teardown of the recent "rebuild" that i bought (<2000 miles) get ready to cry for me
07-23-04, 08:43 AM
#1
teardown of the recent "rebuild" that i bought (<2000 miles) get ready to cry for me
recently, as some of you may have read, i bought an engine that was sold to me as an "atkins reman". i bought it from a fairly reputable rotary engine dealer who has sold many-a-jspec and many rebuilds. i'll not mention their name until i can try to get something worked out with them (which i think i may just be up **** creek without a paddle) some of you may already know of the company.
well, long story short, its had low compression since day one, so after about ~2000 miles of driving on it with compression under 75psi the whole time (never got above 80psi) I decided to take the car down to kevin landers. i trust kevin and i have talked to him for years on this forum, he has given me endless amounts of advice and i know he is a good guy and can be trusted.
i left my car with kevin and he got started on it shortly after i left it with him. he removed the engine and upon disassembly there were SEVERAL red flags, which i will show you one by one...
red flag #1. (rear rotor)
look how scarred that rotor is...
red flag #2 (rear iron)
note the corrosion in the coolant passage coming in towards the oring.
red flag #3 (rear housing)
red flag #4 on the left is a corner seal with 24k miles on it. on the right is a corner seal that was removed from my engine
red flag #5 (front rotor bearing) check out this rotor bearing i had been noticing that when i go to crank my car cold, its very slow to turn, but after about 2 seconds of cranking it cranks at the normal speed...
red flag #6 (front housing)
what kind of person in their right mind would use rotor housings this bad? my 160k NA motor with all blown seals had better rotor housings than this...
red flag #7 (oil ring)
very flat oil oring. very used oil control ring that was used when satan assembled this engine..
red flag #8 (corner seal)
this corner seal had atleast 100k miles on it.
thats all of the pictures.... i dont know what else to say except that i paid 1250 dollars for this engine. kevin said he would have been pissed if he paid 300 dollars for this engine as a "rebuildable core" and like i said, i'm trying to contact the company right now to work out SOMETHING. because i just paid 1300 dollars for an engine that i thought was going to be quality, and now i'm in the same boat with everyone else. i took my car to kevin landers and i dont even have anything to work with. he has to start from scratch assembling an engine for me because i have no reusable parts...
bottom line: if you are on this forum and you bought a "rebuilt" or "remanufactured" engine for 1250 dollars from ANYONE on here, beware; there's a reason why its 1250 dollars.
well, long story short, its had low compression since day one, so after about ~2000 miles of driving on it with compression under 75psi the whole time (never got above 80psi) I decided to take the car down to kevin landers. i trust kevin and i have talked to him for years on this forum, he has given me endless amounts of advice and i know he is a good guy and can be trusted.
i left my car with kevin and he got started on it shortly after i left it with him. he removed the engine and upon disassembly there were SEVERAL red flags, which i will show you one by one...
red flag #1. (rear rotor)
look how scarred that rotor is...
red flag #2 (rear iron)
note the corrosion in the coolant passage coming in towards the oring.
red flag #3 (rear housing)
red flag #4 on the left is a corner seal with 24k miles on it. on the right is a corner seal that was removed from my engine
red flag #5 (front rotor bearing) check out this rotor bearing
i had been noticing that when i go to crank my car cold, its very slow to turn, but after about 2 seconds of cranking it cranks at the normal speed...red flag #6 (front housing)
what kind of person in their right mind would use rotor housings this bad? my 160k NA motor with all blown seals had better rotor housings than this...
red flag #7 (oil ring)
very flat oil oring. very used oil control ring that was used when satan assembled this engine..red flag #8 (corner seal)
this corner seal had atleast 100k miles on it. thats all of the pictures.... i dont know what else to say except that i paid 1250 dollars for this engine. kevin said he would have been pissed if he paid 300 dollars for this engine as a "rebuildable core" and like i said, i'm trying to contact the company right now to work out SOMETHING. because i just paid 1300 dollars for an engine that i thought was going to be quality, and now i'm in the same boat with everyone else. i took my car to kevin landers and i dont even have anything to work with. he has to start from scratch assembling an engine for me because i have no reusable parts...
bottom line: if you are on this forum and you bought a "rebuilt" or "remanufactured" engine for 1250 dollars from ANYONE on here, beware; there's a reason why its 1250 dollars.
