Starting with a clean slate: S4 Turbo II upgrade path
10-06-15, 12:42 PM
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Starting with a clean slate: S4 Turbo II upgrade path
My 88 t2 has 75k miles, 6k on mazdatrix rebuild, and is begging to go faster.
I have a budget of around $1000 a year, and want a 300 HP daily driver to take to Hallet raceway once every couple of months. My question is how much can I change without having to mod the ECU? (Which seems to be where it gets pricey)
I heard that a full exhaust, ported wastegate, and an FCD are a good place to start, without having to upgrade fuel system or ECU yet? If that is true, what else can I begin to upgrade before having to go standalone?
I have a budget of around $1000 a year, and want a 300 HP daily driver to take to Hallet raceway once every couple of months. My question is how much can I change without having to mod the ECU? (Which seems to be where it gets pricey)
I heard that a full exhaust, ported wastegate, and an FCD are a good place to start, without having to upgrade fuel system or ECU yet? If that is true, what else can I begin to upgrade before having to go standalone?
10-06-15, 02:47 PM
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Did the motor get any porting during it's rebuild? Has anything been done to the car yet, i.e. removed emissions, fuel pump rewire, replaced vacuum lines, or even all the little stuff that needs refreshing?
I'm actually in the same boat as you at the moment. I have an 87' TII with 62K on it and a fresh rebuild (small street port) from Banzai-Racing with less than 100 miles on it. I am also looking to make mine into a 300 HP daily driver. What has cost me the most so far is all of the little nickel and dime stuff, well, on these cars its more like $50 and $100 stuff!
That is the place to start for a daily driver though.
Starting with things like the window switch relay mod to save your window switches and a great time to add one touch windows for a nice modern convenience. Head lamp and windshield wiper switches like to go out on these old things too, usually a cheaper thing to do if you have the tools already. Shifter bushings are old and cracked usually, a new set gives a much nicer feel to your shifts. A fire extinguisher is always a nice addition to any rotary vehicle!
To get into the power stuff: Start with a nice boost/vac gauge and water temp gauge. I used a company called Retro Spec for a dual A-pillar gauge pod, you could try them if nowhere else.... I can upload some pictures of the ones I got if you want. They aren't horrible quality, but they aren't the best I've seen either. They were also 4 weeks late with very crappy customer service. Anyway.... Back to the upgrades, oil catch can for the PCV system, oil baffle plate, MAKING SURE ALL YOUR GROUNDS ARE GOOD (Old cars with old wiring, best mod you can do to a stock RX-7. No need to run new ones, just make sure the ones that are there are good)
A new clutch is always nice before putting more power down. For 300 HP I wouldn't suggest anything over stock or slightly better, I went with the most basic HDSS clutch from ACT. Port your wastegate as much as you can or get an S5 Turbo and Manifold and you won't have to worry about it. Koyo Radiator is always a nice addition with silicon hoses, of course. Cone filter instead of the restrictive air box once you have that wastegate sorted out. Then you can do full exhaust or go the cheaper to begin with route, like I did, and go for a down pipe and pre-silencer combo from Racing Beat.
I know I'm leaving a lot of stuff out here too, there are just too many different ways to go about it. Don't let these cars fool you! They are ALWAYS expensive!
I'm actually in the same boat as you at the moment. I have an 87' TII with 62K on it and a fresh rebuild (small street port) from Banzai-Racing with less than 100 miles on it. I am also looking to make mine into a 300 HP daily driver. What has cost me the most so far is all of the little nickel and dime stuff, well, on these cars its more like $50 and $100 stuff!
That is the place to start for a daily driver though. Starting with things like the window switch relay mod to save your window switches and a great time to add one touch windows for a nice modern convenience. Head lamp and windshield wiper switches like to go out on these old things too, usually a cheaper thing to do if you have the tools already. Shifter bushings are old and cracked usually, a new set gives a much nicer feel to your shifts. A fire extinguisher is always a nice addition to any rotary vehicle!
To get into the power stuff: Start with a nice boost/vac gauge and water temp gauge. I used a company called Retro Spec for a dual A-pillar gauge pod, you could try them if nowhere else.... I can upload some pictures of the ones I got if you want. They aren't horrible quality, but they aren't the best I've seen either. They were also 4 weeks late with very crappy customer service. Anyway.... Back to the upgrades, oil catch can for the PCV system, oil baffle plate, MAKING SURE ALL YOUR GROUNDS ARE GOOD (Old cars with old wiring, best mod you can do to a stock RX-7. No need to run new ones, just make sure the ones that are there are good)
A new clutch is always nice before putting more power down. For 300 HP I wouldn't suggest anything over stock or slightly better, I went with the most basic HDSS clutch from ACT. Port your wastegate as much as you can or get an S5 Turbo and Manifold and you won't have to worry about it. Koyo Radiator is always a nice addition with silicon hoses, of course. Cone filter instead of the restrictive air box once you have that wastegate sorted out. Then you can do full exhaust or go the cheaper to begin with route, like I did, and go for a down pipe and pre-silencer combo from Racing Beat.
