beefhole

iTrader: (29)

Didn't read everything, so maybe this was said already.

In 1987, the 182HP Turbo II was the most powerful rotary engine in a production car. I don't think they were exactly going to chance a major HP option if that was their initial best. "OK, we got 182HP, now let's make a 300HP option"

solareon

iTrader: (1)

I don't think they had all the crazy turbos and electronics of today back in the late 80s early 90s. Anybody know when they came out with the ball bearing Garrett turbos?

sharingan 19

iTrader: (16)

Interesting thread.

All the key points have been hit, and there was to way it would have happened, and if Mazda had produced a 25X-3XX hp TII back then, the poor sales (due to sticker shock), resulting in-warranty repairs, law suits, would have left them reeling to the point that we might not have even gotten an S5 never mind an FD.

Its nice to dream though...

2ndgencab

Everyone make mistakes! Including Mazda.

AmviciousRav

iTrader: (5)

dude if you compare cars to the same years the power numbers are really close, the hp game is like computers it doubles every so and so years

(well when I compared them to other F bodys power levels aren't that different except after 1989 then everyone started hitting 250hp plus while mazda stopped at 200...)

in my eyes maybe they offered the car as a tuner car since it is turbo-charged so extracting the potential shouldn't be that hard or too pricey

and I think it also has alot to do with Kansai Engineering or w/e it said in the brochure

daviddeep

iTrader: (4)

It's important to remember that Mazda is a fairly small-volume manufacturer. I think you could argue that the FC product line was already over-diversified and stretched the limited resources Mazda had at their disposal from a standpoint of engineering investment, testing, marketing, etc.

As the FD demonstrated, a higher performance/higher priced car is usually not a volume sales leader. It's an especially tough sell coming from a brand known for thrifty, quirky cars. (Remember the Subaru SVX?) In the 80s, a 300+ horsepower RX-7 that cost another $5000 or so would have appealed to just a fraction of the TII crowd, so how could it have made economic sense for Mazda to build it?

As many others have noted, there would have been more warranty claims with a more heavily boosted engine, Mazda would have had to retrain their mechanics to fix it, etc.

Also fuel economy was a pretty important marketing point when the FC launched in the summer of '85. Making an already thirsty engine thirstier was not something Mazda would have relished.

You could ask the same question in 2010: why doesn't Mazda have a 300 horsepower RX-8, or have serious plans to launch an all-new 300 horsepower halo sports car? Why has development of the 16X stalled? Because Mazda makes way more money selling tons of Mazda 3s, 6s and MX-5s and because they probably don't have it in the budget to develop a more powerful rotary right now.

nillahcaz

iTrader: (2)

No. A clutch has nothing to do with torque or HP output and any "upgrade" would have cost them on the sales floor, A HEAVY fly wheel makes the car have more "torque" ok not true but it is as heavy as it is to help get the car moving from a stop. The heavy flywheel also buffers out bucking, makes the idle better along with other things that give the car the refinement to be sold to the average Joe that wants a sexy fun car.

6) Japan taxes cars on its displacement *why they say its a 1.3L, this and cooling problems is why they cut the 3rotor from the GTUs and 10th AE but was in a Sport Luxury car,* its power bracket *this is in the metric system and the TII was at the top of the bracket* and for only having 2 seats this is why there is the worthless 2+2 option. Remember this is a JDM *Japanese domestic market* car, the tax laws play a big part on how JDM cars are made.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

the ECU technology wasn't an issue, nor the fuel system nor ball bearing turbos(even hybrids make twice the stock HP rating)

the trend has just been a slow one to adapt, if you look at how the engines were when first introduced they had tiny ports and tiny carburetors which over time became larger and replaced by FI which still did the same job. they could have easily cranked out a ton more power even back in the early 70's. i look at my 13B REPU engine and scratch my head because it is the EXACT same engine that people built into 500RWHP FCs short of a few minor changes like nitiride and a turbo.. but porting could have been better for respose and higher compression, etc etc etc.

i just still think they could have done more to promote the engine by pushing it further ahead of the rest. the potential it had and still has is pretty amazing considering the engine design hasn't changed much at all in close to 40 years.

AmviciousRav

iTrader: (5)

Maybe they backed out because everyone believes in that stereotype that rotary is not reliable or does not produce alot of torque

(never really cared about it as long as it's more than a honda)

out of all the turbo rotary ppl I know, they aren't any left except myself...they either went v8 or left FC's all together

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

pff, just wait until i work out a system to get 35MPG AND have 500WHP. no, i'm not joking.

AmviciousRav

iTrader: (5)

ben if you manage to do that on a 2 rotor put me down of one of those

but the most I've seen is about 28mpg and 480 hp

I forgot where I saw it but I saw it on the fourms

most of my buddies that had built t2's only saw maybe 16 mpg and barely made 250 hp (stock turbo and a street port + a rich tune)

it's because of that I stayed stock (and because I don't have the income to support my hp needs)

200 hp and 18/24 mpg isn't that bad =/

synergy7

iTrader: (20)

Real sports car???

