Side seals stuck! How to get out?
05-16-09, 10:32 PM
#1
Side seals stuck! How to get out?
Ok guys,
I took my old blown s5 na apart. It had blown coolant jackets. I took the rotors and cleaned them and all of the seals and crap pretty much came out no problem. One side still had the side seals on them. I simply sold them as is figuring the guy that got them to reuse them could find a sharp object and simply pry them out, may even be able to reuse them, no malice on my part.
Does this happen and does it ruin rotors? Rotors were otherwise perfect. I know blown apex seals are very common and pretty much ruins the rotor unless you are seriously lucky, but never really heard of "stuck side seals" as a common issue to "ruin" a rotor.
I took my old blown s5 na apart. It had blown coolant jackets. I took the rotors and cleaned them and all of the seals and crap pretty much came out no problem. One side still had the side seals on them. I simply sold them as is figuring the guy that got them to reuse them could find a sharp object and simply pry them out, may even be able to reuse them, no malice on my part.
Does this happen and does it ruin rotors? Rotors were otherwise perfect. I know blown apex seals are very common and pretty much ruins the rotor unless you are seriously lucky, but never really heard of "stuck side seals" as a common issue to "ruin" a rotor.
05-17-09, 10:13 AM
#2
Here's how I do it.
I bought a cheapo flexible putty knife from the local hardware store and used a bench grinder to make a slope on one end to pop the seals out, most often ending up with 1/4" to 1/2" chunks at a time:
[IMG]<a href="http://s159.photobucket.com/albums/t141/jhershey99/?action=view¤t=IMG_1972.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t141/jhershey99/IMG_1972.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>[/IMG] [IMG]<a href="http://s159.photobucket.com/albums/t141/jhershey99/?action=view¤t=IMG_1970.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t141/jhershey99/IMG_1970.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>[/IMG]
The putty knife should be thin and flexible enough to fit in the seal groove. Tap with a small hammer on the backside of the knife where my finger is. This particular one fits perfectly and will stand by itself in the groove:
[IMG]<a href="http://s159.photobucket.com/albums/t141/jhershey99/?action=view¤t=IMG_1969.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t141/jhershey99/IMG_1969.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>[/IMG] [IMG]<a href="http://s159.photobucket.com/albums/t141/jhershey99/?action=view¤t=IMG_1973.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t141/jhershey99/IMG_1973.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>[/IMG]
This is a great tool for cleaning out carbon before fitting new seals. I prefer to lay a new seal into the cleaned groove and use a feeler gauge along side to check the clearance and compare to specs. With practice you can get the seals and carbon out without damaging the rotor. I have done this with many stuck seals with good success.
Stuck side seals are common in engines that have sat for a few years, especially so if the engine suffered a blown coolant seal.
I bought a cheapo flexible putty knife from the local hardware store and used a bench grinder to make a slope on one end to pop the seals out, most often ending up with 1/4" to 1/2" chunks at a time:
[IMG]<a href="http://s159.photobucket.com/albums/t141/jhershey99/?action=view¤t=IMG_1972.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t141/jhershey99/IMG_1972.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>[/IMG] [IMG]<a href="http://s159.photobucket.com/albums/t141/jhershey99/?action=view¤t=IMG_1970.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t141/jhershey99/IMG_1970.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>[/IMG]
The putty knife should be thin and flexible enough to fit in the seal groove. Tap with a small hammer on the backside of the knife where my finger is. This particular one fits perfectly and will stand by itself in the groove:
[IMG]<a href="http://s159.photobucket.com/albums/t141/jhershey99/?action=view¤t=IMG_1969.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t141/jhershey99/IMG_1969.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>[/IMG] [IMG]<a href="http://s159.photobucket.com/albums/t141/jhershey99/?action=view¤t=IMG_1973.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t141/jhershey99/IMG_1973.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>[/IMG]
This is a great tool for cleaning out carbon before fitting new seals. I prefer to lay a new seal into the cleaned groove and use a feeler gauge along side to check the clearance and compare to specs. With practice you can get the seals and carbon out without damaging the rotor. I have done this with many stuck seals with good success.