I know I'm leaving a lot of stuff out here too, there are just too many different ways to go about it. Don't let these cars fool you! They are ALWAYS expensive!
10-06-15, 03:10 PM
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I have been meaning to do the grounds, there are some idiosyncrasies I suspect are tied to that whole issue. I have read Aaron cake's write up a couple of times but can't find the time or energy to begin... Its intimidating to an electrical newbie like me =/
The whole car is stock, including the engine. Everything works thank God, but the drivers window starting to make some popping noises while going down, I'll look into the relay switch you mentioned.
Thanks
The whole car is stock, including the engine. Everything works thank God, but the drivers window starting to make some popping noises while going down, I'll look into the relay switch you mentioned.
Thanks
10-06-15, 04:44 PM
#5
Whoever told you a FCD was a good place to start is trapped in the 90's. They're an old school and messy way of cranking up the boost, and have gone the way of the dodo except for those who either don't listen or are too cheap to do an ECU.
You will not get anywhere near 300whp without an ECU of some sort, it will be required to handle any of the supporting mods you're going to need. If your budget is EXTREMELY tight, you can do an RTEK. If you want to do yourself a favor, blow this year and half of next years budget on an Adaptronic PnP or something of the sort.
You will not get anywhere near 300whp without an ECU of some sort, it will be required to handle any of the supporting mods you're going to need. If your budget is EXTREMELY tight, you can do an RTEK. If you want to do yourself a favor, blow this year and half of next years budget on an Adaptronic PnP or something of the sort.
10-07-15, 08:05 AM
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300hp is about double the stock hp. to double the stock hp, means that a lot of things need attention. i'm actually building one right now, and i'll run down the mod list.
exhaust: this is the easy one. you need a 3" from the turbo back, most would buy an RB system, as its quiet, and bulletproof. just doing this on its own, hp goes from ~150rwhp, to about 200, which feels huge.
fuel pump: we're going to run a supra pump, because its quiet. i think most would run a walbro. both work, the walbro is cheaper. if you stopped with the exhaust, i'd recommend an FD pump, as around 200rwhp, you want a little more pump, and the FD pump is exactly that.
injectors: for 200hp, stock is fine. for 300hp, you need more or larger ones. for 300rwhp you need something on the order of 900ccx4 (or 2x550 and 2x1300), give or take.
radiator: at the track you'll want something bigger. on the street the stock cooling system works rather well. we're running a koyo on this one.
intercooler: you need something bigger. for a sub 300hp car the Japanese favor a larger top mount, as that way the radiator and oil cooler aren't blocked by an intercooler, so its easier to cool. the current GReddy kit, and its ebay clones require a lot of cutting to install, which isn't ideal either. the HKS type S didn't, and the older GReddy kits didn't need much cutting. not sure what IC we're running yet, car is all cut up for a GIANT one, so maybe that.
ecu: you need something. the stock ecu is ok up to 200rwhp, maybe a little more, but after that you really want more fuel and less timing. its a little unfortunate that the ECU was never cracked here, the Japanese can fully tune the stock ecu, and basically they run up to 500hp with a chip, and usually more stock injectors, rather than larger ones. its simpler as you don't need to rewire half the car, which is just a bunch of added failure points. not sure what we're doing on this car yet, step 1 is to smog it, so some stock ecu needs to be there.
turbo: the stock turbo is too small for 300hp. i think most people would do a BNR, as it bolts on. we're going to run a full T4, probably a 60-1.
exhaust: this is the easy one. you need a 3" from the turbo back, most would buy an RB system, as its quiet, and bulletproof. just doing this on its own, hp goes from ~150rwhp, to about 200, which feels huge.
fuel pump: we're going to run a supra pump, because its quiet. i think most would run a walbro. both work, the walbro is cheaper. if you stopped with the exhaust, i'd recommend an FD pump, as around 200rwhp, you want a little more pump, and the FD pump is exactly that.
injectors: for 200hp, stock is fine. for 300hp, you need more or larger ones. for 300rwhp you need something on the order of 900ccx4 (or 2x550 and 2x1300), give or take.
radiator: at the track you'll want something bigger. on the street the stock cooling system works rather well. we're running a koyo on this one.
intercooler: you need something bigger. for a sub 300hp car the Japanese favor a larger top mount, as that way the radiator and oil cooler aren't blocked by an intercooler, so its easier to cool. the current GReddy kit, and its ebay clones require a lot of cutting to install, which isn't ideal either. the HKS type S didn't, and the older GReddy kits didn't need much cutting. not sure what IC we're running yet, car is all cut up for a GIANT one, so maybe that.
ecu: you need something. the stock ecu is ok up to 200rwhp, maybe a little more, but after that you really want more fuel and less timing. its a little unfortunate that the ECU was never cracked here, the Japanese can fully tune the stock ecu, and basically they run up to 500hp with a chip, and usually more stock injectors, rather than larger ones. its simpler as you don't need to rewire half the car, which is just a bunch of added failure points. not sure what we're doing on this car yet, step 1 is to smog it, so some stock ecu needs to be there.
turbo: the stock turbo is too small for 300hp. i think most people would do a BNR, as it bolts on. we're going to run a full T4, probably a 60-1.
