Should I pour ATF into the rotor housings?
01-06-07, 12:26 AM
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Should I pour ATF into the rotor housings?
I am about to finally finish my fuel system (what a nightmare)... My car has sat for almost 2 months... Do I need to pour ATF into the rotor housings or regular oil...? Should I do nothing at all or is there something I should do before starting my car after sitting that long...?
Thank you,
Randal
Thank you,
Randal
01-06-07, 12:39 AM
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I have read in this forum that you are supposed to pour a cap full of atf into the rotor housing to try to help build compression... I am not doing that ofcourse... I have great compression... I am just trying to make sure it stays that way when I start the car for the first time in 2 months...
**
So pouring a little oil into the housings would be okay...?
**
So pouring a little oil into the housings would be okay...?
01-06-07, 12:57 AM
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Originally Posted by DREYKO
dear god dont use atf, use oil if youd like to have an engine next month
I've atf'd over 100 engines in my time, and never had an issue. Motor oil works about as well, but the atf is thinner and seems to work it's way into all the seals just a little better for purposes of combating stuck seals during storage, and to temporarily raise compression to clear a flood.
01-06-07, 04:07 AM
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01-06-07, 09:45 AM
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01-06-07, 11:44 AM
#10
I "lost" my emissions....
The problem is, quite a number of people use the ATF trick as a general cure-all. What they don't realize is that ATF is in fact bad for the engine. ATF is a fairly corrosive liquid, designed for the environment in an automatic transmission. The seals and materials in an automatic transmission are different than those in the working chamber of your engine. While ATF may not be corrosive to the bands, clutches and gaskets in an automatic transmission, it is corrosive to carbon (which is good, and why it cleans the engine) and has been shown to affect the rubber O-rings used to seal the rotor housings together, as well as the o-rings used on the oil seals. ATF attacks all those seals, and if they were marginal to begin with, they will most certainly be ruined by the ATF trick. This is why there are so many complaints that sound like "I did the ATF trick a week ago and now my car smokes and burns oil". The ATF has damaged the seals, allowing oil to leak into the working chamber and be burned off. This is bad, and can only be cured by replacement of the seals, which of course requires disassembly of the engine. Since the ATF trick is most often used on marginal engines to try to increase the performance, problems are fairly common. So using ATF as a general "cure all" or engine cleanout method is not a good thing.
from arron cakes site
from arron cakes site
01-06-07, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Rocky071
01-06-07, 02:54 PM
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Okay... After reading the Article by Aaron; I can say that I will never use ATF in my engine... I will just use a table spoon of weed eater oil in each rotor housing... I am sure that would be fine... Right?
01-06-07, 02:57 PM
#13
just put it together and start the engine... 2 months is not a lifetime, only engines that have been flooded or have severely low compression would need any kind of oil to help build compression.
the more crap you start putting into the engine the more the cat will suffer(if you still have one that is).
the more crap you start putting into the engine the more the cat will suffer(if you still have one that is).
01-07-07, 02:29 AM
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Originally Posted by C.A.R
Okay... After reading the Article by Aaron; I can say that I will never use ATF in my engine...
Originally Posted by Aaron Cake
ATF is a fairly corrosive liquid
I don't know where he got that idea from. ATF is corrosive? Ok, sure. Dump some on your hand and call if it starts to burn. Call collect, even. You might want to wear your pajamas when you do this so you won't have to get changed later while you wait for the smoke to start rising and your flesh to drip off.
ATF is *not* corrosive. Show me a single manufacturer's website, WHMIS sheet or other qualified product/checmical sheet that says that ATF is corrosive. Again, put on your pajamas before you search for this.
ATF does become corrosive if it is "severely overheated." Not at room temperature and not at normal working temperatures inside your transmission as you drive down the road. Synthetic ATF can handle even higher temperatures.
http://www.neosyntheticoil.com/atf.htm
"Corrosion Inhibiting" See that? Guess they forgot to check Aaron's site before they made that page for their product.
it is corrosive to carbon (which is good, and why it cleans the engine)
Originally Posted by mazdaspeed7
ATF, in my personal experience is completely useless, regardless of miles on the motor. It is NOT a good detergent, and does NOT dissolve carbon. I had a carbon caked rotor submerged in a bucket of ATF for a year and a half, and it was still completely covered in carbon.
has been shown to affect the rubber O-rings used to seal the rotor housings together, as well as the o-rings used on the oil seals.
This is why there are so many complaints that sound like "I did the ATF trick a week ago and now my car smokes and burns oil".
