rx-7s rock

damn I wish I found this thread sooner! I want a TT!!! My 86 base is slow, and a supercharger would rule! I understand how this is going to work, and am very excited to see it working in a car. I'll test it in my car if that's what it has to come to. A cheap supercharger, and can't forget the intercooler. I think I need one of those too, because my rex gets a bit on the hot side sometimes. Not overheating, but the temp gauge scares me sometimes. I want to buy a TT! I'm a customer waiting in line.

Blue94

That has to be one of the strangest, and most genius turbines I've ever seen. Using a TT in a turbo/super application would make for one hell of an RX...Esp. if it ran all the time, as opposed to the WOT that some people were talking about. Count me in...

MazdaRx7Racer4Life

any updates frank? what have you come up with so far and have you made any decisions as to the beta testers? Also the discounts for the tt yahoo group and the rx7 forum. Just keep me posted.

poor college student

after reading all this stuff, i don't know if i could afford it, but hell, i'm def. interested too

$100T2

iTrader: (1)

Sign me up for one.

FrankGermano

Sorry that I haven't been keeping active on watching the posts on this thread. I HAVE been busy working on the supercharger application, however. My partner and I have done some "tinkering" with the basic layout and components necessary to bolt the unit under the hood of the RX-7 and fit in the air inlet system and have it all work and look good. The supercharger, or rather the Tesla based CMP (Centrifugal Molecular Pump) can be designed very quickly. It seems that it is going to fit, and using the custom programming that I am already running from my IBM ThinkPad, we can control it pretty easily. First attempt - I found out (AGAIN - Damn it!!!) that you can't shut off this car without warming it up and expect it to start again. Can we say FLOODED! This time it took me THREE go-arounds with the "pull the spark plugs...pull the fuses...run out the gas...pour in ATF...put the plugs back in...start the car" crap. This is something that someone should find a cure for. Three times doing that is a pain. Anyway, we ARE working on the supercharger and I will keep all of you posted. BTW: 8 psi is more than enough when we are dealing with a Tesla-type unit. Ther AIRFLOW is the key to making the Wankel rotary engine really start performing. At this point, I do not believe that anything more that a fuel pump and regulator will be required, as we are not going to exceed Mazda specs on overloading the internals of the Wankel. Naturally, everyone WILL have to have a free-flow exhaust system to handle the increase, but, that's one of the first things everyone should have done to try and improve performance, as it is. Keep watching this thread for updates as I have them, and thanks for all the interest in International Turbine And Power.

Frank

$100T2

iTrader: (1)

I want 17 to 20 psi. Will I be able to get that from this?

Gab88na

anti flood module
http://www.our.net.au/~pnt/afm/rx7_RX7.html

Evil Aviator

In alphabetical order: AEM, Apexi, Autronic, Electromotive, EMS, Haltech, Link, Microtech, Motec, SDS, Wolf.

Alternate ghetto mod: Kill switch for the fuel pump.

Um, so how exactly do you increase the airflow into a positive-displacement engine without increasing the boost? I haven't been reading the news lately, and just wanted to know if Boyle's Law is still valid.

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

You raise the VE.

Evil Aviator

How does a supercharger raise VE?

Liquid Anarchy

iTrader: (2)

With the different compression ratios of different series rotary engines...

S4 N/A 9.4:1
S4 TII 8.5:1
S5 N/A 9.7:1
S5 TII 9.0:1

Will there need to be 4 different designs made?

(Kindof an info post, if he hadn't found the compression ratios for the various models/series yet)

scathcart

What is with you guys wanting these sky-high boost numbers?

It's not gonna be fun when all the threads pop up with "I just laid my e-shaft out on the road, what do i do now".

Are you aware how serious 20 psi is? What is all involved on a turbo engine to safely and relaibly produce that, when it already ahs an engine and drivetrain to support it.

6-8psi seems right to me.

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

quote-"Naturally, everyone WILL have to have a free-flow exhaust system to handle the increase, but, that's one of the first things everyone should have done to try and improve performance, as it is."

This quote does mention increasing VE w/ freeflow (or possibly scavenging?) exhaust.

Really I was just answering your question about increasing airflow w/ out raising boost. Do you really think Boyle's Law is valid in a dynamic system? I think it is for static systems.

Evil Aviator

So the supercharger will come in a kit with a special exhaust system? How about a new TB, PP housings, high-flow air filter, etc?

As for Boyle's Law not being valid... please just tell me where is all that extra airflow going to go? The engine's volume isn't going to expand like a balloon, LOL. So what happens to all that extra air?