Stuck side seals are common in engines that have sat for a few years, especially so if the engine suffered a blown coolant seal.
05-17-09, 04:51 PM
#6
Ok this dude is getting on my nerves here, and the only reason I am posting it in this thread as a technical issue is because I want to know how common this is and this isnt that big of an issue.
This guy buys them off of a buy I have in the second gen classifieds section here on the board.
I list them as in great condition as they are clean, not a dent or scratch, especially on the surface of the rotor and apex seal area. I have seen plenty of pics over the years of rotors gouged from blown apex seals, dented from shipping or being beaten the hell out of.
These rotors had none of that so they are in good condition to me.
I sent the rotors with one rotor having the side seals in it still. I figured it wasnt an issue at all. If the guy is competent enough to do a rebuild then removing a few old seals from a rotor in good condition should be no issue.
This guy buys them off of a buy I have in the second gen classifieds section here on the board.
I list them as in great condition as they are clean, not a dent or scratch, especially on the surface of the rotor and apex seal area. I have seen plenty of pics over the years of rotors gouged from blown apex seals, dented from shipping or being beaten the hell out of.
These rotors had none of that so they are in good condition to me.
I sent the rotors with one rotor having the side seals in it still. I figured it wasnt an issue at all. If the guy is competent enough to do a rebuild then removing a few old seals from a rotor in good condition should be no issue.
05-17-09, 04:54 PM
#7
Anyhow,
I wanted to get the guy his stuff the same day he sent me money. I hurried up and wrapped the stuff up, stuck them in a box and shipped them off. He complained to me that the last set he had bought online came dented and beaten with a hammer so they could get the rotors off of the e-shaft.
He is now complaining that having sent him a rotor with side seals that dont simply fall out of the rotor on one side as the same thing and the others he rec'd that had been beaten with a hammer. WTF?
The reason I am asking this is for an education to myself and to make sure that I am not totally being an *** here. I am going to post our email conversation.
I wanted to get the guy his stuff the same day he sent me money. I hurried up and wrapped the stuff up, stuck them in a box and shipped them off. He complained to me that the last set he had bought online came dented and beaten with a hammer so they could get the rotors off of the e-shaft.
He is now complaining that having sent him a rotor with side seals that dont simply fall out of the rotor on one side as the same thing and the others he rec'd that had been beaten with a hammer. WTF?
The reason I am asking this is for an education to myself and to make sure that I am not totally being an *** here. I am going to post our email conversation.
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05-17-09, 04:59 PM
#8
His Email:
Derek, what I’m getting at is that in the 3 years you have been posting to the list, it never occurred to you that having side seal stuck in the rotor would render them unusable, or that the fact that they are stuck at all woulld indicate a problem it that area, such as a deformation of the side seal channel. You described the rotors as in excellent condition, and that the grooves are all in good condition. How can they be in good condition if the seals don’t simply drop out?
Also during our conversation, I specifically mentioned having to send back some rotors because of problems with the side channels, and at that time you didn’t feel it important to mention that seals were stuck and broken off. You honestly don’t think that this would have some bearing on your asking price?
I have to say that I feel you are being less than honorable here. I paid top dollar for a pair of rotors that were supposed to be in excellent condition. Now you have taken my money and left me with dealing with a problem that shouldn’t have existed.
And if this method you describe fails? You will then hole me culpable for the loss of the rotor?
I believe that the misrepresentation of the rotors, whether intentional or through ignorance, would indicate some re-negotiation.
Derek, what I’m getting at is that in the 3 years you have been posting to the list, it never occurred to you that having side seal stuck in the rotor would render them unusable, or that the fact that they are stuck at all woulld indicate a problem it that area, such as a deformation of the side seal channel. You described the rotors as in excellent condition, and that the grooves are all in good condition. How can they be in good condition if the seals don’t simply drop out?
Also during our conversation, I specifically mentioned having to send back some rotors because of problems with the side channels, and at that time you didn’t feel it important to mention that seals were stuck and broken off. You honestly don’t think that this would have some bearing on your asking price?
