T2 Swap doesn't start =(
03-31-09, 12:28 AM
#1
Rotary Turbo
Thread Starter
T2 Swap doesn't start =(
I have a 88 n/a with S5 t2 swap, using s4 t2 electronics, no emissions, no resistor relay, also Im using the n/a harness.
My car only cranks but does not start.
I have searched and did what I had found,
I checked for the proper way to connect the fuel lines, they are correct, fuel in to the pulsation damper on the primary rail and and out the FPR from the secondary rail.(yes this JDM engine has the fpr on the top rail).
Then checked for fuel flow jumping the two pin check connector and fuel pump is working on the ON position, so you can hear the fuel flowing thru the rails.
I also checked for spark and that checked out OK. also it does have compression.
Then I bought a can of starting fluid and the engine started up until it ran out of fluid (I didn't sprayed the whole can), So at least I know that the engine starts.
Also tried it with both S4 t2 and n/a ECUs and still same issues.
Took spark plugs out and they do not smell like fuel at all.
What Im thinking its definitely a fuel problem, How do I check the injector to see if they have voltage or to see if the ECU is even controlling the injector grounds. can it also be the main relay since I believe thats were the injectors get + signal?
My car only cranks but does not start.
I have searched and did what I had found,
I checked for the proper way to connect the fuel lines, they are correct, fuel in to the pulsation damper on the primary rail and and out the FPR from the secondary rail.(yes this JDM engine has the fpr on the top rail).
Then checked for fuel flow jumping the two pin check connector and fuel pump is working on the ON position, so you can hear the fuel flowing thru the rails.
I also checked for spark and that checked out OK. also it does have compression.
Then I bought a can of starting fluid and the engine started up until it ran out of fluid (I didn't sprayed the whole can), So at least I know that the engine starts.
Also tried it with both S4 t2 and n/a ECUs and still same issues.
Took spark plugs out and they do not smell like fuel at all.
What Im thinking its definitely a fuel problem, How do I check the injector to see if they have voltage or to see if the ECU is even controlling the injector grounds. can it also be the main relay since I believe thats were the injectors get + signal?
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03-31-09, 12:57 PM
#8
Rotary Turbo
Thread Starter
I was reading this post by Hailers
No. Don't rewire anything. Just put the key to ON and pull the small plug off the ECU. Then key to ON and see if there's batt voltage at each of the injector wires. They are light green, light green/black, light green/red, light green/white.
They all should have batt voltage with the key to ON.
You said you have spark so I assume the ECU grounds are good. But while your there at the ECU small plug, see if the pure black wires are grounded or not. Should read 1-2 ohms. Key to OFF when you check for ohms on those pure black wires.
Actually in your first post you indicated you had power and gnd at the ECU. So maybe the above is redundant.
You should hear fuel flow all the time thru the rails if the key is ON and the yellow fuel pump check connector is jumpered.
You can use a common LED to tell if the injectors are pulsing. The positive lead of the LED to a batt source like the black/white wire on the far left of the small ECU plug. Then the negative LED lead to one of the primary injector wires. Like the light green wire. Then as you crank the engine the LED will go on/off, proving the ECU is pulsing a ground to the injector.
Or pull the plugs off the coil assy's. Then attach your spare CAS to the plug that goes on the engines CAS. Key to ON. Spin the spare CAS with your fingers. You should be able to hear the fuel injectors clicking. You don't spin the starter when doing this, just key ON and spin the bottom gear of the CAS and listen. If you hear clicking, the ECU is opening and shutting the injectors.
I checked for voltage at the small ecu plug and on all injectors I got 12.12V with the key in the ON position, so Im asuming that the wiring is right and that the main relay its doing its job. correct me if Im wrong. Also I checked the two black wires on the same plug and I got .1 Ohms.
No. Don't rewire anything. Just put the key to ON and pull the small plug off the ECU. Then key to ON and see if there's batt voltage at each of the injector wires. They are light green, light green/black, light green/red, light green/white.
They all should have batt voltage with the key to ON.
You said you have spark so I assume the ECU grounds are good. But while your there at the ECU small plug, see if the pure black wires are grounded or not. Should read 1-2 ohms. Key to OFF when you check for ohms on those pure black wires.
Actually in your first post you indicated you had power and gnd at the ECU. So maybe the above is redundant.
You should hear fuel flow all the time thru the rails if the key is ON and the yellow fuel pump check connector is jumpered.