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10-07-15, 05:29 PM
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That's what I was thinking. An rtek should get you there
Almost forgot, FCD does not up the boost, it allows your vehicle to boost past (8psi?) without fuel cut to the (rear?) rotor. Rtek has it in the added chip
Almost forgot, FCD does not up the boost, it allows your vehicle to boost past (8psi?) without fuel cut to the (rear?) rotor. Rtek has it in the added chip
Last edited by blackball7; 10-07-15 at 10:52 PM.
10-08-15, 02:58 AM
#9
Rotaries for life'
Here's the cheap low down (go ebay to get the most for the least, just because it's not name brand doesn't mean it won't work):
Radiator $140
Bigger Primaries and secondaries (keep an eye out in the selling section of rx7club) $250
Cheap Ebay turbo $200, this is okay because you'll build a hybrid so you're only using the good parts. Also, make sure you read the description and get something bigger than 54mm/70mm the bigger the better.
Exhaust $250 (again Ebay single exhaust)
Ebay cone filter and adapter $20
Walbro 255lph $80
Manual boost controller $20
Finally you have 2 choices:
Apexi SAFC $100-$200 and fuel cut defender $$$ depends on the brand
OR
Rtek ecu $200-$300 (be patient and keep and again keep an eye out on rx7club).
Now this is literally the cheapest way to get 300 hp. and I can't guarantee reliability but as long as you do everything right and you're not stupid then things should hold together. Good luck.
Radiator $140
Bigger Primaries and secondaries (keep an eye out in the selling section of rx7club) $250
Cheap Ebay turbo $200, this is okay because you'll build a hybrid so you're only using the good parts. Also, make sure you read the description and get something bigger than 54mm/70mm the bigger the better.
Exhaust $250 (again Ebay single exhaust)
Ebay cone filter and adapter $20
Walbro 255lph $80
Manual boost controller $20
Finally you have 2 choices:
Apexi SAFC $100-$200 and fuel cut defender $$$ depends on the brand
OR
Rtek ecu $200-$300 (be patient and keep and again keep an eye out on rx7club).
Now this is literally the cheapest way to get 300 hp. and I can't guarantee reliability but as long as you do everything right and you're not stupid then things should hold together. Good luck.
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sabor88 (02-12-20)
10-08-15, 04:56 AM
#10
I'm building, or built (needs a tune) my 87. Running apexi power fc, BNR Stage 4, 750/750 injectors, racing beat Rev exhaust, Corksport radiator, rx7 store FMIC. I went with an rtek 1.7 or .8 at first cant remember which, hated it. My shops didn't even want to touch it as te tuning process would have been alot in labor... I have the power fc emulator and datalogit for my laptop now with the power fc, should make it very easy for my tuner.
These are all things I've gathered over the years. Started with the exhaust and yes an FCD. That was great fun as it sat, but always wanted more lol. The two most expensive parts will be the ECU and an exhaust, if you go the way of RB, which you should.
I don't know my hp numbers yet as it still needs to get on the rollers but I'd like to think somewhere near 300.
These are all things I've gathered over the years. Started with the exhaust and yes an FCD. That was great fun as it sat, but always wanted more lol. The two most expensive parts will be the ECU and an exhaust, if you go the way of RB, which you should.
I don't know my hp numbers yet as it still needs to get on the rollers but I'd like to think somewhere near 300.
10-08-15, 12:48 PM
#11
i can pretty much guarantee that most anyone who is running an Rtek 2.x and dealt with a real standalone would ditch it the first chance they got. so why start with it in the first place?
hybrid or T4 turbo(stock turbo won't get you to 300)
fuel pump
injectors
turboback exhaust
intake TID
wideband
tune up
standalone(you gotta pay to play the game)
boost controller
possibly a spare motor or 2 for in case you blow one, otherwise professional tuning fees of ~$500 and you may still want a spare motor.
these are realistic expectations, i spent at least $5k before my car was beyond the OPs expected target and i did all the work myself. you can get to about 230 without nearly as much upgrading with an Rtek 1.7/1.8 chip and a piggyback AFC but you'd still be into it for a couple grand, and honestly works as well or better than an Rtek 2.x. once you begin to expect over 250whp then things get a lot more expensive.
if you want anything reliable then going cheap will just shoot you in the foot, the volumetric AFM system was ok in the 80's but we're half way through the 2010's.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 10-08-15 at 01:06 PM.