I have to say that I feel you are being less than honorable here. I paid top dollar for a pair of rotors that were supposed to be in excellent condition. Now you have taken my money and left me with dealing with a problem that shouldn’t have existed.
And if this method you describe fails? You will then hole me culpable for the loss of the rotor?
I believe that the misrepresentation of the rotors, whether intentional or through ignorance, would indicate some re-negotiation.
05-17-09, 05:04 PM
#9
I sent the guy a link to this thread to show him how to remove them because he sent me emails acting like he knew nothing about the issue and if I knew how to remove them. When I sold him the rotors I told him that the apex grooves were in great shape and there was no pitting our gouging on the rotor faces. I didn't think twice about the side seals. All of them had fallen out except for that one side, I was sure with two minutes of work getting the others out wuld be no issue, and certainly were not "deformed" because of their presence.
This is what my response was:
Dude,
I still don't know what "list" you are talking about. I have been posting on the rx7 forum for the last 7 years, not because I am a mechanic with godlike knowledge, but because I usually need some help.
As for the rotors I felt nothing was wrong with them and actually still feel that way and from what I understand the issue is actually quite common and pulling the side seals out is no issue. If two seconds of work and using a little pressure scares you then maybe you should consider ordering a new pair (of rotors) from Mazda which I am sure will be nothing close to the top dollar ($185) you paid me for my used set.
The set you said you had ordered and sent back before mine looked like someone had pounded the rotors off of the e-shaft and dented it with the force of a hammer which of course is just as bad as having side seals that won't simply fall out of the rotor, silly me I should have known that beating the **** out of rotors with a hammer as being the same thing (you never mentioned side seals channels as an issue). As far as I know it was one side of one rotor of the two I sent. I wanted to send them to you the day you sent payment so I didn't bother spending the time to remove them as I figured it was fairly a pedestrian issue especially for someone with rebuild experience.
If you would like to return the rotors for a full refund I have no problem with that as long as they are in the condition I sent them in. I will spend the 30 seconds I should have spent removing the side seals and sell them to someone else who knows the difference between beating a rotor with a hammer and side seals that don't fall out. Thanks-
This is what my response was:
Dude,
I still don't know what "list" you are talking about. I have been posting on the rx7 forum for the last 7 years, not because I am a mechanic with godlike knowledge, but because I usually need some help.
As for the rotors I felt nothing was wrong with them and actually still feel that way and from what I understand the issue is actually quite common and pulling the side seals out is no issue. If two seconds of work and using a little pressure scares you then maybe you should consider ordering a new pair (of rotors) from Mazda which I am sure will be nothing close to the top dollar ($185) you paid me for my used set.
The set you said you had ordered and sent back before mine looked like someone had pounded the rotors off of the e-shaft and dented it with the force of a hammer which of course is just as bad as having side seals that won't simply fall out of the rotor, silly me I should have known that beating the **** out of rotors with a hammer as being the same thing (you never mentioned side seals channels as an issue). As far as I know it was one side of one rotor of the two I sent. I wanted to send them to you the day you sent payment so I didn't bother spending the time to remove them as I figured it was fairly a pedestrian issue especially for someone with rebuild experience.
If you would like to return the rotors for a full refund I have no problem with that as long as they are in the condition I sent them in. I will spend the 30 seconds I should have spent removing the side seals and sell them to someone else who knows the difference between beating a rotor with a hammer and side seals that don't fall out. Thanks-
05-17-09, 06:39 PM
#10
Wow. I hope it works out well for both of you. I can see both sides of the issue. I have found that if I'm completely honest up front when selling an item to someone, even if I had to lower my asking price, there's little chance of it biting me in the *** afterwards, especially if I take the time to pack it extra carefully, to the point of overkill if needed. Best of luck.
05-17-09, 07:08 PM
#11
I packed it fine. I took good pics, apparently never thought side seals weren't an issue. I didnt even bother with trying to pull them out. That is why I wanted to see the technical side of it. He is going to send them back. I am going to spend the 20 seconds to remove them and sell them again.
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