You can use a common LED to tell if the injectors are pulsing. The positive lead of the LED to a batt source like the black/white wire on the far left of the small ECU plug. Then the negative LED lead to one of the primary injector wires. Like the light green wire. Then as you crank the engine the LED will go on/off, proving the ECU is pulsing a ground to the injector.
Or pull the plugs off the coil assy's. Then attach your spare CAS to the plug that goes on the engines CAS. Key to ON. Spin the spare CAS with your fingers. You should be able to hear the fuel injectors clicking. You don't spin the starter when doing this, just key ON and spin the bottom gear of the CAS and listen. If you hear clicking, the ECU is opening and shutting the injectors.
03-31-09, 02:33 PM
#9
Super Raterhater
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No suction on the AFM = no fuel injection! I've had cars with such a large leak that they wouldn't start at all unless I pushed the AFM door in by hand and kind of played with it while cranking and pushed it in while it was idling. Usually was either bad injector seals, disconnected/broken vac line somewhere, or a TID that was damaged.
03-31-09, 02:41 PM
#10
HAILERS
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I'd go with the SonicRat above. Sounds like the Main Relay is doing fine and you have voltage to the ECU...which in turn Should mean the ECU is putting out spark and fuel injector pulses.
After doing the SonicRat part, try buying a can of starter fluid and spray for only two seconds into the afm's filter or the snorket that leads to the afm. Then try starting and see if you get a sound from the engine (start attempt sound).
If you get a chance, go pull the plug off the boost sensor. See if there is 4.5 to 4vdc on the BROWN/WHITE wire in the plug with key ON. Should be there. If it's there, then the ECU has the ability to make spark and fuel injector pulses.
After doing the SonicRat part, try buying a can of starter fluid and spray for only two seconds into the afm's filter or the snorket that leads to the afm. Then try starting and see if you get a sound from the engine (start attempt sound).
If you get a chance, go pull the plug off the boost sensor. See if there is 4.5 to 4vdc on the BROWN/WHITE wire in the plug with key ON. Should be there. If it's there, then the ECU has the ability to make spark and fuel injector pulses.
03-31-09, 02:45 PM
#11
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He mentioned he already tried that, which was why I was thinking vacuum leak or some other fault with the AFM, as it seems that it's not injecting enough. You know I can't recall if I've ever tried starting the car without the pressure sensor vacuum line connected, would it being plugged into a wrong source have any effect on starting? It's been way way too long since I've had a stock car to play with!
03-31-09, 10:06 PM
#12
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Well........I guess I'll have to learn to read and understand better. Darn it.
I suggested looking at the brown/white wire at the boost sensor to see if it has the approx 5vdc ref voltage the ECU produces to make the computer work.
The boost sensor has zip to do with starting. It was just a easy place to look for the ref voltage. Looking at the middle plug on the ECU is another place but harder to access. Pin 2A I think. Brown/white wire.
That brown/white wire goes to several sensors. TPS, boost sensor, afm ATP sensor etc. IF one finds voltage waaay lower than 4.5 vdc, that means the ECU can't produce spark or fuel injector action.
OOOps. Now that I write that I realise he has spark. He said so in the first post.
To see if the injectors are pulsing do the following: Buy a LED light from Radio Shack. Put the Red wire of the LED to the black/white wire on the far left of the small ECU plug. Put the yellow(whatever color) wire into the back of one of the primary injector wires in the small plug.
Then key ON and go to start. The LED should blink when the starter is turning over. Proving the ECU is pulsing a Ground to the primary injector(s).
LED lights cost but a buck and change. Never use a Test LIght doing this.
In fact, the LED will give off a weak blink just by putting the key to ON. Just one weak blink. But to really see if the injectors are pulsing a gnd, hold the key to STart.
IF the LED blinks.........the fuel rails are not plumbed right. How? Got me. Starts with starter fluid. Gotta be fuel plumbed wrong.
I can post a crude picture of the LED light on the small plug of the ECU tomorrow if needed.
I suggested looking at the brown/white wire at the boost sensor to see if it has the approx 5vdc ref voltage the ECU produces to make the computer work.
The boost sensor has zip to do with starting. It was just a easy place to look for the ref voltage. Looking at the middle plug on the ECU is another place but harder to access. Pin 2A I think. Brown/white wire.
That brown/white wire goes to several sensors. TPS, boost sensor, afm ATP sensor etc. IF one finds voltage waaay lower than 4.5 vdc, that means the ECU can't produce spark or fuel injector action.