10-08-15, 12:49 PM
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Here's the cheap low down (go ebay to get the most for the least, just because it's not name brand doesn't mean it won't work):
Radiator $140
Bigger Primaries and secondaries (keep an eye out in the selling section of rx7club) $250
Cheap Ebay turbo $200, this is okay because you'll build a hybrid so you're only using the good parts. Also, make sure you read the description and get something bigger than 54mm/70mm the bigger the better.
Exhaust $250 (again Ebay single exhaust)
Ebay cone filter and adapter $20
Walbro 255lph $80
Manual boost controller $20
Finally you have 2 choices:
Apexi SAFC $100-$200 and fuel cut defender $$$ depends on the brand
OR
Rtek ecu $200-$300 (be patient and keep and again keep an eye out on rx7club).
Now this is literally the cheapest way to get 300 hp. and I can't guarantee reliability but as long as you do everything right and you're not stupid then things should hold together. Good luck.
Radiator $140
Bigger Primaries and secondaries (keep an eye out in the selling section of rx7club) $250
Cheap Ebay turbo $200, this is okay because you'll build a hybrid so you're only using the good parts. Also, make sure you read the description and get something bigger than 54mm/70mm the bigger the better.
Exhaust $250 (again Ebay single exhaust)
Ebay cone filter and adapter $20
Walbro 255lph $80
Manual boost controller $20
Finally you have 2 choices:
Apexi SAFC $100-$200 and fuel cut defender $$$ depends on the brand
OR
Rtek ecu $200-$300 (be patient and keep and again keep an eye out on rx7club).
Now this is literally the cheapest way to get 300 hp. and I can't guarantee reliability but as long as you do everything right and you're not stupid then things should hold together. Good luck.
A LOT of misinformation here...
Parts quality matters!!
Turbo - Yeah, if you don't mind building your own turbo... BNR does great turbo rebuilds, S5 is the better one to have rebuilt (no external twin scroll crap) but an S4 will work all the same.
Exhaust parts from Racing Beat have been built specifically for and tested thoroughly on rotaries. You can't beat tried and true performance along with exact fit. In the end, you'll probably save money on exhaust by going with the right stuff, the first time and you'll get better power out of it. Ebay crap is just that, crap.
Adapter for a cone filter can be picked up at pretty much any advance auto or auto zone. The cone filter should NOT be from ebay. K&N is truly one of the best performing filters out there and it can be cleaned! This will give you the best performance and save you money in the long run.
Walbro is good, though unless it's used it will be more like $120 shipped. FD fuel pump works and I believe there are a few others that can work as well.
Apexi SAFC I/II will NEVER get you to 300HP with a good tune. This is for minor adjustments and should only be used as such. It would be a decent staple after a few upgrades to power, until you get a proper ECU.
Rtek will get you there, though you will probably end up tuning it yourself or paying out the *** to get it done. I've not heard of too many people that tune them. If you send your ECU in to have it chipped, it's $150 installed for 1.8 and $449 for the 2.1. If your application would be better served by the 2.1 stage, you would be better off spending a little extra money and going with the Power FC. Either way, you still have to pay to have it tuned.
The Apexi Power FC is probably the best option as it is easy to tune, comes with a safe base map to get you to a tuner, and if you get the right harness I believe it is plug and play. I've seen them as low as $700 for most everything, if not everything that you need.
Without a large budget to do everything at the same time or even month by month your biggest worry should be keeping the car in optimal working condition. With these almost 30 year old cars, that can be a challenge, especially on a budget like yours. Problems build up and can become overwhelming on a short budget. Plan ahead, do the small stuff first, and BE PATIENT. $1000/year will not get you to 300 HP very quickly if you want a DD out of it, probably a couple years out. Don't forget the supporting modifications as well, 300 HP is useless if you can't stick to the road, turn, and stop.
WyomingTII, he is looking for a DAILY DRIVER. By definition a DD is going to need to be reliable.
10-08-15, 01:12 PM
#13
A LOT of misinformation here...
Parts quality matters!!
Turbo - Yeah, if you don't mind building your own turbo... BNR does great turbo rebuilds, S5 is the better one to have rebuilt (no external twin scroll crap) but an S4 will work all the same.
Exhaust parts from Racing Beat have been built specifically for and tested thoroughly on rotaries. You can't beat tried and true performance along with exact fit. In the end, you'll probably save money on exhaust by going with the right stuff, the first time and you'll get better power out of it. Ebay crap is just that, crap.
Adapter for a cone filter can be picked up at pretty much any advance auto or auto zone. The cone filter should NOT be from ebay. K&N is truly one of the best performing filters out there and it can be cleaned! This will give you the best performance and save you money in the long run.
Walbro is good, though unless it's used it will be more like $120 shipped. FD fuel pump works and I believe there are a few others that can work as well.