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

So the supercharger will come in a kit with a special exhaust system?

I have no idea what he has planned.

How about a new TB, PP housings, high-flow air filter, etc?

Sounds like it could help VE to me?

As for Boyle's Law not being valid... please just tell me where is all that extra airflow going to go? The engine's volume isn't going to expand like a balloon, LOL. So what happens to all that extra air?

Same engine w/ higher VE due to changes in the engine's peripheral systems will flow more intake and EXHAUST. What am I missing?

Like I said I answered your question- Quote-"Um, so how exactly do you increase the airflow into a positive-displacement engine without increasing the boost? I haven't been reading the news lately, and just wanted to know if Boyle's Law is still valid."

Answer- increase VE...

FrankGermano

Hey guys, I'm trying to keep this as simple as possible and design something that the "average" RX-7 owner can install without doing thousands upon thousands of dollars in 1.) high performance engine mods, or a totally new engine to handle the boost 2.) Can be easily installed into the engine bay with little technical knowledge 3.) will add a significant performance increase to either a stock N/A OR a turbocharger RX-7 4.) keep the cost of the system down.

With that being stated, IF someone specifically wants a supercharger designed for pure high performance use, it can and will be possible to do so with very little mods to the basic system. Again, what is a Tesla PUMP? It is a high performance, simple, bladeless disk unit that - compared to anything that is out there conventionally (like impellor, compression/piston, screw type pumps) just simply has the capacity for moving a higher volume or fluid/gas than anything else in it's comparitive size/HP rating and range. You want boost? Hell, I can give you well over 4,000 psi if that's the case. IT's been done already.

Ya...I have seen the posts of people wanting high compression ratios - upwards to 20psi...well start running special race gasoline for starters, and have extensive ingition mods or be ready to have the Wankel hit "diesel" mode and burn up, or just blow all the internal seals. You hit around 14:1 ratios and you really have some serious HP gains...that's why I am leaning towards around 8psi total boost for starters. This whole unit - to give you some idea of the "power" available through a Tesla-type bladeless pump and the volume of air it will move - is only going to be 3 1/2 - 4" diameter and contain appr. 10 disks - about the size of a standard coffee mug with the case. It's a trade-off of compact size and increasing RPM's of the unit, OR going to something around a 12-15" diameter unit (around the size of the standard aircleaner assembly on older cars) and have appr. 3-4 disks inside and keep the RPMs down to sub-10,000 RPM range. The more surface area - the lower the RPMs necessary to move a given volume of air at a given compression. Last time - read the history of the design of the unit at http://www.frank.germano.com/tesla_turbine.htm .

As for Boyles Law and VE...what is the Wankel engine? Not too much different (in action) than any other internal combustion engine. It's ingenious - and problematic at the same time, and took one heck of allot of engineering to make it work. A charge of air and fuel in, compression, combustion and exhaust, with energy being transfered to the shaft. IC. This is NOT a turbine, and no where near as efficient. I still say that running IC engines in vehicles is just a big waste of energy - run electric drive...drive a generator with an IC...cut fuel consumption by 2/3...recharge by reactive breaking, solar, the IC...run hydrogen fuel...but...that's not going to happen until the infrastructure can support the superior technology (which has been around for over one hundred years - but - I'll stay off that soapbox for now).

So, what we are really doing is simply increasing the amount of "air" and subs. the fuel, into the Wankel with an increase in compression/psi to give a more dense air/fuel charge. The result is basically an increase in available "energy" in the same space previously. I.e. more HP available in the same engine. Now, that's a big simplification, but it is essentially correct.

If this was going on a I.C. 350 Chevy Engine - no problem...I am still experiancing a learning curve with the Wankel and its associated response to boost and internal pressure, exhaust, control systems and the like. Also, I am doing the engineering (which we would normally charge $250.00 per/hour in engineering time alone to any customer) on my own time and out of my own pocket, until I proove the validity of this project to my partners with ITP. Mazda is of little help and/or interest, as I have yet recieved no response to my emails regarding technical issues. Go figure. This system would probably retro to their RX-8 and leave the competition in the dust. I'll keep everyone posted to progress as I have it. Keep the posts and the comments comming, whether positive or negative - I am certainly not a "know-it-all" by any means, and I can easily go with a better idea.