Here's what one member who's an enthusiast, used to own a shop and now runs a customization business (engine parts, not stickers :P: ) out of his home had to say when this came up once a few years ago:
Originally Posted by blkrx7
Not trying to step on anyone's toes here...just a few ATF thoughts:
ATF is commonly used in many power steering systems, is used in lieu of brake fluid in hydraulic clutches on some cars (including mine for easily 200k), it used in manual as well as slush boxes all over the place and it comes into contact with plain old in-expensive rubber seals in the following locations:
Axle seals in transmissions (both auto and stick)
Pump seals in PS systems, rack seals, rack bellows (if your unlucky
) and of course, rubber hoses in tranmission coolers and PS lines
Rubber seals on dip-sticks in auto-boxes
Rubber o-rings in transmissions
And those seals/parts last for hundreds of thousands of miles, immersed in hot fluid, with the oil being the only thing between the moving shafts and the rubber seals. It's factory fill on several manufacturers for manual transmissions and power steering.
It comes into contact with nylon in automatic transmission valves, manual transmission shifter bushings.
It's used with aluminum valve bodies, plastic pistons, brass bushings, steel, cast iron, you name it.
However, with all that being said ATF DOES cause rubber to swell upon it's first contact. It's an extremely common "trick" to dump a liter of ATF into a car that has leaky valve seals, or other seals, and let the rubber swell to quell the leak. Depending on the severity of the leak it can stop leaks for years, or not at all. Though I'd just change the seal myself...
It's intended for use in extreme pressure environments, at high temperatures, in excess of a thousand PSI.
It's thinner than most motor-oils, full of detergents, and will burn reasonably well. I pickled my Rotaries for years and years in a row by flooding them with ATF and stalling them out (and one of them had 300+k on the clock). Never had a seal leak ever...
It's used by lots of piston cars to soak combustion chambers in to remove carbon build-up, and in more than a few voodoo ceremonies
I've never seen it attack a seal yet though...anyone have first hand experience with it attacking a seal?
Paul
Edit: Oh, I have had a warm bath in the stuff (accidentally I assure you), had it in my eyes, mouth, nose, you name it. Someone knocked over a drip-pan of the stuff and it hit my square in the kisser.
Apart from a long shower, I was none the worse for the wear, though in the future would probably choose to duck, instead of saying "wah?" when it's on the way down
ATF is commonly used in many power steering systems, is used in lieu of brake fluid in hydraulic clutches on some cars (including mine for easily 200k), it used in manual as well as slush boxes all over the place and it comes into contact with plain old in-expensive rubber seals in the following locations:
Axle seals in transmissions (both auto and stick)
Pump seals in PS systems, rack seals, rack bellows (if your unlucky
) and of course, rubber hoses in tranmission coolers and PS linesRubber seals on dip-sticks in auto-boxes
Rubber o-rings in transmissions
And those seals/parts last for hundreds of thousands of miles, immersed in hot fluid, with the oil being the only thing between the moving shafts and the rubber seals. It's factory fill on several manufacturers for manual transmissions and power steering.
It comes into contact with nylon in automatic transmission valves, manual transmission shifter bushings.
It's used with aluminum valve bodies, plastic pistons, brass bushings, steel, cast iron, you name it.
However, with all that being said ATF DOES cause rubber to swell upon it's first contact. It's an extremely common "trick" to dump a liter of ATF into a car that has leaky valve seals, or other seals, and let the rubber swell to quell the leak. Depending on the severity of the leak it can stop leaks for years, or not at all. Though I'd just change the seal myself...
It's intended for use in extreme pressure environments, at high temperatures, in excess of a thousand PSI.
It's thinner than most motor-oils, full of detergents, and will burn reasonably well. I pickled my Rotaries for years and years in a row by flooding them with ATF and stalling them out (and one of them had 300+k on the clock). Never had a seal leak ever...
It's used by lots of piston cars to soak combustion chambers in to remove carbon build-up, and in more than a few voodoo ceremonies
I've never seen it attack a seal yet though...anyone have first hand experience with it attacking a seal?
Paul
Edit: Oh, I have had a warm bath in the stuff (accidentally I assure you), had it in my eyes, mouth, nose, you name it. Someone knocked over a drip-pan of the stuff and it hit my square in the kisser.
Apart from a long shower, I was none the worse for the wear, though in the future would probably choose to duck, instead of saying "wah?" when it's on the way down
The only thing that page appears to do is to try to replace one myth with another.
01-07-07, 02:32 AM
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Dude.. ATF is like ACID.......... It burns through steel...
But, I use Castrol Thermite Pro.... Has a funny sting to it if it gets on your skin, but I think its cleansing properties are worth it.
But, I use Castrol Thermite Pro.... Has a funny sting to it if it gets on your skin, but I think its cleansing properties are worth it.
01-07-07, 06:33 AM
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Originally Posted by micaheli
Dude.. ATF is like ACID.......... It burns through steel...