Last edited by jacobcartmill; 07-23-04 at 08:46 AM.
07-23-04, 08:52 AM
#4
the people offered to rebuild my engine only for the cost of parts if i shipped it to them... however thats the damn problem in the first place, it was built out of shitty parts and nothing is reusable.
they also offered to send me a jspec engine if i shipped them my engine for a straightup trade. i wont have another "USED" engine, so i'm gonna see if they will just give me the value of the jspec engine in cash so i'll have enough money to have kevin build me a proper engine.
if this whole thing doesnt work out and i dont end up getting a quality engine one way or another i'll definitely let you know who to stay away from.
they also offered to send me a jspec engine if i shipped them my engine for a straightup trade. i wont have another "USED" engine, so i'm gonna see if they will just give me the value of the jspec engine in cash so i'll have enough money to have kevin build me a proper engine.
if this whole thing doesnt work out and i dont end up getting a quality engine one way or another i'll definitely let you know who to stay away from.
07-23-04, 08:57 AM
#5
Engine, Not Motor
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Wow...That's unfortunate. Have you spoken to the builders about this? Well, at least it didnt' seize up after 1000KM...
Have you spoken to the builders about this? Well, at least it didnt' seize up after 1000KM...
Last edited by Aaron Cake; 07-23-04 at 09:13 AM.
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07-23-04, 09:45 AM
#9
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This is the EXACT reason i keep telling people to spend the extra monek and get the MASTER kit when they do a rebuild an a high mileage engine.. it just isn't worth it to save 380 bucks and re-use the old seals.
07-23-04, 09:56 AM
#10
Seduced by the DARK SIDE
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I hope your vendor can take this upstream.
It looks like his supplier mixed a return with a reman in inventory.
Hopefully He can swap you for another J-spec.
FWIW: My J-spec is showing 95's & 90's with no smoke.
It looks like his supplier mixed a return with a reman in inventory.
Hopefully He can swap you for another J-spec.
FWIW: My J-spec is showing 95's & 90's with no smoke.
07-23-04, 10:15 AM
#13
Seduced by the DARK SIDE
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Originally Posted by jacobcartmill
i didnt buy a jspec, i bought (or so i thought) a REBUILT ENGINE. not a used jspec. i dont want a used engine.
$1250 is the used engine with good compression price.
A rebuilt J-spec would have been $2500-$3500.
Since the compression was low, the swap should be for a used engine with good compression.
Anything more will cost more no matter where you go.
07-23-04, 10:39 AM
#15
Eat, sleep, work, mod.
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Wow, that stinks!! We knew something was up from day one with your motor from everything you'd posted. Hopefully you can get some cash and Kevin can build you something nice, the motor he built for me (SP'd TII rebuild) has been trouble free for the first 700 miles of it's life 
No starting issues at ALL means I got a pretty tight engine w/ good compression right off the bat.
No starting issues at ALL means I got a pretty tight engine w/ good compression right off the bat.
07-23-04, 01:17 PM
#16
yeah. the vendor i bought it from has agreed to work with me. i showed him the pictures and he was wondering how the car even started and he had no clue the engine was built that poorly. i'd like to get as much money back as possible because this motor is pretty much worth nothing. anyways, we'll see if anything actually follows through.
07-23-04, 01:31 PM
#17
This engine was obviously ASSEMBLED recently in this condition. This is what I'd call a freebie motor...one that a builder assembles out of SPARE PARTS just long enough to get it out the door...say for some POS used car, or some sort of emergency situation where it just needs to run for a short period of time. For one, water seals were like new. For 2, rotors were (when he first got the block) shiny clean. And, the externals were clean enough to eat off of, and exhibited paint like a reman would. This, however was NOT a mazda reman...doesnt look like it ever was. Most remans have a tag on the front cover (the last 3 years or so anyway), a mazda sticker on the oilpanm, and red paint on the tension bolt heads, this engine has none of those.
The only identifying marks on it is some engraved scribble on the rear rotorhousing below the plugholes. Ive looked at it from all angles and have no CLUE what it is, or even what language it could be. I joked with buttmill that Osama built his engine.