Frank

CrackHeadMel

iTrader: (2)

Wow, ive seen this thread pop up ontop of the list a few times now and am glad i have finaly read though the entire thing

i would be intreasted in this if it could act like a supercharger and not the "only on at WOT" idea

as for controling it, from what i understand your going to have a chip or something of the like controling it, would this be "tunable"? from what i understand, the only things you can control on this unit is its rpm, say someone had a standalone ems like haltech wolf etc, would there be some way you can use the pwm outputs to control it ?

if this project continues on the positive path ive seen so far, i think ill ditch the idea the massive turbo'd idea i had for my 87 se, and complete the t2 driveline swap, and look into one of these TT's to power my beast

-Jacob

FrankGermano

Thanks for the post, Jacob. That is my one tiny little goal. I want to give the "old" RX-7 community a simple add-on unit that will be contolled from inside the cockpit, minimal electronics, low cost, bolt right in to existing engine components, and give a considerable performance/HP increase. It's definately the only way I'll make any money off the project, because, short of full-blown race applications, no one is going to pay upwards of 8-10,000 dollars...but...I'm betting most would pay between 1,200 - 1,500 dollars for a superior bolt on simple system. Besides that, I'm sure there are a number of people that will want to donate their RX-7's for the Beta testing that will have to be performed, as I only have one (so far!), and we will need documented test results and safety figures before we can release it to the public.

Frank

CrackHeadMel

iTrader: (2)

i would donate my mazda to beta testing, but im in the mists of puting a driveline in my car, and its far from running, (no engine, tranny, rear end, half way done on 5lug) but if i suddenly am able to be a part of this project and there is still a need i would love to be a part of it, i just signed up to the yahoogroup mailing list and wasted my entire webdesign class to read the webpages you linked describing the histroy of the bladeless disk.

well, i really should be doing my work so im off

-Jacob

(woohho.. 787 posts!, i just like that #)

FrankGermano

To "Gab88N/A...just for the simple fact that you turned me on to this website/company for the flooding problem and the "fix" (http://www.our.net.au/~pnt/afm/rx7_RX7.html )...you are going to get any and all my services with this supercharger that I can throw at you. This was the most valuable info I've gotten to date. With a full-blown team of mechanics and engineers at my disposal, do you think it's at all fun to be pulling spark plugs out and going through that whole "no start proceedure" when you're in a dress suit?! I've just ordered the part! Thanks again.

Frank

FrankGermano

To "CrackheadMel"...thanks for going over the website. Now, don't get me started on what we could do with an Implosion/vortex engine...We've based the company around inventions from two men: Nikola Tesla, and Viktor Schauberger. So far...we've concentrated on Tesla...read up on what Schauberger did, and you'll flip! http://www.frank.germano.com/viktorschauberger3.htm . An implosion drive supercharger for the RX-7...naaaa...it'd rip the Wankel appart with the boost. Think of what Schauberger invented as "putting a tornado in a box". We are working on that very product, though, for commercial and industrial large-scale power generating applications.

Frank

FoXX

Surely you're going to have to upgrade the fuel system of a N/A before adding boost.. new higher flowing injectors which means some sort of fuel computer.. although I think you could put in some stock TII injectors and fuel pump.
How hot is the air coming out of this thing? Im guessing an intercooler will also be needed.. and how about knock sensing / timing in case it starts to ping? The stock pressure sensor is also going to have a spack since it can only detect up to ~3psi.. then you need a new exhaust system, preferably a higher flow intake.. and some sort of blow-off / air bypass valve so the engine doesnt overpressurise..
The poor old N/A is gonna have bits comin off it everywhere.. and I doubt it would cost any less than a total TII engine conversion. oh and dont the 5th/6th ports open at a certain pressure on s5's? could cause some probs there.

However, putting it on a TII is an entirely different story since its designed for boost.

$100T2

iTrader: (1)

scathcart, just because you're fine with 6-8 doesn't mean some of us don't want more. I know everything that the amount of boost I want to run needs, and just because I want it to be able to produce those numbers doesn't mean I will be running it at that all the time. What would you rather have, a system that can support 17 to 20 that you can run at 12-14 all day easily, or a system that puts out 6-8, but you can't increase it? Since this won't be driven off the exhaust, I can set it for whatever I want, and when the desire warrants it, I can crank it up. That is why I want a system capable of those numbers.

yearrgh

Calm down people, the first step is to make it work. Then you can always make it bigger. My stock turbo is pretty much the same as the turbo on a monster diesal from a tugboat or something, the only real difference is size. I say start small, prove the concept and its validity for this application, then you can make it bigger. as for control, if it's being run of an electric motor then its real easy to control the amount of boost through the current sent to the motor