apsolus

iTrader: (2)

my 87's engine is done for. im trying to weigh my options as far as cost, ease and down time. im gonna be working out of my garage which is pretty small with only a couple feet between the walls. my main concerns are time and cost. obviously id like to save money but id also like a nice easy time of it.

would you rebuild yourself or send your motor out and wait for a rebuild to be sent out? what would the cost of sending your motor out and getting another one back from rotory res? what would the cost be to just do it yourself?

AGreen

iTrader: (11)

Do you have the tools to do it? Properly? Torque wrenches, feeler gauges, large breaker bar & pipe extension (flywheel nut), micrometers, calipers, dial indicators? The basic hand tools like sockets, ratchets, wrenches, screwdrivers? I usually am an advocate for doing it yourself, but it's definitely not for everyone.

Cost for doing it yourself:

Used rotor and housing : usually around $100 to $400 depending on condition
Rebuild kit : Around $1000
All the extra stuff you'll probably replace (spark plugs, hoses, belts, t-stat, etc) $200+

Usually builders will post prices on their website. But those prices are generally based on you sending them a rebuildable core, not one with a blown rotor.

midnightbluefc

iTrader: (19)

i thought i would have had the basic tools to do so but u need a big area to work with and patience. like AGreen was saying the list goes on, if your looking for quality and reliability i personally recommend Rotary Evolution in vegas.

SpeedOfLife

iTrader: (16)

I did my first motor in a small one car garage over a couple weeks, however the car sat in a parking lot. My second build I did in a little bit bigger garage with the '7 sharing the room, it took a lot less time since I reused hard seals and I wasn't porting this time. If the garage space is short make sure the car faces the door so you can move an engine lift easily.

apsolus

iTrader: (2)

not to toot my own horn but im a ford diesel master tech so i would think i was capable. Tools are not an issue. so a rebuild kit for a grand plus odds and ends, seems to me its would be so much easier to just pull the motor, send it out and get another one back.

i appologize for not giving all the info, the motor isnt blown just a lack of compression so i would think its perfectly rebuildable.

Derekcat

iTrader: (8)

Well, at the least you can almost certainly reuse:
all three plates, both rotors, eccentric shaft.

You can probably reuse:
oil ring carriers, some side seals, corner seals

You might be able to reuse:
rotor housings, apex seals, springs

Pull it, tear it down, clean everything, and then inspect the parts. If nearly everything is reusable, you'd only be out a water seal kit and some side seals~ $250.

But you're most likely to be out $400-1000 [pick up FD rotor housings, new apex seals, water seal kit, springs, misc others as needed]

Oh and since you have an NA, definitely pick up these: 6-Port Sleeve Inserts (Pair) & pins(2)

Also, if you're reasonably attentive, it's very easy to rebuild a rotary yourself. I built one with [what I now know are] terrible parts, literally on the garage floor and it lasted 3.5 years [water seal groove broke in two places, and a third gave out when cleaning the parts!]
Pickup the Atkins DVD [what I used for the garage floor engine] or watch Pineapple Racing's videos and Aaron Cake's videos. ^_^

K-Tune

iTrader: (26)

If it isn't blown then why is the compression down?

gerald m

I just did my first , no engine stand just a five gallon pail to set the engine on it doesn't take much room ( the pail works great but you probably have a stand ), If your a diesel mechanic you will have the skills .

Just around a 1000 if you don't need any major parts . Atkins seem to be some of the best suppliers as far as pricing goes . Rotary aviation have better than most for apex seals. I used the ra classic in case I decide to go with a bit of nitrous , a little more money but are suppose to be superior for durability . Myself I found it quite enjoyable to do my own little engine following the general rules of rotary rebuilding .

If you decide to send out although there are many places to send them I also would suggest that you talk to Rotary Evolution about doing the job Ben I think is his name . Great guy and very knowledgeable , I don't know him in person but he has helped me tons on things the last couple of years through the forum . haven't seen him around the forum the last few days but he is always in and out .

Aaron Cake has a very good rebuild video on you tube , if you do things the way he suggests it's pretty straight forward . It takes longer to clean the dam parts than it does to rebuild . About the only caution I can think of is to make sure the coolant seal grooves are CLEAN of rust and crap .

AGreen

iTrader: (11)

Oh, well in that case I think you'll be perfectly capable of rebuilding this engine. You have to understand, 99.9% of people that ask about rebuilding engines are fresh out of high school with a McJob and no tools.

I rebuilt my first rotary as an apprentice working at a Dodge dealership. I personally think they're easier than rebuilding piston engines. I've done both quite a few times. After getting the side seal clearances taken care of the actual assembly time takes about an hour. Then the hardest things are getting the end play in spec and torquing down the flywheel nut.

If the compression is just down and not blown, you could possibly get away with keeping everything (rotors, housings, hardware, etc) but if it's really worn out you may experience some chrome flaking on the housings or some excessive apex seal groove clearances, etc. The only way to tell is by tearing it down and inspecting everything.

Goopy Performance can refurbish your rotor housings, and they also sell a kit to re-clearance the apex seal groove to accept slightly thicker apex seals.

Just search around for a rebuild kit. I used Atkins rotary, but there are plenty of places that sell good quality kits to rebuild your engine.