Apexi SAFC I/II will NEVER get you to 300HP with a good tune. This is for minor adjustments and should only be used as such. It would be a decent staple after a few upgrades to power, until you get a proper ECU.
Rtek will get you there, though you will probably end up tuning it yourself or paying out the *** to get it done. I've not heard of too many people that tune them. If you send your ECU in to have it chipped, it's $150 installed for 1.8 and $449 for the 2.1. If your application would be better served by the 2.1 stage, you would be better off spending a little extra money and going with the Power FC. Either way, you still have to pay to have it tuned.
The Apexi Power FC is probably the best option as it is easy to tune, comes with a safe base map to get you to a tuner, and if you get the right harness I believe it is plug and play. I've seen them as low as $700 for most everything, if not everything that you need.
Without a large budget to do everything at the same time or even month by month your biggest worry should be keeping the car in optimal working condition. With these almost 30 year old cars, that can be a challenge, especially on a budget like yours. Problems build up and can become overwhelming on a short budget. Plan ahead, do the small stuff first, and BE PATIENT. $1000/year will not get you to 300 HP very quickly if you want a DD out of it, probably a couple years out. Don't forget the supporting modifications as well, 300 HP is useless if you can't stick to the road, turn, and stop.
WyomingTII, he is looking for a DAILY DRIVER. By definition a DD is going to need to be reliable.
Parts quality matters!!
Turbo - Yeah, if you don't mind building your own turbo... BNR does great turbo rebuilds, S5 is the better one to have rebuilt (no external twin scroll crap) but an S4 will work all the same.
Exhaust parts from Racing Beat have been built specifically for and tested thoroughly on rotaries. You can't beat tried and true performance along with exact fit. In the end, you'll probably save money on exhaust by going with the right stuff, the first time and you'll get better power out of it. Ebay crap is just that, crap.
Adapter for a cone filter can be picked up at pretty much any advance auto or auto zone. The cone filter should NOT be from ebay. K&N is truly one of the best performing filters out there and it can be cleaned! This will give you the best performance and save you money in the long run.
Walbro is good, though unless it's used it will be more like $120 shipped. FD fuel pump works and I believe there are a few others that can work as well.
Apexi SAFC I/II will NEVER get you to 300HP with a good tune. This is for minor adjustments and should only be used as such. It would be a decent staple after a few upgrades to power, until you get a proper ECU.
Rtek will get you there, though you will probably end up tuning it yourself or paying out the *** to get it done. I've not heard of too many people that tune them. If you send your ECU in to have it chipped, it's $150 installed for 1.8 and $449 for the 2.1. If your application would be better served by the 2.1 stage, you would be better off spending a little extra money and going with the Power FC. Either way, you still have to pay to have it tuned.
The Apexi Power FC is probably the best option as it is easy to tune, comes with a safe base map to get you to a tuner, and if you get the right harness I believe it is plug and play. I've seen them as low as $700 for most everything, if not everything that you need.
Without a large budget to do everything at the same time or even month by month your biggest worry should be keeping the car in optimal working condition. With these almost 30 year old cars, that can be a challenge, especially on a budget like yours. Problems build up and can become overwhelming on a short budget. Plan ahead, do the small stuff first, and BE PATIENT. $1000/year will not get you to 300 HP very quickly if you want a DD out of it, probably a couple years out. Don't forget the supporting modifications as well, 300 HP is useless if you can't stick to the road, turn, and stop.
WyomingTII, he is looking for a DAILY DRIVER. By definition a DD is going to need to be reliable.
bingo
sure you can get parts for cheap but i guarantee you nothing will bolt on right, easily or at all without fabrication. you will also need to tweak parts to work how they should be working, sometimes paying less isn't worth the risk of potentially costing several thousand repairing the engine.
there is doing things once and there is doing things 5 times in order to learn how to do it the correct way, not everyone here has the skills to do everything the correct way the first time. i know for many things i had to experiment and i had plenty of mechanical experience going in.
you also have to pay attention when buying on ebay and have to be experienced in what you are buying and exact wording. alot of the knockoffs are gone now, but some still exist.
i tuned one Rtek 2.1, it took hours... paying someone $125+ per hour to dick with a substandard ECU isn't a good tradeoff.
$1000 a year isn't a good number for a reliable, daily+track driven 300whp car. realistically you should forget that pipe dream because you wouldn't be able to afford to repair the engine in the event of failure and NOONE can guarantee that won't happen. sorry, but if you came into my shop and asked me how to reliably build a 300whp car on that budget, i'd tell you to quit wasting my time and point you to the door. maybe in 3 years you could have worked out something but you'd have an inoperable car for most of that time, if i couldn't do it with that budget then i'm pretty sure you couldn't.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 10-08-15 at 01:21 PM.
10-08-15, 05:03 PM
#14
Rotaries for life'
A LOT of misinformation here...
Parts quality matters!!