This engine had USED 100k+ mile apex seals. They are stock mazda 3pc seals that could come from any core engine out there. The pic above shows the wear on the apex corner piece...when disassembling a core, you can pull out one of these, and get a quick gauge on the amount of seal wear in the engine. Since the corner piece forms a perfect point when brand new, any flat edge represents wear...so, the wider the flat edge, the more wear. The comparison pic above shows a corner piece with a DOCUMENTED 24k miles (an FD reman water seal core I tore down) versus Jacob's apex corner piece..obviously MUCH more wear there. THis is the single most disgusting part of this whole motor. Despite all the other problems, if it had new apex seals, it'd still be running *decently* right now. Apex seals can be had for as little as $175 plus shipping these days. There is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON to EVER reuse apex seals in a rebuild...unless they have, say, 20,000 documented miles, or something on them. At a certain point, they are worn too much to break in to a different set of housings, or make even useable compression.
Both rotors were previously in engines that ate apex seals and so they both had scratches, scars, and out of spec seal slots (hand filed back out). Both rotors, all 6 grooves. Now, this isn't such a terrible thing, in fact I've done it myself a few times when I had to save a rotor. The problem lies in the USED 100k+ mile apex seals. IF you have a seal groove a little bit uneven, and put in new 2pc seals, then it's gonna work just fine for at least a few years, the seal is stable and tall enough to maintain it's position. These people used stock 3pc seals, and the top piece was worn down thin enough that it just wiggled around inside the (widened) groove. IT would have broken pretty soon anyway.
The front rotorbearing was absolutely shitty...it's excuseable to use a bearing with 30% copper showing or so, but not 100%. This rotor/bearing was installed this way, because 1) there were no metal shavings/particles anywhere else in the engine, and 2) the other 3 bearings looked pretty good. Were it an oil or abuse related failure, one of these would be present.
The rear iron is fine to use, but in another year or 2 that corrosion would probably have eaten the water jacket out and caused the coolant seals to fail.
Both rotorhousings were in engines that had previous apex seal damage. This is very light damage, but undeniable at that. Even though the ridges are in a non-compression forming area of the engine, they affect seal breakin and wear, since the seal still contacts them each rotation...so they can cause low compression by wearing grooves into the seal.
Just like with any 100k+ mile core, the oil seals fell right out upon disassembly. They shouldn't do this, without being worn out. As shown in that pic, they are discolored to brownish, and are almost flat (instead of round), so these were installed this way.
The only parts that could have been new were corner seal plugs, the FD corner seal springs, and the water seals. EVERYTHING else was used, and in poor used condition at that.
Like I told bitchmill, had I bought this as a core for $200, I would have been pissed off. The only real useable parts are the front and intermediate iron.
The only identifying marks on it is some engraved scribble on the rear rotorhousing below the plugholes. Ive looked at it from all angles and have no CLUE what it is, or even what language it could be. I joked with buttmill that Osama built his engine.
This engine had USED 100k+ mile apex seals. They are stock mazda 3pc seals that could come from any core engine out there. The pic above shows the wear on the apex corner piece...when disassembling a core, you can pull out one of these, and get a quick gauge on the amount of seal wear in the engine. Since the corner piece forms a perfect point when brand new, any flat edge represents wear...so, the wider the flat edge, the more wear. The comparison pic above shows a corner piece with a DOCUMENTED 24k miles (an FD reman water seal core I tore down) versus Jacob's apex corner piece..obviously MUCH more wear there. THis is the single most disgusting part of this whole motor. Despite all the other problems, if it had new apex seals, it'd still be running *decently* right now. Apex seals can be had for as little as $175 plus shipping these days. There is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON to EVER reuse apex seals in a rebuild...unless they have, say, 20,000 documented miles, or something on them. At a certain point, they are worn too much to break in to a different set of housings, or make even useable compression.
Both rotors were previously in engines that ate apex seals and so they both had scratches, scars, and out of spec seal slots (hand filed back out). Both rotors, all 6 grooves. Now, this isn't such a terrible thing, in fact I've done it myself a few times when I had to save a rotor. The problem lies in the USED 100k+ mile apex seals. IF you have a seal groove a little bit uneven, and put in new 2pc seals, then it's gonna work just fine for at least a few years, the seal is stable and tall enough to maintain it's position. These people used stock 3pc seals, and the top piece was worn down thin enough that it just wiggled around inside the (widened) groove. IT would have broken pretty soon anyway.
