC center iron integrates the engine mounts, and on the FD it's the rear iron meaning you will need a different solution for engine mounts.
Since you've indicated you can weld though, that makes the fabrication a lot less daunting.
I think it's just the stock T2 lower port-matched to the FD upper. An adapter is better but I read into this awhile back and you can port match them.
you can see the FC fuel rail its for sure the FC intake. Greddy elbow, the PS is not in the stock spot (which means AC isn't possible)
This one is interesting they managed to fit the battery, coil and intercooler pipe, and make it look easy
Note 3, the intakes are in different places, so the S5 lower and FD upper has the intake slightly further back or its at a slightly different angle, that same pipe combo is miles off on my car
FD irons don't have the coolant seal groove, as FD engines have this groove on the housing. .
FC and FD have the water seals in the same place, the irons.
I think it's just the stock T2 lower port-matched to the FD upper. An adapter is better but I read into this awhile back and you can port match them.
An FD lower will not fit an FC block, but if you want to cut and weld then anything is possible of course.
From looking at the pictures this is what I was thinking. I just want to get one in my hands to see what might be possible, though I'd really like to go the FD/ REW irons route. With current Mazdatrix pricing it's only $419.61 more to buy all three REW housings vs the center and front TII ones. Though TII ones are marginally easier to find used.
Originally Posted by WondrousBread
FD irons don't have the coolant seal groove, as FD engines have this groove on the housing. So you would either have to buy FD housings and irons (meaning you can use your LIM and UIM as is, but have basically built an entire REW engine), or have them machined in if you really wanted FC housings.
Keep in mind though that the FC center iron integrates the engine mounts, and on the FD it's the rear iron meaning you will need a different solution for engine mounts.
Since you've indicated you can weld though, that makes the fabrication a lot less daunting.
I think it was the RX-8 engine the coolant seal grooves moved to the rotor housings. They should still be in the irons on the FD/ REW so I should be good.
you can see the FC fuel rail its for sure the FC intake. Greddy elbow, the PS is not in the stock spot (which means AC isn't possible)
This one is interesting they managed to fit the battery, coil and intercooler pipe, and make it look easy
Note 3, the intakes are in different places, so the S5 lower and FD upper has the intake slightly further back or its at a slightly different angle, that same pipe combo is miles off on my car
.
I thought that looked like an FC Rail. My AC hasn't worked in years so I'm not too opposed to getting rid of it. I thought I saw a side mount PS setup somewhere on here. That car does make it look easy though, if you look at the finished product on your car and not at the whole build thread it doesn't look hard on the surface either. Looks like it fits right in. Easy peasy.
Here is Aaron Cake's writeup for porting the TII lower to fit the N/a block that was mentioned previously. Porting The 4 Port Turbo II Lower Intake To Fit The 6 Port NA Block (aaroncake.net) I like this method as it seems to make adding the turbo a more bolt on affair. There are still oil and cooling issues to solve which he covered in his other writeup and the other posted build thread. I think one of the problems of attempting to do this swap now is it's getting harder to find all the parts.
I think one of the problems of attempting to do this swap now is it's getting harder to find all the parts.
this and the cost are the two big drivers, imho. i'm thinking the smart way is to just build a T2 engine and if you want the FD upgrades use the FD front cover, upper intake and water pump.
its basically what Mr Fujita did ~20 years ago, one of my favorite FC's. sorry for the tiny pics, but i do find those little pics are usually inspiring
its a 13BT with an FD front cover and intake. Mr Fujita's way is tricky, as you need his pulley kit to use the serpentine style belt
the other car is the FC2000 from Re Amemiya. 13BT with the FD intake and water pump on it, but they keep the FC front cover and CAS
interestingly both cars are using TD07 turbos, pretty close to a 60-1 To4
Is the FD water pump housing a direct bolt on for the S5/S4 FC front cover apart from having to do something with the pump inlet and outlet and the pullies?
Let me know if you have any questions and I can definitely help. I had everything finished up in the course of about 5 months. Obviously you dont need to go this deep into it. I chose to run E-85 so there are several other parts of the build that need to be considered for that. You can run smaller injectors for 93 pump fuel (depending on your boost/power goals of course) ...