RotaryResurrection

iTrader: (8)

I have never really discouraged people from doing their own rebuilds. But the reality of it is that I see quite a few 1) incomplete projects where someone overestimated their available time or expertise, took it all apart and can't put it back together, and 2) failed rebuild attempts where they managed to get it together but succumbed to one of the major pitfalls of assembly that are not covered well by the FSM. These cars often wind up here on the forum or on craigslist for sale as incomplete projects, or they part out the engine pieces and slap in a V8, or they haul the car to the junkyard or the crusher for whatever they can get when they realize it's unrealistic they'll ever be able to put it back together again.

In fact when I first started years ago it took me a while to get past these pitfalls, and I didn't know about them until I did each one incorrectly, tried to run the engine, then had to go back through it and find out what was wrong.

The other issue is that most people could stand a decent chance of actually taking apart their rotary and reassembling it correctly. The problem comes in that they have never seen any of these parts in person before. They have no idea what they are looking at in terms of condition and wear. They do not know what key areas to inspect. They do not know what is "normal" and what is not. They do not know how much chrome flaking is too much, or how much pitting is too much, or how much bearing wear is too much, etc. This lack of experience judging the condition of parts can be a problem for a DIY rebuilder.

For these reasons I tell people that if you plan to simply walk up, take apart the engine and rebuild it yourself, the odds are not in your favor that you'll get everything right the first time, never having handled or inspected the parts prior. However, if you are present during at least one other rebuild that someone else may be doing, and can watch how the parts are inspected and handled, and how assembly is done, and someone explains everything to you as they go, and you see firsthand how it is done and how the engine runs afterward (so you have an idea as to whether you need to use parts at least as good, or perhaps nicer than what they used) then you could probably do your own the first time and get everything correct.

apsolus

iTrader: (2)

i already bought and installed the racing 6th port sleeves. i cant wait to see how they perform. installed em awhile back but the ports only worked for alittle while until my exhausts right muffler suddenly dropped off the hanger and made a big hole in the exhaust at the catalytic converter once again rendering them useless.

i have seen your thread on rebuilding the engine on the bucket. very cool stuff. Too be honest i dont have anything to prove to myself, i probably could rebuild this engine myself but like a few of you have said i might not know a part is failing and reuse it. If i can have a good fresh rebuild in the car for 1300 bucks and shipping that make edan very happy.

i have listened to what you all have to say and i think ill go ahead and get a rebuild sent to me, besides the parts department at northside ford has a loading dock, which makes shipping items like this much cheaper.

while the engine is away ill have time to replace suspension, brake and interior components. this car is a pile lol

sharingan 19

iTrader: (16)

Wait, your back?!

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

regardless of experience there are many things in these engines you have to be experienced to look for.

i was also a master tech for Dodge for over 10 years and thought i knew it all. it took several attempts to find rather uncommon issues in my first rotary rebuild that many years ago.


many people have had great luck doing their own rebuilds, many have also had very bad luck not knowing what to look for as i mentioned above. one local lost an engine due to an oil pump key dropping out during assembly, another due to poor tuning. handfuls of others started and ran but had other issues crop up later on, any small mistake can cause major problems. one was sent to me a few months ago with a rather small list of problems but each problem can cause major issues, like an apex seal spring shoved under the end of the apex seal, oil seal springs installed in reverse order and parts not cleaned properly.

i have had customers who did their own installs bring their cars by, i have NEVER seen one that was done 100% right.

patience and a larger than stringent budget are what you need. treat this project as if you have never worked on a car before, learning as you go, and you may just get away with it. you may even want to do it twice before seeing if it will run.

i know better now, these cars will bite you in the *** any chance they can get.

RotaryResurrection

iTrader: (8)

Clubuser

I recently did my 1st rebuild. Aside from forgetting to install the lower intake- to- block coolant O-rings, all is well up to know w/~400 miles on it.

Cleaning was the no fun part specially the rotors - time consuming. Hylomar to me was a pain in the *** to apply on the coolant seals. It dries to damn fast so it’s near impossible to spread evenly.

My suggestion if you decide to use Hylomar is to dilute it w/Acetone to a point you can apply it w/a small brush. That is what I ended doing. I applied a light coat to the groves on the side plates 1st, set the coolant seals in place, then brushed the seals w/another coat.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

****, now me and Kevin can call each other idiots all day!

apsolus

iTrader: (2)

question, i finally got my parts motor torn down and it seems like ive got the upgraded corner seal springs and one piece corner seals which is nice. nothing looks bad either, the rotors are in great shape so can i reuse the apex seals? what should i be looking for here? they seem to be fine. i know i should replaceb the side seals because they will be going on my rotors and not the turbo rotors in my parts motor. so a gasket set and some side seals?? im looking at atkinsrotary now and they have a level A rebuild kit for around 600 then the price jumps up to 1200 for apex seals, side seals and stuff. so who knows what is reuable and what isnt?

apsolus

iTrader: (2)

bump

tuscanidream

iTrader: (6)

Wear specs can be found in the technical data section of the factory service manual. Do a google search or pm me your email address and I'll send it to you.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

why would you want to reuse the apex seals on an engine that had low compression? these are reasons why less than 50% of DIY rebuilds do not last for more than 1,000 miles.

i also wouldn't recommend atkins apex seals for a turbo motor, any sort of lean condition and they will be coming out the exhaust and engine out of the engine bay. if you're keeping it n/a they will work fine, the apex seal set is only $200 so it can solely be added to the kits. they do however have OE wear characteristics which are good.

the FSM can be downloaded at foxed.ca

bpdchief

iTrader: (7)

Go with new side seals, new apex seals, new apex seal springs and a soft seal kit from Atkins.