Turbo - Yeah, if you don't mind building your own turbo... BNR does great turbo rebuilds, S5 is the better one to have rebuilt (no external twin scroll crap) but an S4 will work all the same.
Exhaust parts from Racing Beat have been built specifically for and tested thoroughly on rotaries. You can't beat tried and true performance along with exact fit. In the end, you'll probably save money on exhaust by going with the right stuff, the first time and you'll get better power out of it. Ebay crap is just that, crap.
Adapter for a cone filter can be picked up at pretty much any advance auto or auto zone. The cone filter should NOT be from ebay. K&N is truly one of the best performing filters out there and it can be cleaned! This will give you the best performance and save you money in the long run.
Walbro is good, though unless it's used it will be more like $120 shipped. FD fuel pump works and I believe there are a few others that can work as well.
Apexi SAFC I/II will NEVER get you to 300HP with a good tune. This is for minor adjustments and should only be used as such. It would be a decent staple after a few upgrades to power, until you get a proper ECU.
Rtek will get you there, though you will probably end up tuning it yourself or paying out the *** to get it done. I've not heard of too many people that tune them. If you send your ECU in to have it chipped, it's $150 installed for 1.8 and $449 for the 2.1. If your application would be better served by the 2.1 stage, you would be better off spending a little extra money and going with the Power FC. Either way, you still have to pay to have it tuned.
The Apexi Power FC is probably the best option as it is easy to tune, comes with a safe base map to get you to a tuner, and if you get the right harness I believe it is plug and play. I've seen them as low as $700 for most everything, if not everything that you need.
Without a large budget to do everything at the same time or even month by month your biggest worry should be keeping the car in optimal working condition. With these almost 30 year old cars, that can be a challenge, especially on a budget like yours. Problems build up and can become overwhelming on a short budget. Plan ahead, do the small stuff first, and BE PATIENT. $1000/year will not get you to 300 HP very quickly if you want a DD out of it, probably a couple years out. Don't forget the supporting modifications as well, 300 HP is useless if you can't stick to the road, turn, and stop.
WyomingTII, he is looking for a DAILY DRIVER. By definition a DD is going to need to be reliable.
Parts quality matters!!
Turbo - Yeah, if you don't mind building your own turbo... BNR does great turbo rebuilds, S5 is the better one to have rebuilt (no external twin scroll crap) but an S4 will work all the same.
Exhaust parts from Racing Beat have been built specifically for and tested thoroughly on rotaries. You can't beat tried and true performance along with exact fit. In the end, you'll probably save money on exhaust by going with the right stuff, the first time and you'll get better power out of it. Ebay crap is just that, crap.
Adapter for a cone filter can be picked up at pretty much any advance auto or auto zone. The cone filter should NOT be from ebay. K&N is truly one of the best performing filters out there and it can be cleaned! This will give you the best performance and save you money in the long run.
Walbro is good, though unless it's used it will be more like $120 shipped. FD fuel pump works and I believe there are a few others that can work as well.
Apexi SAFC I/II will NEVER get you to 300HP with a good tune. This is for minor adjustments and should only be used as such. It would be a decent staple after a few upgrades to power, until you get a proper ECU.
Rtek will get you there, though you will probably end up tuning it yourself or paying out the *** to get it done. I've not heard of too many people that tune them. If you send your ECU in to have it chipped, it's $150 installed for 1.8 and $449 for the 2.1. If your application would be better served by the 2.1 stage, you would be better off spending a little extra money and going with the Power FC. Either way, you still have to pay to have it tuned.
The Apexi Power FC is probably the best option as it is easy to tune, comes with a safe base map to get you to a tuner, and if you get the right harness I believe it is plug and play. I've seen them as low as $700 for most everything, if not everything that you need.
Without a large budget to do everything at the same time or even month by month your biggest worry should be keeping the car in optimal working condition. With these almost 30 year old cars, that can be a challenge, especially on a budget like yours. Problems build up and can become overwhelming on a short budget. Plan ahead, do the small stuff first, and BE PATIENT. $1000/year will not get you to 300 HP very quickly if you want a DD out of it, probably a couple years out. Don't forget the supporting modifications as well, 300 HP is useless if you can't stick to the road, turn, and stop.
WyomingTII, he is looking for a DAILY DRIVER. By definition a DD is going to need to be reliable.
10-08-15, 05:58 PM
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Ok, I'll cover this one more time... DAILY DRIVER MEANS RELIABLE. Period. Reliable means it's not going to be cheap. There are countless threads on here about making these cars fast on a budget, that is NOT what is going on here. Yes, he has a small budget. No, that does not mean it can't be done in due time. You even stated the way you went was not RELIABLE, with a blown motor in 15K miles.
Again with the exhaust, Daily Driver. Racing Beat is by far the best for sound, performance, fit, and price for, at least the turbo'd FC DD. What other company has done such thorough testing on exhaust for these vehicles?