The front rotorbearing was absolutely shitty...it's excuseable to use a bearing with 30% copper showing or so, but not 100%. This rotor/bearing was installed this way, because 1) there were no metal shavings/particles anywhere else in the engine, and 2) the other 3 bearings looked pretty good. Were it an oil or abuse related failure, one of these would be present.
The rear iron is fine to use, but in another year or 2 that corrosion would probably have eaten the water jacket out and caused the coolant seals to fail.
Both rotorhousings were in engines that had previous apex seal damage. This is very light damage, but undeniable at that. Even though the ridges are in a non-compression forming area of the engine, they affect seal breakin and wear, since the seal still contacts them each rotation...so they can cause low compression by wearing grooves into the seal.
Just like with any 100k+ mile core, the oil seals fell right out upon disassembly. They shouldn't do this, without being worn out. As shown in that pic, they are discolored to brownish, and are almost flat (instead of round), so these were installed this way.
The only parts that could have been new were corner seal plugs, the FD corner seal springs, and the water seals. EVERYTHING else was used, and in poor used condition at that.
Like I told bitchmill, had I bought this as a core for $200, I would have been pissed off. The only real useable parts are the front and intermediate iron.
07-23-04, 02:51 PM
#22
I work at Atkins Rotary as the sales and shipping and we only parts that are up to Mazda spec. That is not our engine!
1. Your short piece of the apex seal is a stock Mazda short tip. We use our own seal that is a long tip in all rebuilds.
2. We would never put out a rotor with a bearing that bad. Bearings are $12 and not hard at all to change. If a rotor is bad we replace it, we warrenty these engines for a reason. We warrenty them because we know the parts that we put inside are good, and will last a very long time. Obvioulsy that bearing is bad, it would have been changed.
3. The Oil control rings rubber insert is a Mazda silicone seal. We at Atkins have not used those seals for 15 years! Our oil control rings are black on both the smaller and larger control rings.
4. I would really like you to prove to all these people that it really is our engine by taking a picture of were the dowl pin goes through the rotor housing so that we can see our engine number on it. Because from these pictures this lookes like a very used engine that you are "claiming" is our engine.
5. Why didn't you contact us if it was our engine with only 2000 miles on it. That is why we have a warrenty so that if there is a problem we can fix it, and make it right. The carbon on the face of the rotor says that there are a few more miles than 2000 though.
1. Your short piece of the apex seal is a stock Mazda short tip. We use our own seal that is a long tip in all rebuilds.
2. We would never put out a rotor with a bearing that bad. Bearings are $12 and not hard at all to change. If a rotor is bad we replace it, we warrenty these engines for a reason. We warrenty them because we know the parts that we put inside are good, and will last a very long time. Obvioulsy that bearing is bad, it would have been changed.
3. The Oil control rings rubber insert is a Mazda silicone seal. We at Atkins have not used those seals for 15 years! Our oil control rings are black on both the smaller and larger control rings.
4. I would really like you to prove to all these people that it really is our engine by taking a picture of were the dowl pin goes through the rotor housing so that we can see our engine number on it. Because from these pictures this lookes like a very used engine that you are "claiming" is our engine.
5. Why didn't you contact us if it was our engine with only 2000 miles on it. That is why we have a warrenty so that if there is a problem we can fix it, and make it right. The carbon on the face of the rotor says that there are a few more miles than 2000 though.
07-23-04, 03:00 PM
#23
this is not an atkins motor.
it was originally thought to be an atkins motor, the vendor thought it was an atkins motor, we later found out it was not. so i didnt even bother with any kind of warranty inquiry.
it was originally thought to be an atkins motor, the vendor thought it was an atkins motor, we later found out it was not. so i didnt even bother with any kind of warranty inquiry.
Last edited by jacobcartmill; 07-23-04 at 03:06 PM.
07-23-04, 03:35 PM
#24
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
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Originally Posted by Molotovman
Shane at RotaryWorks really ripped you off man. Puts his nuts in a vice. Get him for calling that an Atkins Reman.
07-23-04, 03:35 PM
#25
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who built the motor and claimed it good?? i wonder, i have friends who use a person or two mentioned, and would like to steer them clear of a rip off!!!! are all places in jax?