Is the FD water pump housing a direct bolt on for the S5/S4 FC front cover apart from having to do something with the pump inlet and outlet and the pullies?
you need to run the FD belt, and alternator, which is a nice upgrade. the inlet and outlets are completely different. the upper hose (outlet) is not a big deal, you just need a U shape, the stock FD upper hose fits with some trimming.
the lower is kind of impossible, you need a 90 degree bend and a 110 degree bend in a really short run. or you can cut the lower pipe off and have a piece of pipe welded in like i did. or you can run a different radiator.
you also must then have an electric fan (the quest /villager or 88-94 Taurus/Sable/continental setup F4TZ-8C607-CA) work great
the lower is kind of impossible, you need a 90 degree bend and a 110 degree bend in a really short run. or you can cut the lower pipe off and have a piece of pipe welded in like i did. or you can run a different radiator.
cutting and welding the lower like you did in the blue car is the nicest solution by far.
this and the cost are the two big drivers, imho. i'm thinking the smart way is to just build a T2 engine and if you want the FD upgrades use the FD front cover, upper intake and water pump.
its basically what Mr Fujita did ~20 years ago, one of my favorite FC's. sorry for the tiny pics, but i do find those little pics are usually inspiring
its a 13BT with an FD front cover and intake. Mr Fujita's way is tricky, as you need his pulley kit to use the serpentine style belt
Right now as far as intakes go there is more FD stuff than TII stuff on Ebay. I haven't checked the marketplace on here. Right now since I'll need a front and intermediate housing for my next engine the direction I take will be dictated by which housings I can find later on. By the time I need them 13BT stuff may be NLA. I'm in a weird spot since I plan to turbo my 6-port but then go to a 4-port when it's time for another engine. I'm sort of planning out parts for two builds. If I port match my TII lower, then when I do the next engine, I'll need another manifold, but they seem to have become scarce, but there are cheap FD ones on Ebay(albeit from Russia, I'll let you know how that goes). I've about decided over the next few years to pick up a part here and there untill I have enough parts to put together a REW block.
That yellow FC is nice. I'm going to have to look the FC2000 back up.
Richard Miller made this manifold for his 6 port turbo 1st gen, love at first sight? you need one of them fancy newfangled internal wastegate turbos, but the plumbing gets super simple
cutting and welding the lower like you did in the blue car is the nicest solution by far.
i saw one where they cut it in the right spot and just clamped a hose on it
mine is just 1.5" pipe so it has the bead rolled on it, although the hose and the pipe are now one since i replaced the hose this summer
Richard Miller made this manifold for his 6 port turbo 1st gen, love at first sight? you need one of them fancy newfangled internal wastegate turbos, but the plumbing gets super simple
I was thinking of doing something similar to keep the aux port functionality, but the ease of the stock TII stuff just bolting on is hard to beat for simplicity.
Aaron has a similar setup on his Rx5. Plus a custom middle-intake manifold to space out the 6 port LIM from an FD upper and add injectors (since the 6 port LIM does not have injector locations). Pretty nifty, but you have to want to do a lot of fab work.
I was thinking of doing something similar to keep the aux port functionality, but the ease of the stock TII stuff just bolting on is hard to beat for simplicity.
Aaron has a similar setup on his Rx5. Plus a custom middle-intake manifold to space out the 6 port LIM from an FD upper and add injectors (since the 6 port LIM does not have injector locations). Pretty nifty, but you have to want to do a lot of fab work.
I have actually been kicking around doing exactly what Aaron did I just didn't realize he had already done it. My reasons are different though I wanted to do it while still n/a to see what difference a less convoluted intake path than the stock S5 would make while retaining the supercharging effect of the pulses from the rotor closing which if I understand the FD intake design correctly, using it would keep that effect. Somewhere along the way I thought why bother I have most of the turbo parts once I get my ECU installed and tuning figured out I'll go ahead and go turbo and porting the TII lower would be simpler. Curiosity killed the cat though and I still think I want to try the FD intake on the n/a. I do need to get a spool gun for my welder and learn to mig aluminum first though, Thanks for the heads up on Aaron's Rx-5 build. His site is just a goldmine of information.
Originally Posted by j9fd3s
Richard Miller made this manifold for his 6 port turbo 1st gen, love at first sight? you need one of them fancy newfangled internal wastegate turbos, but the plumbing gets super simple
To go along with if I do the FD upper on 6-port lower I had thought of just making a turbo manifold similar to this to space it to clear the 6-port manifold and add in an external wastegate instead of using the internal one on the stock turbo rather than porting the stock wastegate. Plumbing gets more complicated, but it doesn't look too bad to add an external wastegate. Why use an external WG on the stock turbo one might ask. I discovered that external wastegate Borg Warner turbos were around the same price as a BNR hybrid stock one which was my original plan. So I thought if I go external from the start it should solve the boost issues of the stock WG and allow me to get a more modern turbo when upgrade time comes for around the same money as a BNR.
Sorry O.P. for the thread hijack. It's still a little relevant, I guess.
02-02-22, 04:35 AM