OOOps. Now that I write that I realise he has spark. He said so in the first post.
To see if the injectors are pulsing do the following: Buy a LED light from Radio Shack. Put the Red wire of the LED to the black/white wire on the far left of the small ECU plug. Put the yellow(whatever color) wire into the back of one of the primary injector wires in the small plug.
Then key ON and go to start. The LED should blink when the starter is turning over. Proving the ECU is pulsing a Ground to the primary injector(s).
LED lights cost but a buck and change. Never use a Test LIght doing this.
In fact, the LED will give off a weak blink just by putting the key to ON. Just one weak blink. But to really see if the injectors are pulsing a gnd, hold the key to STart.
IF the LED blinks.........the fuel rails are not plumbed right. How? Got me. Starts with starter fluid. Gotta be fuel plumbed wrong.
I can post a crude picture of the LED light on the small plug of the ECU tomorrow if needed.
04-01-09, 11:05 AM
#13
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Use a LED light as shown in the jpg. Only one needed. Bare the ends of its two wires so you can shove the wire in the back of the plug where the BLACK/WHITE and the Light Green wire are in the small plug. Key to ON.
If the light stays ON all the time when you put the key to ON, then you have the wires of the LED in the wrong places. Swap them around. Key to ON. Light will barely blink once as the key is put to ON.
Then crank the engine over with the starter. LIght should blink each time the ECU pulses, proving the ECU is not bad and is indeed pulsing the injector.
If the light stays ON all the time when you put the key to ON, then you have the wires of the LED in the wrong places. Swap them around. Key to ON. Light will barely blink once as the key is put to ON.
Then crank the engine over with the starter. LIght should blink each time the ECU pulses, proving the ECU is not bad and is indeed pulsing the injector.
04-01-09, 12:15 PM
#14
Rotary Turbo
Thread Starter
Ok this morning, I checked for the ref voltage at the boost sensor and i got 4.9 or so, so I just swaped the turbo boost sensor for the n/a one and then tried to started again, after it felt like it did I when back to the engine and took the leading spark plug from the front rotor and it poured fuel as i was taking it out
, then the rear rotor and that one was dry, after cranking and taking spark plugs off I thought that it was flooded, so when cranking i press the pedal all the way and it did started but i think only on the front rotor, i was running for a good min with me holding the pedal almost half way, then i decided to turn it off because since I only saw fuel at the front rotor and Im premixing, the rear rotor wasn't getting lubricated. after being happy I decided to started again and it didn't, checked for fuel at the from rotor again and now it was dry. so back to the same situation. I will try the leds tomorrow.
, then the rear rotor and that one was dry, after cranking and taking spark plugs off I thought that it was flooded, so when cranking i press the pedal all the way and it did started but i think only on the front rotor, i was running for a good min with me holding the pedal almost half way, then i decided to turn it off because since I only saw fuel at the front rotor and Im premixing, the rear rotor wasn't getting lubricated. after being happy I decided to started again and it didn't, checked for fuel at the from rotor again and now it was dry. so back to the same situation. I will try the leds tomorrow.
04-01-09, 04:56 PM
#16
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AFM's themselve have nothing to do with STARTING the engine. See the graph attached.
The ECU ignores the afm at any speed below 500 rpm. It uses an internal fuel map inside the ECU (duh, internal) plus it also uses in conjunction the water thermo sensor on the back of the water pump housing and the rpm (CAS input=RPM, same thing).
Once the engine is over 500rpm the AFM is used for fuel delivery.
The engine sounds a lot like what Sonic Rat mentioned..........a very large air leak somewhere.
But I'd try the LED light tomorrow on BOTH of the primary wire on the small ECU plug, as described in my other post above. Maybe for some reason the rear primary isn't being powered (but you said all injector wires at the ECU had batt power) or isn't being pulsed a ground by the ECU.
On a series four I've encountered large air leaks from.......the brake boost line being off at the back of the throttle body (shame on me)......by the air line from the BAC not being attached to the turbo outlet duct (shame again on me).........by the turbo inlet duct being cracked (shame on someone else).......by one of the two smaller lines on the intercooler being off ( yeah, shame on me).......by the checkvalve/hose on the back of the turbo inlet duct being off (grinch that stole Christmas left it off)..........by the blowoff valve on the back of the turbo inlet duct being left off. Stuff like that.