He said $1000/year. Not $1000 for the life of the car. Like I said in my last post, it's doable. It will take time and should be properly planned alongside regular maintenance and other supporting modifications. Bit by bit, he could make it there in about 3 or 4 years with gradually increased power and handling performance along the way. Not a bad way to do it might I add, let's you know how each modification changes the car and helps you figure out what to do to get the car to run and drive the way that you like it best.
Again with the exhaust, Daily Driver. Racing Beat is by far the best for sound, performance, fit, and price for, at least the turbo'd FC DD. What other company has done such thorough testing on exhaust for these vehicles?
He said $1000/year. Not $1000 for the life of the car. Like I said in my last post, it's doable. It will take time and should be properly planned alongside regular maintenance and other supporting modifications. Bit by bit, he could make it there in about 3 or 4 years with gradually increased power and handling performance along the way. Not a bad way to do it might I add, let's you know how each modification changes the car and helps you figure out what to do to get the car to run and drive the way that you like it best.
10-09-15, 06:33 PM
#16
Rotaries for life'
And I'll say it one more time, I WAS SIMPLY STATING THE ABSOLUTE CHEAPEST WAY. People often underestimate ebay parts. As long as he has a good quality standalone, pretty much the rest could be off of ebay as long as he was careful about what he was buying. Now as far as the turbo goes, ebay is just fine for building a hybrid, as long as you use good quality bearings and seals. The compressor wheel and housing will work reliably, just disassemble the turbo and check everything before you build your hybrid. Now the best way to do an exhaust would be to build his own. 3in all the way back to a 2.5 Y split then two Dynomax Superturbo Mufflers which only cost $45 a piece.
10-09-15, 06:51 PM
#17
not all ebay parts are created equal however. there's at least a dozen different chinese T04 turbo manufacturers, all in varying quality, all using generic pictures, all stating "best quality". it's always a gamble so everyone should also be aware of the quality control issues. there have been cases i have seen cheap turbos used for hybrids, resulting in compression losses when the compressors failed.
i do use turbo rebuild kits off chinese manufacturers and it took some time to find the ones that actually worked with acceptable results. sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you don't.
i've seen intercoolers come with puncture holes in them, radiators with improper mount holes drilled, boost controllers that were held together with superglue. you get the idea.
course it's not really just an ebay issue. that however is a place where you can get a lot of chinese parts competing with name brand stuff and water gets muddied. i am an ebay seller as well, so i hate using such a simple term to dictate quality. there is no real chinese "RX7" parts specific that i have to compete with however, just other rotary specific sellers.
point is, sometimes you have to write out the risk vs cost. it's easy to overlook that a boost controller could potentially blow up an engine, a radiator could overheat one, or a turbo could munch it from the inside out. sometimes paying less is worth the cost of losing an engine in the long run in the name of modifying parts to work, cheaply, sometimes it is not.
i do use turbo rebuild kits off chinese manufacturers and it took some time to find the ones that actually worked with acceptable results. sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you don't.
i've seen intercoolers come with puncture holes in them, radiators with improper mount holes drilled, boost controllers that were held together with superglue. you get the idea.
course it's not really just an ebay issue. that however is a place where you can get a lot of chinese parts competing with name brand stuff and water gets muddied. i am an ebay seller as well, so i hate using such a simple term to dictate quality. there is no real chinese "RX7" parts specific that i have to compete with however, just other rotary specific sellers.
point is, sometimes you have to write out the risk vs cost. it's easy to overlook that a boost controller could potentially blow up an engine, a radiator could overheat one, or a turbo could munch it from the inside out. sometimes paying less is worth the cost of losing an engine in the long run in the name of modifying parts to work, cheaply, sometimes it is not.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 10-09-15 at 07:04 PM.
10-09-15, 07:15 PM
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I really don't think this guy knows what a daily driver is...
If I go over this again I will feel like I'm just beating a dead horse
If I go over this again I will feel like I'm just beating a dead horse
Last edited by blackball7; 10-09-15 at 07:17 PM.
10-10-15, 12:51 PM
#19
Rotaries for life'
I do know what a daily driver is, I have a 350whp on one built mostly from ebay parts. I've got 90,000 miles on an ebay turbo hybrid. I guess the best way would be to buy a used garrett and just use the wheel and housing off of that. But the exhuast can be cheaper than racing beat and have better performance. Trust me I would know, I have 2 cars with racing beat exhausts on them and a one with a custom exhaust.... Guess which one has better performance. But the radiator and the intercooler are perfectly fine off of ebay. I wonder when you talk down on ebay parts, is your hatred from personal experience or from the rumors you have heard. While we're at it, one human year isn't equivalent to 7 dog years and coffee isn't actually made from a bean it's made from a nut. Point in case is that you should not believe everything you hear.
(because there is no beating a dead horse emoji...)