They did...

The car is 20 years old don’t compare it to TODAYS standards

More Power = less Reliability
More Power = more Insurance
More Power = More import Taxes
More Power = more warranty claims (back then dealers were selling cars not service plans)

What production car in 1986 (the beginning of the fc run) was making 500hp???

BTW
If the Rx-7 did come with 500hp back in 1986 it would be a world-class collectors car that most people in general could not afford anyway; think BMW M1, Ferrari 512 or Porsche 959... and then add about 50k

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

you still ignored most of what i said. the engines have been fully capable of making the power for a long while and i explained that they have been taking very small steps in tapping the power that was already there. american car manufacturers tried to tap the most of the engines with the limited technology that was there and they did.

i am more questioning the whole timeframe of the rotary engine and not simply when T2's were first introduced. since i am then i would also ask why they chose to do away with turbos on rotaries altogether for a still highly priced "semi sport type car".

farberio

iTrader: (7)

Didn't the FC come around when the Japanese cars had an 'agreement' not to get into a HP war? That would also play a lot into it.

jackhild59

iTrader: (7)

Most of the technique used to make that extra HP is incompatible with attaining/retaining adequate gas mileage.

In early/mid 70's Mazda's entire product line was rotary. The company was pushing the rotary (Boing Boing Boing vs HMMMMM). Gas was cheap, but then came the first Oil Crisis. Then, Mazda got hit with the first EPA gas-guzzler label. Sales plummeted and the company nearly failed.

Japanese companies can not stand to 'Lose Face'.

The incredibly lousy piston car, the GLC (Great LIttle CAr) was Mazda's lifeline to survival. Then the 78 intro of the RX7 and the 79 intro of the (piston powered) 626 saved the company. The company was so humiliated by the Gas Guzzler label and near failure of the company, that they vowed to never have that label again.

Many decisions for USDM cars were heavily influenced by this memory. The small ports, the N/A cars for USDM, the lack of Turbo in the Vert, the lack of rotary power in the Cosmo (929)for USDM, the exotic materials (forged aluminum a-arms, aluminum hood) all stem from Mazda's intent to never never be labeled as a Gas Guzzler.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

we had a chance to talk to koby about this very subject. the FD turbo system was too complicated, most mechanics caused more problems than they solved.

so the rx8 is SIMPLE and non turbo. its actually been this way for a long time, we got the GSL-SE with an NA 13b, and japan got the turbo 12A, in 83-84. why is that you ask? warranty issues, complaints etc etc.


mazda might not sell as many cars TOTAL as toyota, but the miata is the best selling sports car EVER. followed by the FC and the 79-85 rx7, and then the MGB. (i tried searching for a link but the internet is useless here)

the FD in sales numbers, is inconsequential.

iamsisyphus

Insurance. A car that produces twice the horsepower costs way more to insure making the car unaffordable.

2ndgencab

I agree with Karack! 35 mpg and 500 hp in my vert would be all to Kosher! Sign me up!!

nillahcaz

iTrader: (2)

i have the feeling it going to be an LS1 kinda thing to get numbers like that.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

newp

2ndgencab

Karack is the rotor guru in NorCal! Love thy Rotor!

2ndgencab

If i had the cash flow, Id have Karck build me the 7 Mazda should have belt!!

farberio

iTrader: (7)

Interesting to point out, in 72 Mazda started on a new project, X020G, that was intended to compete with the Corvette, Porsche 911, and Jaguar E-Type. Two engines were proposed to power it, a 15A at 135bhp and a 21A targeted at 180hp. (RX-7 (2nd gen book), Yamaguchi, p.196-197)

The project was killed off in in the oil crises.

farberio

iTrader: (7)

And this, no offense, is why Mazda built the car it did.

Hypertek

iTrader: (3)

No one in America would buy it.. Look at 90s japanese sports cars, 300zx TT, 3000gt, Supra TT, cars in their $40k range. Hence these cars died off in the 90s, yet still continued in japan up into the millennium.

Some mazda guys at sevenstock even said the rotaries where never top sellers, but they continue to invest $$$ into further enhancing it.

This thread is funny, just a bunch of people committed to this old car.. lol, thats like going on a starion forum and saying "our cars are great! but why didnt Mitsubishi built a super performance model?". There was NO NEED FOR ONE. This aint no super car manufacture, and they dont race the production chassis in any FIA GT type racing. Hell, the race cars are no where near the production chassis, they dont even have the crummy DTSS suspension lol

Lack of money is why alot of people here swear by their NA S4s cuz its what they got stuck with dreams of turbo power. lol