But, I use Castrol Thermite Pro.... Has a funny sting to it if it gets on your skin, but I think its cleansing properties are worth it.
But, I use Castrol Thermite Pro.... Has a funny sting to it if it gets on your skin, but I think its cleansing properties are worth it.
01-07-07, 10:13 AM
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I'm not going to bother to address each point in turn. That page was written primarily because of my own experiments with ATF. After watching it basically gellify an oil control o-ring, and turn a water o-ring to goo, I wrote that page. Now it did take several months for this to happen so if you are just using ATF to start the engine then it's not a big deal since it will burn off quickly. But if the engine ends up sitting (as they often can when there is a problem like this) then the residual ATF can cause the problems I mention.
I've also done an experiment with a carbon caked rotor after someone else did a similar experiment on the 1st gen forum. One face of the rotor was coated with ATF, one with oven cleaner, and one with solvent. ATF didn't touch the carbon, the solvent softened it a little, and the oven cleaner took it all off.
Sine oil works as well as ATF, I don't see the need to put ATF into the engine. If you are worried about viscosity, then use a thinner oil.
I've also done an experiment with a carbon caked rotor after someone else did a similar experiment on the 1st gen forum. One face of the rotor was coated with ATF, one with oven cleaner, and one with solvent. ATF didn't touch the carbon, the solvent softened it a little, and the oven cleaner took it all off.
Sine oil works as well as ATF, I don't see the need to put ATF into the engine. If you are worried about viscosity, then use a thinner oil.
01-08-07, 12:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Amur_
Ok, let's go over this.
B/c we all know that corrosive liquids are the best kind to use for lubricating moving gears and shafts, right?
I don't know where he got that idea from. ATF is corrosive? Ok, sure. Dump some on your hand and call if it starts to burn. Call collect, even. You might want to wear your pajamas when you do this so you won't have to get changed later while you wait for the smoke to start rising and your flesh to drip off.
ATF is *not* corrosive. Show me a single manufacturer's website, WHMIS sheet or other qualified product/checmical sheet that says that ATF is corrosive. Again, put on your pajamas before you search for this.
ATF does become corrosive if it is "severely overheated." Not at room temperature and not at normal working temperatures inside your transmission as you drive down the road. Synthetic ATF can handle even higher temperatures.
http://www.neosyntheticoil.com/atf.htm
"Corrosion Inhibiting" See that? Guess they forgot to check Aaron's site before they made that page for their product.
Wrong.
And he's not the only one who's tried to use ATF to clean carbon in a place where he can see results.
"Shown to affect"? Affect = cause to swell slightly at first contact. Affect meaning attack like a super acid and turn your poor seals, gaskets, spark plugs and any neeary kittens in bubbling pools of acrid goo? FAIL.
Show me a single one. And then prove to me that this failure was solely due to putting ATF into the engine. Again, pajamas optional.
Here's what one member who's an enthusiast, used to own a shop and now runs a customization business (engine parts, not stickers :P: ) out of his home had to say when this came up once a few years ago:
See this? "I pickled my Rotaries for years and years in a row by flooding them with ATF and stalling them out (and one of them had 300+k on the clock). Never had a seal leak ever..." Must be some magical engines he had there, right? I don't think so.
The only thing that page appears to do is to try to replace one myth with another.
B/c we all know that corrosive liquids are the best kind to use for lubricating moving gears and shafts, right?
I don't know where he got that idea from. ATF is corrosive? Ok, sure. Dump some on your hand and call if it starts to burn. Call collect, even. You might want to wear your pajamas when you do this so you won't have to get changed later while you wait for the smoke to start rising and your flesh to drip off.
ATF is *not* corrosive. Show me a single manufacturer's website, WHMIS sheet or other qualified product/checmical sheet that says that ATF is corrosive. Again, put on your pajamas before you search for this.
ATF does become corrosive if it is "severely overheated." Not at room temperature and not at normal working temperatures inside your transmission as you drive down the road. Synthetic ATF can handle even higher temperatures.
http://www.neosyntheticoil.com/atf.htm
"Corrosion Inhibiting" See that? Guess they forgot to check Aaron's site before they made that page for their product.
Wrong.
And he's not the only one who's tried to use ATF to clean carbon in a place where he can see results.
"Shown to affect"? Affect = cause to swell slightly at first contact. Affect meaning attack like a super acid and turn your poor seals, gaskets, spark plugs and any neeary kittens in bubbling pools of acrid goo? FAIL.
Show me a single one. And then prove to me that this failure was solely due to putting ATF into the engine. Again, pajamas optional.
Here's what one member who's an enthusiast, used to own a shop and now runs a customization business (engine parts, not stickers :P: ) out of his home had to say when this came up once a few years ago:
See this? "I pickled my Rotaries for years and years in a row by flooding them with ATF and stalling them out (and one of them had 300+k on the clock). Never had a seal leak ever..." Must be some magical engines he had there, right? I don't think so.