10-10-15, 01:58 PM
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My 88 t2 has 75k miles, 6k on mazdatrix rebuild, and is begging to go faster.
I have a budget of around $1000 a year, and want a 300 HP daily driver to take to Hallet raceway once every couple of months. My question is how much can I change without having to mod the ECU? (Which seems to be where it gets pricey)
I heard that a full exhaust, ported wastegate, and an FCD are a good place to start, without having to upgrade fuel system or ECU yet? If that is true, what else can I begin to upgrade before having to go standalone?
I have a budget of around $1000 a year, and want a 300 HP daily driver to take to Hallet raceway once every couple of months. My question is how much can I change without having to mod the ECU? (Which seems to be where it gets pricey)
I heard that a full exhaust, ported wastegate, and an FCD are a good place to start, without having to upgrade fuel system or ECU yet? If that is true, what else can I begin to upgrade before having to go standalone?
10-10-15, 04:06 PM
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a 3inch exhaust ,intake, and a fcd should rise the power, i have them on my t2 and it raised boost to 10 psi and sometimes see 11psi, i was told by alot of people on that its very dangerous running over 8psi with a fcd on a stock fuel system because it causes the rear rotor to run lean. id been running 10 psi on a stock fuel system and fcd for a while now and havent had anyproblems my self
basically there is a situation where the stock timing map is really aggressive, Arghx has posted all the timing maps, and the S4 T2 is the most aggressive. look at it compared to the S5 turbo map. the second problem is that the fuel pump is sized to deliver the same cc/min as the injectors. the third problem is that the charging harness has a splice that goes bad, and voltage drops in the car. people band aid it with a bigger alternator, but it only fixes it to a point.
the net net is that if you combine higher boost, aggressive timing, and a fuel pump that doesn't pump as much as it should, you get random engine failure.
the FD fuel pump is a nice fix, as it leaves you with more margin. upping the voltage to the pump, either by fixing the harness, and or running a relay to the pump, also helps.
to go more than that you need to do something with the ECU, the engine will want more fuel somehow (power can't go up by 30%, without some kind of fuel system change), timing is too aggressive, plugs are too hot, etc etc
10-10-15, 04:49 PM
#23
not to mention a nearly 30 year old engine harness.
the stock boost and power levels leave a bit of room for error but even a stock car can blow up. however it usually takes a complete **** to do it, powering through a jerky situation under full power. listen to the engine, if it is telling you it isn't happy then there is a problem. once you start raising power levels you run into situations where there is no sign, just a blown engine, rotaries are THE MOST unforgiving in this respect.
the stock boost and power levels leave a bit of room for error but even a stock car can blow up. however it usually takes a complete **** to do it, powering through a jerky situation under full power. listen to the engine, if it is telling you it isn't happy then there is a problem. once you start raising power levels you run into situations where there is no sign, just a blown engine, rotaries are THE MOST unforgiving in this respect.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 10-10-15 at 04:51 PM.
10-10-15, 05:24 PM
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not to mention a nearly 30 year old engine harness.
the stock boost and power levels leave a bit of room for error but even a stock car can blow up. however it usually takes a complete **** to do it, powering through a jerky situation under full power. listen to the engine, if it is telling you it isn't happy then there is a problem. once you start raising power levels you run into situations where there is no sign, just a blown engine, rotaries are THE MOST unforgiving in this respect.
the stock boost and power levels leave a bit of room for error but even a stock car can blow up. however it usually takes a complete **** to do it, powering through a jerky situation under full power. listen to the engine, if it is telling you it isn't happy then there is a problem. once you start raising power levels you run into situations where there is no sign, just a blown engine, rotaries are THE MOST unforgiving in this respect.
11-24-15, 12:10 PM
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Thanks RE, barks, jd3f, wyoming, for the insight and advice.
I am trying to upgrade little by little and figure it'll take me 2-3 years to reach the goal, with supporting things like tires and reliability mods. I can probably get away with spending more if I have to, just deal with some extra nagging from the old ball and chain.
Question: if I slap on a stage 3 BNR with a boost controller, what are MUST have supporting mods? Walbro, bigger injectors, FMIC, and a standalone ECU?
Or can I do just the turbo, boost controller, and injectors for a modest and safe gain until I can get the Power FC and a professional tune?
I like the Power FC idea eventually, with a quality tune. Maybe by the summer.
I am trying to upgrade little by little and figure it'll take me 2-3 years to reach the goal, with supporting things like tires and reliability mods. I can probably get away with spending more if I have to, just deal with some extra nagging from the old ball and chain.
Question: if I slap on a stage 3 BNR with a boost controller, what are MUST have supporting mods? Walbro, bigger injectors, FMIC, and a standalone ECU?
Or can I do just the turbo, boost controller, and injectors for a modest and safe gain until I can get the Power FC and a professional tune?
I like the Power FC idea eventually, with a quality tune. Maybe by the summer.