Hope the rear rotor has compression. Do a finger check of the rear vs the front rotors. Lower sparkplugs out........finger over one hole while cranking........move finger to the other sparkplgu hole........crank engine over............compare results. One vs the other. Should be the same amount of air pushing your finger off the hole in both places. Cheap checkout. Takes but twenty minutes.
The ECU ignores the afm at any speed below 500 rpm. It uses an internal fuel map inside the ECU (duh, internal) plus it also uses in conjunction the water thermo sensor on the back of the water pump housing and the rpm (CAS input=RPM, same thing).
Once the engine is over 500rpm the AFM is used for fuel delivery.
The engine sounds a lot like what Sonic Rat mentioned..........a very large air leak somewhere.
But I'd try the LED light tomorrow on BOTH of the primary wire on the small ECU plug, as described in my other post above. Maybe for some reason the rear primary isn't being powered (but you said all injector wires at the ECU had batt power) or isn't being pulsed a ground by the ECU.
On a series four I've encountered large air leaks from.......the brake boost line being off at the back of the throttle body (shame on me)......by the air line from the BAC not being attached to the turbo outlet duct (shame again on me).........by the turbo inlet duct being cracked (shame on someone else).......by one of the two smaller lines on the intercooler being off ( yeah, shame on me).......by the checkvalve/hose on the back of the turbo inlet duct being off (grinch that stole Christmas left it off)..........by the blowoff valve on the back of the turbo inlet duct being left off. Stuff like that.
Hope the rear rotor has compression. Do a finger check of the rear vs the front rotors. Lower sparkplugs out........finger over one hole while cranking........move finger to the other sparkplgu hole........crank engine over............compare results. One vs the other. Should be the same amount of air pushing your finger off the hole in both places. Cheap checkout. Takes but twenty minutes.
04-05-09, 09:47 AM
#20
Rotary Turbo
Thread Starter
great news, I checked for pulses with the led and they were pulsating, then I did the test thats in the FSM page 4A-70, then the rear injector wasn't injecting fuel so I just pressed on the tip and it was stuck, after retesting it did sprayed fuel. Put everything back together and it started on the first crank. Its kind of hard to started back, I think thats it get flodded really easy. here is a vid that my brother decided to film, do you guys think it sounds healthy?
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04-05-09, 01:53 PM
#21
Super Raterhater
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It doesn't sound 'too' bad, but it does sound rather rough when he gives it gas. You may want to check for vacuum leaks/etc now that it's running and it's easier (just spray all around with a can of carb cleaner). You also might want to do something about the injectors as a whole, if one of them was sticking and having issues theres likely going to be trouble with them all. Throw like 2 cans of injector cleaner at it, check for vacuum leaks, adjust TPS/timing/etc now that its all running and see how it goes.
04-05-09, 10:36 PM
#22
^^ I agree with sonic. Also.. the drawings... lol.. just wow... But it does sound like it's still stuck to me. But check everything, do a poor man compression also. Just to see if the numbers are close to each other. I'll be back in town tuesday, so if you need a hand. Gimmi a jingle.
04-06-09, 10:18 AM
#25
Displacement Replacement
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adjust that thinga majig(variable resistor??) that rich and leans it out, on the passenger strut tower by the pressure sensor.... turn it towards the "L" to lean it out a bit and i bet your car will idle and run more smooth, sounds like its idling a bit rich
if you had just used the N/A one with its setting THIS IS YOUR PROBELM, just adjust it till you get a smooth idle
also just to loosen eveything up pull all your sparkplugs,and EGI fuses out and about 1oz of oil through the primary sparkplugs holes and crank it over for a bit to work it all through and clean it out nice and good and let the oil work its way into the seals if anythings the littlest bit stuck it'll work it free, (I swear by this method).....put the plugs back in should right up after.....since you removed your OMP you'll have to make sure its still workin within spec and maybe recalibrate it
if you had just used the N/A one with its setting THIS IS YOUR PROBELM, just adjust it till you get a smooth idle
also just to loosen eveything up pull all your sparkplugs,and EGI fuses out and about 1oz of oil through the primary sparkplugs holes and crank it over for a bit to work it all through and clean it out nice and good and let the oil work its way into the seals if anythings the littlest bit stuck it'll work it free, (I swear by this method).....put the plugs back in should right up after.....since you removed your OMP you'll have to make sure its still workin within spec and maybe recalibrate it