The only thing that page appears to do is to try to replace one myth with another.
That is on hell of a quote...
***
I got news for you... Water is corosive... Yet... Unless it was sitting on the stove over a burner that was turned on or just came fresh out of a hotwater heater; It usually does not burn your skin... Corosive does not mean that it turns every thing to ashes the moment it makes contact with it... It may be harmless to some things and destroy others... This would be known as a chemical reaction... We learned about this in 7th grade... I quit reading your entry after a few lines... Thats all I got...
**
I will take Arron's word for it and I will use oil... I would much rather be safe than sorry...
01-08-07, 02:13 AM
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Originally Posted by C.A.R
^^^
That is on hell of a quote...
***
I got news for you... Water is corosive... Yet... Unless it was sitting on the stove over a burner that was turned on or just came fresh out of a hotwater heater; It usually does not burn your skin... Corosive does not mean that it turns every thing to ashes the moment it makes contact with it... It may be harmless to some things and destroy others... This would be known as a chemical reaction... We learned about this in 7th grade... I quit reading your entry after a few lines... Thats all I got...
**
I will take Arron's word for it and I will use oil... I would much rather be safe than sorry...
That is on hell of a quote...
***
I got news for you... Water is corosive... Yet... Unless it was sitting on the stove over a burner that was turned on or just came fresh out of a hotwater heater; It usually does not burn your skin... Corosive does not mean that it turns every thing to ashes the moment it makes contact with it... It may be harmless to some things and destroy others... This would be known as a chemical reaction... We learned about this in 7th grade... I quit reading your entry after a few lines... Thats all I got...
**
I will take Arron's word for it and I will use oil... I would much rather be safe than sorry...
Umm talking about how corrosive does not mean that it turns everything to ashes and that stuff...ATF *could* be corrosive after sometime, however that needs to be proved. If your putting in LOADS of ATF in your engine, i think theres a bigger problem. Again, it HAS NOT been proved that ATF eats seals, theres is no solid factual proof that ATF eats seals, specifically in our Rotary engines. and in case it has been proved can someone show me the source (note: hearsay, or experiments without given the procedure, what was the control/variable, results, etc etc dont count).
Aaroncake himself states that it took MONTHS for it to "gellify an oil control o-ring, and turn a water o-ring to goo". He also states (as in your original question/comment: that since the engine has been sitting for 2 months if it needs ATF to aid it in starting for sitting for that long), he states that "so if you are just using ATF to start the engine then it's not a big deal since it will burn off quickly." So even he says it should not be a big deal since its gonna burn off quickly.
Have you actually been reading peoples comments, i mean the "genius" stated it shouldnt be a big deal? Oh wait you answered that one for me...
Originally Posted by C.A.R
I quit reading your entry after a few lines... Thats all I got...
BHopefully you have actually read it this far.
01-08-07, 04:04 PM
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Thank you for your science lesson on distilled water... All I wanted to know is if I need to lube my engine since it had set for a little while... All I was saying in my previous post was that a corrosive substance does not have to burn skin as the previous gentleman had indicated... Google (with quotes) "corrosive properties of water"... I dont care about distilled water... It does not rain distilled water... Distilled water is unaturually processed water... Again... I thank you for your science/chemistry lesson... And again... I will just use oil since it will serve the same purpose with out the risk...
01-08-07, 04:20 PM
#25
Originally Posted by Aaron Cake
I'm not going to bother to address each point in turn. That page was written primarily because of my own experiments with ATF. After watching it basically gellify an oil control o-ring, and turn a water o-ring to goo, I wrote that page. Now it did take several months for this to happen so if you are just using ATF to start the engine then it's not a big deal since it will burn off quickly. But if the engine ends up sitting (as they often can when there is a problem like this) then the residual ATF can cause the problems I mention.
I've also done an experiment with a carbon caked rotor after someone else did a similar experiment on the 1st gen forum. One face of the rotor was coated with ATF, one with oven cleaner, and one with solvent. ATF didn't touch the carbon, the solvent softened it a little, and the oven cleaner took it all off.
Sine oil works as well as ATF, I don't see the need to put ATF into the engine. If you are worried about viscosity, then use a thinner oil.
I've also done an experiment with a carbon caked rotor after someone else did a similar experiment on the 1st gen forum. One face of the rotor was coated with ATF, one with oven cleaner, and one with solvent. ATF didn't touch the carbon, the solvent softened it a little, and the oven cleaner took it all off.
Sine oil works as well as ATF, I don't see the need to put ATF into the engine. If you are worried about viscosity, then use a thinner oil.
